What is Mel?

[SeanF]

Do you think it is possible that Mell became so attached to the Red Faith because it may have been something she clung to, to keep her sane during shadowbinder training?

The likelihood is that she was a temple prostitute (sex slaves in Volantis have tears tattooed beneath their eyes, and "her tears were of flame"). Quite possibly, she was severely abused prior to entering the service of the Red Temple (in the Show, she tells Gendry she was kicked and beaten, scourged and branded at his age). The memory of her mother screaming her name as she was sold as Lot 7 is clearly very upsetting for her.

Temple prostitutes probably have a better life than most sex slaves in Volantis (such as the one Tyrion

encounters in Selhorys) and the Red Priests obviously saw that she had talents that enabled her to train for the priesthood. So, she is hugely committed to her faith, and very grateful for the opportunities it gave her.

Shadow binding is quit separate from the Red Faith, I think.

[ummester]

Yes SeaF - but I think shadowbinding training is worse - it is that which interests me re Mel's character what did she confront in that training, is what remained afterward still human or not?

[SeanF]

Yes SeaF - but I think shadowbinding training is worse - it is that which interests me re Mel's character what did she confront in that training, is what remained afterward still human or not?

We have very little information about shadow-binding, but, yes, I imagine it's a very dark form of magic, which takes its toll on those who practise it. I'm inclined to think that Mel has never actually died, but has had so much of her humanity taken from her that she can hardly be considered human now.

[ummester]

I mean black, smoky blood dribbling down a woman's thigh can't bode for good things happening internally. Black blood itself is not a good thing, suggesting either death or something very very wrong. Then that it smokes.

The whole thing is that Mel thinks the Red God's fires burn inside of her, or some such - I'd have to read the chapter again. I'm just not sure she fully understands the difference between being possessed and being faithful :D

I wonder (given this is a fantasy story) would a possessed person know they were possessed?

[SeanF]

I mean black, smoky blood dribbling down a woman's thigh can't bode for good things happening internally. Black blood itself is not a good thing, suggesting either death or something very very wrong. Then that it smokes.

The whole thing is that Mel thinks the Red God's fires burn inside of her, or some such - I'd have to read the chapter again. I'm just not sure she fully understands the difference between being possessed and being faithful :D

I wonder (given this is a fantasy story) would a possessed person know they were possessed?

Usually in stories that involve possession the host has some awareness that they've been possessed.

[Diregirl]

I mean black, smoky blood dribbling down a woman's thigh can't bode for good things happening internally. Black blood itself is not a good thing, suggesting either death or something very very wrong. Then that it smokes.

Given that the also swallows a portion of poison that kills another person, it might make sense not to look too closely at the medical/physical side of things. :-)

I don't remember clearly, but doesn't she once tell Jon that it matters which image of yourself you project? As someone who went from a slave to a high priestess of a pretender king, she must have developed a strategy how to seem to be powerful and, as a result, really become powerful. (e.g. always wear your signature color/ruby necklace, always look dignified etc.). It's like she's consciously molded her appearance to convince people of her power, and nobody ever gets to meet the "real" Melisandre.

[MissMatchedEyes]

She doesn't need to eat, doesn't feel the cold, doesn't need to sleep, she's dead. Or undead. Her Ruby gives her power as does fire. You cannot have shadow without light, so fire is one of her weapons, she can create shadow creatures from the flame.

I think she's dead or undead also.

[ummester]

I don't remember clearly, but doesn't she once tell Jon that it matters which image of yourself you project? As someone who went from a slave to a high priestess of a pretender king, she must have developed a strategy how to seem to be powerful and, as a result, really become powerful. (e.g. always wear your signature color/ruby necklace, always look dignified etc.). It's like she's consciously molded her appearance to convince people of her power, and nobody ever gets to meet the "real" Melisandre.

But she didn't just go from a slave to a high priestess to a Stannis supporter, she was a shadowbinder first. More or less the point of this thread, after I read about shadowbinders in TWoIaF (basically they are the most sinister of all the magic users in Asshai, that wear masks to hide their faces from Gods and men and walk in the shadowlands where hideous thing hide in caves).

Quaith is also a shadowbinder and she wears a mask - probably to hide whatever is wrong with shadowbinder faces.

So it got me thinking, what is the real Meisandre?

Slave. Priestess. Ultimate badass kind of sorceress in the ASoIaF universe (which also seems to carry this get an ugly head and walk in the shadows with hideous things price). Now thinks the Red God speaks more directly to her than anyone else and that Stannis is Azor Ahai.

Well, what if her time in Asshai didn't actually put her in commune with the Red God (who may just be an abstraction of Asshai's power anyways) but put her in commune with some type of shadowy/demonic entity (which could be the Red God, who knows?) that has in some way possessed her body, allows her to make freaky shadow babies and has her chasing a prophecy with an nefarious slant?

At the very least I recon she has a scary face under there (which I can't wait to see revealed) and at the most she might actually be working towards setting up a pretty big conflict in Westeros.

[SeanF]

I'm pretty sure she only learned shadow binding after she became a priestess. I doubt if a temple prostitute would be sent to study that magic.

[ummester]

I'm pretty sure she only learned shadow binding after she became a priestess. I doubt if a temple prostitute would be sent to study that magic.

Yes, exactly - she had faith in the Red God and then shadowbinded (communed with demons) but she comes out of the experience still having faith in the Red God?

What does that mean? Did the shadows in Asshai pretend they were the Red God? Are the shadows the Red God?

Even overtly, she goes to Stannis when she sees the comet and starts converting Stannis' people to the Red faith, all the while being able to spawn shadow babies. Either this Red God has more in common with what we would call demonology, or Mel is lying (even to herself) about her faith.

[PlainJeyne]

I don't really think she is dead or undead. I think she could be, like Bloodraven, kept alive for an unnaturally long time through magical means and as a result of this has lost her human needs like sleep and food.

She almost certainly wears a glamour, because no one looks like that and it's too convenient for a fanatical red priestess to be a natural red head with red eyes.

She may share goals with lots of characters, such as Bloodraven, who want to fight the Others, but she is rigid in her belief that it has to be done with complete devotion to the Red God, so she doesn't really see them as allies.

[SeanF]

Yes, exactly - she had faith in the Red God and then shadowbinded (communed with demons) but she comes out of the experience still having faith in the Red God?

What does that mean? Did the shadows in Asshai pretend they were the Red God? Are the shadows the Red God?

Even overtly, she goes to Stannis when she sees the comet and starts converting Stannis' people to the Red faith, all the while being able to spawn shadow babies. Either this Red God has more in common with what we would call demonology, or Mel is lying (even to herself) about her faith.

The Red God apparently grants favours to people who burn human beings alive in his honour. One has to question if such an entity is itself a demon. (Alternatively, live burning releases magical energy that an adept can use).

Someone who thinks that human sacrifice is morally acceptable might well have no qualms about shadow binding. I don't know if other Red Priests consider shadow binding to be morally acceptable or not.

[ummester]

The Red God apparently grants favours to people who burn human beings alive in his honour. One has to question if such an entity is itself a demon. (Alternatively, live burning releases magical energy that an adept can use).

Someone who thinks that human sacrifice is morally acceptable might well have no qualms about shadow binding. I don't know if other Red Priests consider shadow binding to be morally acceptable or not.

And a faith that may not have qualms about human sacrifice is searching for a hero, an Azor Ahai, a lord of light? This faith doesn't notice any contradiction in this?

BTW - I know certain characters, like Davos, do.

What I'm suggesting is that either Mel is a demon in disguise, individually misguided, or that Azor Ahai is not quite the bringer of light that everyone is expecting :D

[SeanF]

And a faith that may not have qualms about human sacrifice is searching for a hero, an Azor Ahai, a lord of light? This faith doesn't notice any contradiction in this?

BTW - I know certain characters, like Davos, do.

What I'm suggesting is that either Mel is misguided, or ultimately, this Azor Ahai may not be quite the bringer of light that everyone is expecting :D

The High Sparrow tells Cersei that R'hllor is a demon. That may not be the general view, as worship of R'hllor is tolerated in Westeros. I would guess that human sacrifice is not practised by the Red Priests in Westeros, prior to Stannis' conversion.

WRT Azhor Ahai, Dany hatches the dragons by means of human sacrifice. She is one candidate for Azhor Ahai reborn.

[ummester]

So the theology in ASoIaF is starting to break down into 3 distinct groups

The 7/Andals and likely humans by connection

R'hllor/fire/dragons and possibly demons by connection

Old Gods/ice/Nights Watch and possibly Others by connection

I'm sure that the theology/magic will come into play much stronger in the conclusion, that the former world of men (across the 7 kingdoms) has been broken down to make way for it. Doesn't look like a conflict that can have any winners, or fulfill a singular hero prophecy in any way though.