Free Northman Reborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 What does that have to do with the fact that it's monumentally stupid? Well in a world that thrives on battle, having the toughest practice sessions can easily be a good thing. I bet the Ironborn don't hold back much either when engaging in "friendly" sparring. Neither do the Dothraki. The more violent the culture, likely the greater their preparation for real battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Well in a world that thrives on battle, having the toughest practice sessions can easily be a good thing. I bet the Ironborn don't hold back much either when engaging in "friendly" sparring. Neither do the Dothraki. The more violent the culture, likely the greater their preparation for real battle. Beyond a certain point, no, it's not helpful to train so intensively that it kills your own men at higher rates. The Northmen aren't any tougher, man for man, than anybody else in the Seven Kingdoms. There's a rather pointed scene where Arya, who believed that, learns that it's just a boast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 That's a mischaracterization, since we know from the text that there have been several southern brides and two southern husbands for the Starks in the last 200 years, including the attempt to marry a Targaryen. If anything, this book clearly shows that Barbrey Dustin was speaking only from her own bitterness when she said otherwise in ADWD. He split his men in a prior battle, but as Yandel notes, each of those forces ran into troubles and took casualties, even if the dragons ultimately prevailed. So why not gather everybody for a show of force. He didn't send Visenya and Rhaenys to conquer the Vale and Dorne singlehandedly; he sent them, basically, as messengers/negotiators. He took his army with him to Oldtown. The field of fire and the burning of HarrenHall wasnt enough of a show of force?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 The field of fire and the burning of HarrenHall wasnt enough of a show of force?? Seeing as Torrhen's army is marching, clearly not. It wasn't until they arrived and actually saw Aegon's huge army and the might of his dragons that he realized how screwed he was. Aegon was simply making effective use of his resources, and learning from the pitfalls of earlier campaigns. And it paid off to great effect, as he forced the North to surrender without losing any of his own men, a greater result than even the Field of Fire. Certainly in the current generation the Northmen seem to be going through a particularly soft patch (the Greatjon being a notable exception, of course). However from the histories the Northmen seem to be some badass characters indeed. Such people exist in all of the kingdoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Beyond a certain point, no, it's not helpful to train so intensively that it kills your own men at higher rates. The Northmen aren't any tougher, man for man, than anybody else in the Seven Kingdoms. There's a rather pointed scene where Arya, who believed that, learns that it's just a boast. Certainly in the current generation the Northmen seem to be going through a particularly soft patch (the Greatjon being a notable exception, of course). However from the histories the Northmen seem to be some badass characters indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I don't see how the Northerners being morons who played their sports competitions (which is what the tournaments essentially are) with a much increased possibility of injuring and killing each other stupidly and with no reason at times of peace, is something to praise them for. Winter is Coming, the weak don't live I guess. Incentivises boys to get tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Seeing as Torrhen's army is marching, clearly not. It wasn't until they arrived and actually saw Aegon's huge army and the might of his dragons that he realized how screwed he was. Aegon was simply making effective use of his resources, and learning from the pitfalls of earlier campaigns. And it paid off to great effect, as he forced the North to surrender without losing any of his own men, a greater result than even the Field of Fire. Such people exist in all of the kingdoms. Well that scene only seems to affect Torrhen(who seems like a weakling) - His bannermen wanted to charge thinking "Northern Valor" would carry the day(I'm guessing this was a Umber). His brother wanted to single-handedly kill all 3 dragons and his sons wanted to rebel whether Torrhen wanted to or not. His own soldiers got angry and left westeros into exile to form the Company of the Rose. Pretty bad for a display of force by Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Upon initial read, I have to agree with those who've said Dorne! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Well that scene only seems to affect Torrhen(who seems like a weakling) - His bannermen wanted to charge thinking "Northern Valor" would carry the day(I'm guessing this was a Umber). His brother wanted to single-handedly kill all 3 dragons and his sons wanted to rebel whether Torrhen wanted to or not. His own soldiers got angry and left westeros into exile to form the Company of the Rose. Pretty bad for a display of force by Aegon. You'll notice that Torrhen's sons never actually got around to rebeling. Aegon's show of force achieved everything he could have wanted. The fact that some people in the North continued to resent it is irrelevant; the losing side pretty much always does that. Torrhen seems like a smart man, not a "weakling". Given that the series is a scathing depiction of the pitfalls of uber-macho medieval culture, I'm unclear why ordering a suicidal assault that is guaranteed to kill thousands of men is the "strong" thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 You'll notice that Torrhen's sons never actually got around to rebeling. Aegon's show of force achieved everything he could have wanted. The fact that some people in the North continued to resent it is irrelevant; the losing side pretty much always does that. Torrhen seems like a smart man, not a "weakling". Given that the series is a scathing depiction of the pitfalls of uber-macho medieval culture, I'm unclear why ordering a suicidal assault that is guaranteed to kill thousands of men is the "strong" thing to do. George does not seem to depict Theon Stark particularly scathingly for his actions as the only First Man King we know of to take the "suicidal" route of actually building a fleet and sailing it to Andalos itself, to go and kill the Andals on their own turf, superior technology notwithstanding? EDIT In fact, the likes of Eddard and Torhenn appear to indeed be the "weakling" odd ones out in the long Stark history. The exceptions to the Stark norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 George does not seem to depict Theon Stark particularly scathingly for his actions as the only First Man King we know of to take the "suicidal" route of actually building a fleet and sailing it to Andalos itself, to go and kill the Andals on their own turf, superior technology notwithstanding? EDIT In fact, the likes of Eddard and Torhenn appear to indeed be the "weakling" odd ones out in the long Stark history. The exceptions to the Stark norm. That assumes that GRRM and co. agree with the medieval conceptions of morality, which he rather obviously doesn't. Otherwise you would have to assume he endorses all the various wartime atrocities committed by al these kings and generals. Which is rather at odds with his being a pacifist. ASOIAF, again and again, shows the folly of war and the virtues of peacemakers (who are so often ignored). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 You'll notice that Torrhen's sons never actually got around to rebeling. Aegon's show of force achieved everything he could have wanted. The fact that some people in the North continued to resent it is irrelevant; the losing side pretty much always does that. Torrhen seems like a smart man, not a "weakling". Given that the series is a scathing depiction of the pitfalls of uber-macho medieval culture, I'm unclear why ordering a suicidal assault that is guaranteed to kill thousands of men is the "strong" thing to do. You say that but I have a feeling we are going to end up pitying Torrhen for not having faith in Brandon Snow. We are not told about the unused arrows for no reason. They are sure to come back into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 That assumes that GRRM and co. agree with the medieval conceptions of morality, which he rather obviously doesn't. Otherwise you would have to assume he endorses all the various wartime atrocities committed by al these kings and generals. Well, your logic is a bit circular here. First you say that George depicts medieval macho-heroism scathingly. And yet, when I show you examples of where such an approach achieves great success, you say that the depiction does not necessarily agree with Martin's views. Which basically makes Martin's views irrelevant in the context of the story itself. Certainly, he seems to depict Dorne quite heroically for their bloody defiance of the Targaryens, despite the thousands upon thousands of lives it cost. In my view, Martin does not let his personal views influence the story here. Some warlords he depicts as achieving great success - like Aegon the Conqueror, Theon Stark, Nymeria etc., others he depicts as failing miserably, like Garen of Rhoyne and his quarter million men. I don't think Martin hints at any value judgment on whether Torhenn's way was better than that of Dorne. He let's us decide for ourselves. And it differs in each situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Well, your logic is a bit circular here. First you say that George depicts medieval macho-heroism scathingly. And yet, when I show you examples of where such an approach achieves great success, you say that the depiction does not necessarily agree with Martin's views. That's the thing: "success" is inherently a questionable thing in these stories. Tywin Lannister had great success, and is praised to the skies in this book, but we spend quite a few chapters of ASOIAF seeing the horrors that Tywin unleashes. You say that but I have a feeling we are going to end up pitying Torrhen for not having faith in Brandon Snow. We are not told about the unused arrows for no reason. They are sure to come back into play. Yes, I'm sure that there are some 300-year-old arrows just lying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Yes, I'm sure that there are some 300-year-old arrows just lying around.Not the exact arrows LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennis of the Brown Shield Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Except that people regularly die in theirs - suggesting much more brutal competitions. They are described as being just this side of a battle leaving fields trampled and villages half torn down - doesnt sound anything like a southern melee to me Sounds just like historical melees, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Torrhen seems like a smart man, not a "weakling". Given that the series is a scathing depiction of the pitfalls of uber-macho medieval culture, I'm unclear why ordering a suicidal assault that is guaranteed to kill thousands of men is the "strong" thing to do. Torrhen the Wise should be his name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 North Dorne everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukle Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I haven't finished reading the book yet but I found that the section on the North was the most fascinating for me. Perhaps it's because of their cultural differences, so the stories of the other regions are somewhat intertwined. That said, I didn't realise that the Reach used to be separate kingdoms (it was probably mentioned and just went over my head throughout the series). Of course, I do have the bias most seem to have for the Starks. There's something fascinating about a people who are happy with their lot despite the hardships of their region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 The Vale. Battle of the Seven Stars was enthralling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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