Jeyne of Oldstones

[XSarellaX]

Anyone else got the feeling that there is something important about her? Maybe it's the way she's portrayed: found amidst ruins, considered half mad by the smallfolk...

"(...) Duncan became enamored of a strange, lovely, ans mysterious girls who called herself Jenny of Oldstones in 239 AC, whilst traveling in the Riverlands. Though she dwelt half-wild amidst ruins and claimed to descent from the long-vanished kings of the First Man, the smallfolf surrounding villages mocked such tales, insisting she was only some half mad peasant girl, and perhaps even a witch."

"Jenny of Oldstones was accompanied to court by a dwarfish, albino woamn who was reputed to be a woods witch in the riverlands. Lady Jenny herself claimed, in her ignorance, that she was a child of the forest"

I honestly don't know how she could be relevant to the main series, but since Maester Yendel sort of implies she was an ignorant peasant, I think she was quite smart, and knew more than people give her credit for :D

The World Book is really nice and all, I loved receiving the new information, but I think it only fueled my desire for the next books and the tales of Dunk and Egg...

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Baby Dunc came out a blackwood through and through. Surely there was more to Jenny than the Maester knows. She claimed to be a Mudd, lived in the ruins of oldstones. Brought the ghost of high heart to court. They say she was wild, maybe she was from a community living like first men as the wildings and mountain men do. So she looked wild to other people but not to baby Dunc.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Baby Dunc came out a blackwood through and through. Surely there was more to Jenny than the Maester knows. She claimed to be a Mudd, lived in the ruins of oldstones. Brought the ghost of high heart to court. They say she was wild, maybe she was from a community living like first men as the wildings and mountain men do. So she looked wild to other people but not to baby Dunc.

Wild? Perhaps a touch of wolf blood then?

[PhoenixfromAshes]

Maybe the description of her being half mad is just what the other common folk thought about her. Befriending the woods witch might be one of the reasons. Prince Duncan might have seen the true side of her, she's a nonconformist with a good heart.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Wild? Perhaps a touch of wolf blood then?

Half-Wild they said but I doubt she had a Stark parent. We do know there was a battle when The Teagues of the Riverlands tried to surpress the Old Gods in the Riverlands which suggests that more than the Blackwoods are still faithful. They may just be the only nobles.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Jenny was living amongst ruins in the riverlands (presumably Oldstones). She was distrusted and disparaged by the surrounding smallfolk, implying that she was not one of them. She might have had some special powers. She claimed descent from "long-vanished kings of the First Men" - this might or might not refer to House Mudd.

The question as to whether Duncan and Jenny had any children is left open. :drunk:

I found nothing in all this to contradict A Dragonfly Among the Reeds. The bit about Jenny claiming descent from the "long-vanished kings of the First Men" adds a small amount of support, in fact, as does the fact that Jenny was not originally from Oldstones. She is also described as "strange, lovely and mysterious" and a "wild woman of the woods". I think those descriptions might well fit a crannogman, but hey, I'm biased on this.

I do not claim that this confirms A Dragonfly Among the Reeds, of course. It doesn't.

[Lord Varys]

It seems to be unlikely that Jenny and Duncan have any children left alive - if they had any. Most problematic is the fact that Rhaegar is confirmed to be Egg's first great-grandson.

The Blood of the Dragon was assembled there completely, that should also include known cadet branches, i.e. Rhaelle and Steffon (the two people leaning upon another on the Summerhall picture could Aerys and Steffon - Rhaella is giving birth in the foreground), Duncan and Jenny and their children, Maegor and his children, Jaehaerys and Shaera, Aerys and Rhaella, the Targaryen-Tarths (Lord Selwyn may know something about Summerhall), even Vaella the Simple, if she was still alive.

We know that Aerys and Rhaella, and Jaehaerys and Shaera survived. Steffon and Aemon, too, if he they were there. But all the others should have died. And if Duncan's children were all there, they could have not conceived any children thereafter - but, of course, we don't know if they existed or were there.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

It seems to be unlikely that Jenny and Duncan have any children left alive - if they had any. Most problematic is the fact that Rhaegar is confirmed to be Egg's first great-grandson.

The Blood of the Dragon was assembled there completely, that should also include known cadet branches...

That's not what tWoIaF says. Here are the quotes.

Yandel's text

... In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, there to celebrate...

Gyldayn's fragment

... the blood of the dragon gathered in one...

There's nothing about "all the blood" or "completely" in these sources. There's nothing about cadet branches. Just "many" of Aegon V's closest ... whatevers. Relatives? Friends? Advisors? But if Aegon V put forth a call for all the descendants of Aegon the Conqueror to gather at Summerhall, it would be such an unprecedented event that Yandel would not have described it as "many of those closest to him."

Gyldayn's fragment might very well refer to actual blood gathered in one ... dish, cup, vessel. It depends on how Egg interpreted it. Even if it refers to descendants, there is nothing that implies ... all the blood of the dragon gathered in one... .

[Ibbison from Ibben]

As to ages of the oldest great-grandchild, Duncan married in 239, and Jaehaerys married in 240. I see no problem with Jaehaerys' first grandson (Rhaegar) being born a bit sooner than Duncan's (whom the hypothesis proposes to be Howland).

BTW - Jenny might well have survived Summerhall, then went mad afterwards. In the aSoS epilogue, Tom sings:

High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts...

[Lord Varys]

Oh, that Jenny quote is interesting!

I took it that blood of the dragon quote referred to 'one place', and that would have then included quite a lot of people. Although that's not clear.

However, we also know that Summerhall cut down the tree of House Targaryen down to two lonely branches. That would be, I imagine, Aerys/Rhaella, and Steffon.

If any children of Duncan's had survived Summerhall, surely they would have played a role at court in those dire times.

[Moondancer]

As to ages of the oldest great-grandchild, Duncan married in 239, and Jaehaerys married in 240. I see no problem with Jaehaerys' first grandson (Rhaegar) being born a bit sooner than Duncan's (whom the hypothesis proposes to be Howland).

BTW - Jenny might well have survived Summerhall, then went mad afterwards. In the aSoS epilogue, Tom sings:

High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts...

No, I think the reaction of The Ghost of High Heart is telling the opposite, and loudly at that.

Jenny probably dances with her "ancestors" for she claims she is their [Mudds etc] descendant.

[Lord Varys]

That could also make sense. Jenny could also be a ghost among ghosts in that scene.

[PrettyPig]

No, I think the reaction of The Ghost of High Heart is telling the opposite, and loudly at that.

Jenny probably dances with her "ancestors" for she claims she is their [Mudds etc] descendant.

Agree. I still speculate that Jenny is a Marsh King/Mudd descendant and the GoHH is actually her close relative, like a grandmother. (Arya notes that the GoHH is "older than Old Nan", so I would say at least two generations back from Jenny.) Meaning, Jenny is that unique mix of First Men and CotF. (This also leaves room for Jenny having Reed parentage as proposed in Ibbison's theory.)

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

According to this theory Jenny`s song is the Song of Ice and Fire. http://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/composer-of-prophecy-rhaegars-song-of-love-and-doom/

[Ibbison from Ibben]

If any children of Duncan's had survived Summerhall, surely they would have played a role at court in those dire times.

If Duncan had any sons, and if they survived Summerhall, they would be in a very precarious position. Their father had abdicated as Prince of Dragonstone and Heir to the Throne, and yet served at court (probably for the rest of his life). The rest of the family could trust him not to dispute the succession that he had already chosen to abandon. They might not trust his sons and their sons, though. There would always be the potential that, somewhere down the line, some decedent of Duncan would come to resent his ancestor's decision, and rise up in rebellion. They would always be able to attempt to claim that their descent from the elder line made them the rightful heir. No matter what their intentions, no matter how many oaths they swore, any male descendants of Duncan would be seen as a threat by Jaehaerys' descendants. (And rightfully so.)

Once Aerys came to the throne, (bringing the notoriously brutal Tywin Lannister with him as Hand), any male descendents of Duncan would be utter fools to stay at court. Their only hope for survival would be to reswear their father's oath, and then get out of sight and out of mind. (Greywater Watch is admirably suited for this, of course.) Their absence from historical accounts is entirely understandable.

If they ever existed, of course.

The fragment from Gyldayn could mean many things. We have new info about Summerhall now, though. Aegon had seven eggs, and his purpose in attempting to hatch them was to increase House Targaryen's political power. The people gathered had to include his intended dragon riders, so they could bond with the newly hatched dragons as soon as possible. It would not be in Aegon's interests to allow anyone from other families with dragon blood (Baratheon, Velaryon, Arryn, Plumm, Tarth, Penrose, Martell, Hightower) to bond with any dragons. And it would not be in those house's interests to go along with Aegon's plans to increase Targ power. The people gathered at Summerhall were probably just the proposed dragon riders, plus a few trusted friends like Dunk.

Who were Aegon's dragon riders going to be? Himself, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Aerys, and Rhaella for certain. Maybe Duncan. Perhaps not Duncan's sons (if they existed) for the reasons above. The new baby (Rhaegar)? I'm not sure on that. Still, planning the ceremony to coincide with the birth suggests an attempt at sympathetic magic - one birth stimulating seven more. Crackpot - maybe they threw Rhaegar's placenta on the fire as a blood sacrifice.

So the Gyldayn fragment could be a part of something like this:

So it came to pass that the seven who bore ... the blood of the dragon gathered in one... of the lower halls to start the ceremony.

(Feel free to construct your own versions.)

As to Maegor, If his mother was alive at the time of the Great Council of 233 and had half the brains of your average brick, the moment it became clear he was going to be passed over she would have caught the fastest ship she could find to carry them both across the Narrow Sea.

[Lord Varys]

Do you really think Dunk would have hurt his own nephew?!

We don't know what happened to Maegor. Exile could be a possibility. But he could just as well have stayed in Westeros - if so, he could have died at Summerhall.

I agree somewhat on the sons of Duncan. They would be in a bad position. Which is why I think they did neither exist or not survive Summerhall. The vibe I get from both Jaehaerys' and Aerys' reign is that they were the only Targaryens left, and that's reiterated more than once - two lonely branches, Aerys/Rhaella, and Steffon.

And if Duncan had any daughters surviving Summerhall, then they and their descendants would have come up when Aerys began to search for a bride for Rhaegar.

[Moondancer]

According to this theory Jenny`s song is the Song of Ice and Fire. http://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/composer-of-prophecy-rhaegars-song-of-love-and-doom/

I vaguely remember that George tried writing the song, but the sentiment he tried to convey was off - it wasn't haunting, evocative enough.

I don't think that the Song of Ice and Fire is an actual song - that's Rhae Rhae being Rhae Rhae. :)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Do you really think Dunk would have hurt his own nephew?!

We don't know what happened to Maegor. Exile could be a possibility. But he could just as well have stayed in Westeros - if so, he could have died at Summerhall.

Maegor would have been a plot magnet, the same way Aemon would have been. It really doesn't matter what Egg thought of the kid. Some lord would use Maegor as a figurehead in a rebellion. Or some ally of Aegon's would try to score points by killing the kid. Once Maegor, with the superior claim, had been passed over, he had to run. Just like Aemon, only worse.

Just out of curiosity, have you picked out Dunk and Daella's wedding colors yet? Thou art obsessed. :)

[Lord Varys]

Even Gaemon Palehair survived the Dance, so I imagine child murder is something that happens not all that often in Westeros. Especially not if the child belongs to your own family. More importantly, precious few lords on the Great Council seem to have supported him anyway. If Egg could have raised the child, things may have been very different.

He could have made a septon or maester of Maegor, or sent him to the Wall when he reached a certain age. But I agree that there is chance that he might be connected to Varys/Illyrio.

As of yet, I imagine only a double wedding in 220 AC: Dunk/Daella, and Egg/Betha, following the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

As to the possibility of Duncan and Jenny having daughters, and those daughters and their descendents being considered possible marriage partners for Rhaegar, remember that Yandel does include reasons why they might be rejected, or not even considered

It was true that Aegon had been a friend to the smallfolk, had practically grown up among them, but to countenance the marriage of the heir to the throne to a commoner of uncertain birth was beyond him.

Yandel would have us believe that many, including perhaps Aegon, did not believe Jenny's claim of descent from nobility. I doubt anyone south of the Neck would consider any crannog house to be actually noble. In his description of the crannogmen, Yandel writes

Were the Marsh Kings even truly kings, as we understand it? Archmaester Eyron writes that the crannogmen saw their kings as the first among equals, who were often thought to be touched by the old gods - ....

Yandel's attitude shows some major prejudice toward the crannogman, one that no doubt reflects a widely held belief south of the Neck. It doesn't matter if they are from a noble house; it doesn't matter if they are descended from Kings of Old. They aren't like us, so their nobles aren't real nobles. I dealt with this in some length in my original thesis, so I won't go on.