Was there an alternative to the Red Wedding?

[Onime]

The Red Wedding. Stark fans see it as a horrible crime, while many Lannister fans see it as a prime example for Tywin's genius. Tyrion’s reaction to the news from the Twins was rather doubtful, which leads me to the question if there was actually another way to bring the North back under the control of the Iron Throne, which would have prevented a long and costly war. I mean Tyrion isn't known for many scruples in political matters (Silver Tongue, kidnapping his own innocent nephew, thinking about whipping this innocent nephew bloody so that he doesn't appear weak etc.).

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[Lord Freypie]

The time it would have taken for the Starks to expell the Ironborns (and eventually deal with a Ramsay Bolton's rebellion), the Lannister-Tyrell alliance having 3 or 4 times their forces, could well have retaken all the Riverlands (especially with Frey support if they still betrayed some time after the wedding). At best Robb would have had to break the siege of Riverrun another time (at worse be stopped at the Twins).

Now where Tywin is right, is it would have been even more costly in terms of human lives, it would just have been better for Freys (and in a lesser extent Lannisters) image.

And far more if Robb finally abandonned the riverlords and decided to defend the North from Moat Callin (it could then have been a decade long stalemate, with winter coming and all, and have given a chance for Robb to conclude alliances with say the Vale and Dorne).

[Maid So Fair]

Several - the ones that spring to mind:

1, an old-fashioned military campaign - Robb's host has dwindled quite a bit since the start of the war so the Lannister/Tyrell/Frey/Bolton alliance could easily have overpowered him with minimal casualties as long as they can deny him passage North. Worst case scenario you wait till he's on the causeway to Moat Cailin and take him from the rear.

2, If you truly want to play dirty then just have Robb assassinated. Have Sybell slip a poison into his tea or something. Freys, Boltons, etc all have access to Robb.

3, You have won. Sue for peace, offering generous terms. Insist Robb abdicates in favour of Sansa or something.

[RoamingRonin]

Tywin didn't plot the Red Wedding. Tywin wanted Robb Stark shot with a crossbow at Edmure Tully's wedding east. Lame Lothar Frey and Roose Bolton plot the wedding (with Lord Walder and other Freys cooperating, obviously).

Tywin's plan was better.

[Onime]

2, If you truly want to play dirty then just have Robb assassinated. Have Sybell slip a poison into his tea or something. Freys, Boltons, etc all have access to Robb.

That solution came also to my mind. Probably "too undramatic" for Martin...

[Janicia]

Tywin knew the realm was fragile. He must have suspected that eventually Dorne would do something anti-Lannister. Populist movements like the BWB were dangerous, as was the antipathy of the citizens of Kings Landing toward their king. He must also have been concerned about the things Stannis, Joffrey, Cersei, Tyrion, Mace, Varys, and Littlefinger could get up to while Tywin was busy dealing with Robb.

Tywin was facing a lot of pressure to end the war fast. Too many things could go wrong if the war dragged on. But yeah, the Red Wedding was incredibly inflammatory and that was a choice.

[Mladen]

RW most certainly wasn't a move of political genius. What was done in Twins is a horrible precedent that now puts in danger Westerosi diplomacy... Simply, now, that these things are allowed, do you all think anyone will ever trust the opposing side. The "guest right" isn't just a custom, it is one of the most sacred law in Westeros and breaking it shows that these things really are acceptable. Let we say in future that two lords go into some conflict, and they want to negotiate. They send envoys, perhaps they meet each other... With this kind of behavior allowed, these things simply aren't possible anymore. And the worst is, the RW, through this, will kill more people than we could imagine. If people don't trust each other that some basic rules are going to be honored, then we will have more wars than before. That is why whomever comes to power in Westeros should utterly punish the perpetrators of RW. While the unpunished precedent exists, the peace in future conflicts will never be possible.

And, well, instead of having one enemy - House Stark, Tywin got half the realm to basically becomes their enemies, with quite the good cause for hatred, and those who are on other side, simply won't even try to reason with Lannisters anymore. His House will bleed because of this.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It was pure idiocy. A twenty-years long war to conquer the North, even letting the North secede, would have been better.

Because now there won't be treaties with Lannisters anymore. And without treaties being possible, every enemy will have one thought: "Save your own children - kill theirs!"

For as long as the Red Wedding stays in memory, the Lannisters have to utterly win any conflict or be exterminated. At least the branches connected to the Red Wedding. And it's feudalism: They are bound to loose some conflicts.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

There is always an alternative .

1Continue the war with a Lannister ,Tyrell , Greyjoy alliance .Pull off disaffected banner men like the Freys and the Karstarks or ambitious ones like the Boltons . it will take time but end honorably .

2 Secretly support the union between Robb and Jeyne Westerling but send spies and maesters who support the crown to Riverrun and when she is with child poison him offer Catelyn a pardon if she bends a knee . It would place Lannister blood in the North .

3 Another purple wedding .

But the best for the Lannisters was the Red Wedding . The war ended while the Frey and the Boltons gets the blame .

[Maid So Fair]

It was pure idiocy. A twenty-years long war to conquer the North, even letting the North secede, would have been better.

Because now there won't be treaties with Lannisters anymore. And without treaties being possible, every enemy will have one thought: "Save your own children - kill theirs!"

For as long as the Red Wedding stays in memory, the Lannisters have to utterly win any conflict or be exterminated. At least the branches connected to the Red Wedding. And it's feudalism: They are bound to loose some conflicts.

I think the only 'clever' part about the RW from Lannister perspective that they seem to be going out of their way to distance themselves from it and seem to be succeeding. Tywin might be the one who benefited the most, but it's Walder Frey who has become universally hated (even Roose seems to have somehow escaped the brunt of the PR fiasco). There's also the fact that they weren't there and didn't kill anybody or break the guest right themselves. Jaime is taking further steps to alleviate the damage by basically leaving the Freys without any leverage and distancing himself from them. Whether this strategy ultimately works or whether people put two and two together remains to be seen but so far it's the Freys who got screwed over rather than the Lannisters.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Sure, plenty of alternatives. By the way, I reject the "ended a long and costly war" argument.The Red Wedding didn't bring peace. Only superficial, temporary appearances of peace - and powerful yearnings for vengeance. Faux peace crumbles already, a moment from now will shatter entirely, crows will feast again.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Without Tyrion putting a bolt through Tywin, the RW goes unanswered for a generation or two.

[Maid So Fair]

Without Tyrion putting a bolt through Tywin, the RW goes unanswered for a generation or two.

Except you have Lady Stoneheart hanging Freys and the Purple Wedding in the same book.

[Onime]

As Maid So Fair said; Bolton and Frey getting all the blame for the RW, while the Lannisters getting all the benefit. Don't forget: Tywin's interference is known only to a little circle of people (Bolton, Frey, Tyrion and probably Varys and LF). Frey being mad at Robb for forsaking his oath seems pretty plausible to the majority of Westeros. And the damage for the diplomacy isn't THAT big, I guess. The Freys are known to break the rules of honor (Late Walder). :lol:

[The Wolves]

The Freys are not only getting the blame for the RW, the Boltons are not even associated with the RW.

The Lannisters do get blame for the RW they're mentioned several times as having been connected to the RW even the royal counsel mentioned how people are whispering the Lannisters' part in the RW.

Of course people would associate the Lannisters with the RW only monsters like them would have a hand in such a taboo treacherous atrocious crime. People know the type of underhand tricks the Lannisters use to get their way.

[Onime]

Really? I can't remember that. The RW isn't a big deal in the most parts of the south anyway. Robb was feared as barbarian conqueror and not as liberator from the "terrible Lannister-regime".

Edit: And after the rise of the Faith, the majority of the southerners see him also as a kind of heathen, I think.

[The Wolves]

Really? I can't remember that. The RW isn't a big deal in the most parts of the south anyway. Robb was feared as barbarian conqueror and not as liberator from the "terrible Lannister-regime".

Robb was not a feared conqueror some smallfolk were even shouting his name in Kings Landing(they never shouted for any Lannisters)he wasn't universally loved but he wasn't hated by many.

People hate the Lannisters they have enemies everywhere I doubt Robb was as diiked as the Lannisters.

And yeah people do mention that they suspect the Lannisters involvement in the RW Cersei's counsel even hinted that the people were angry about it and wanted retribution and she in her ignorance said that the Lannisters had nothing to do with it and it was obvious that her counsel thought otherwise.

[Onime]

KL had a famine at that time. People were even shouting Renly's name though he was responsible for their suffering. And as I said in my last post; The public opinion has greatly changed since ACoK. I doubt the numerous followers of the HS care much about a death heaven.

[Dolorous22]

Killing everybody was short sighted and over zealous. They could of tamed the Starks and by extension, the North. Simply capture Robb rather than kill him and the day is yours. Send Cat back to WF (after a rebuild) install her as Warden and keep Robb hostage at the twins. Cat would do "anything" for her children and would of cooperated.

Instead, petty revenge took over and the consequence is civil disorder in both the North and the Riverlands.

In fact, it could get even worse than civil disorder, depending on whether you believe there is significance to the Starks being in Winterfell in regards to the Wall and the long night/others etc.

[Onime]

Killing everybody was short sighted and over zealous. They could of tamed the Starks and by extension, the North. Simply capture Robb rather than kill him and the day is yours. Send Cat back to WF (after a rebuild) install her as Warden and keep Robb hostage at the twins. Cat would do "anything" for her children and would of cooperated.

The best alternative I've seen so far, but as you said; With opportunists like Walder Frey and Roose Bolton as accomplices there is no way that it'd work.