jaimereborn Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I just came across this foreshadowing in an early chapter of AGOT, where Sansa sits with Joffrey at the tourney feast. "Then came trout fresh from the river, baked in clay; her prince helped her crack open the hard casing to expose the flaky white flesh within." This seems to be a reference to Stoneheart - a trout being fished from the river, but now encased in clay - Cat, a Tully signified by the trout, died, was thrown in the river, and when she was washed up from it, her heart had turned to stone. The flaky white flesh is also a feature of Stoneheart's appearance: her flesh is described as "the colour of curdled milk" and "her face was shredded skin" and "the flesh of her face clung in ragged strips from her eyes down to her jaw". Indeed GRRM heavily foreshadows both Stoneheart and the Red Wedding throughout the first 3 books - this seems but one of many examples. However, what is interesting and perhaps crucial is that Sansa "helps crack open the hard casing" - could this foreshadow some kind of redemptive arc for Cat? Perhaps Jaime and/or Brienne do succeed in finally finding Sansa and delivering her to her mother, and this reunion sees Sansa successfully reach out to a part of Stoneheart that is still alive as Catelyn, deep inside? Interested to hear people's thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I don't think that's foreshadowing any more than Sansa wishing some hero would cut off Janos Slynt's head (which is NOT foreshadowing, for God's sake). Also, why does Lady Stoneheart even need redemption? What did she even do that was particularly wrong from her POV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaimereborn Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 I don't think that's foreshadowing any more than Sansa wishing some hero would cut off Janos Slynt's head (which is NOT foreshadowing, for God's sake). Also, why does Lady Stoneheart even need redemption? What did she even do that was particularly wrong from her POV? How is the Slynt thing not foreshadowing!? Maybe redeem is the wrong word - I more mean reach out to her human side that is 'Cat' and lay Stoneheart to rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 How is the Slynt thing not foreshadowing!? Maybe redeem is the wrong word - I more mean reach out to her human side that is 'Cat' and lay Stoneheart to rest. GRRM originally made Jon hang Jonos. Then he read it out loud and a fan said Jon would have done what Ned did. "Lay Stoneheart to rest"? So you mean kill her? I'm not being snarky, I really don't understand. I have doubts about whether LS is different from Cat anyways. If Cat had been imprisoned and then escaped and became the leader of the BwB (Beric vanished to join Benjen, OK?), would her behavior have been any different? We see that Beric still remembers parts of his past life although he was resurrected more than half a dozen times, and Beric hasn't undergone a complete character U-turn despite constant revivals. I'm not sure how much resurrection has affected Catelyn's personality, and how much is just a natural reaction to the RW and being killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Lord's Daughter Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 How is the Slynt thing not foreshadowing!? Maybe redeem is the wrong word - I more mean reach out to her human side that is 'Cat' and lay Stoneheart to rest. Cat's human side is still there. In AFFC she sets up an orphanage of sorts at the crossroads inn to find Arya and in ASOS, she asks Merrit Frey about whether he saw the Hound and a young girl at the RW. She definitely a great deal more colder and more obsessed with revenge than she was, but I think that if she knew that most of her children are still alive, she would be overjoyed to receive them. Also she had a vengeful streak even before she died, it just wasn't as dominant then. As for which child will encounter Stoneheart first, my money is on Bran. Sansa will probably remain in the Vale until the last third of TWOW and then I think she will move North via White Habour so I don't think she will encounter Stoneheart. As for that quote, I don't see it as foreshadowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Why would Lady Stoneheart need redemption? Or is in any way different from living Cat? Looks excluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Stoneheart isn't about justice or even revenge. She is about death. Lots of it, and blind to who or why.She needs redemption for sure, though I don't see it coming. The Brotherhood may redeem itself some, but reading through Brienne's encounter with them - they're in a dark place and headed darker. They're almost more Mountain than Beric these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Why would Lady Stoneheart need redemption? Or is in any way different from living Cat? Looks excluded. I agree. The attempted hanging of Pod was the worst thing she's done, and that was partly on Brienne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyk65 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I think it's a good catch by the OP and will be interesting when reading how the rest of LS's story unfolds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Stoneheart isn't about justice or even revenge. She is about death. Lots of it, and blind to who or why.She needs redemption for sure, though I don't see it coming.?1. Freys. Guilty based on testimony of someone who attended and saw everything. 2. Brienne. Guilty based on Lannister sword, talking about the Kingslayer, etc. 3. Pod. Lannister squire for the Imp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I agree. The attempted hanging of Pod was the worst thing she's done, and that was partly on Brienne And on Pod himself. Boasting about being an enemy combatant to people who hate enemy combatants in a society without any conventions to spare prisoners of war was a really bad idea. Even worse because he tied himself to Tyrion personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 ?1. Freys. Guilty based on testimony of someone who attended and saw everything.2. Brienne. Guilty based on Lannister sword, talking about the Kingslayer, etc.3. Pod. Lannister squire for the Imp.Spot on. Lady Stoneheart is justice. Plain old justice, without the social and financial biases allowing the nobility to escape their crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I don't think hanging either Brienne or Pod is right, but see it this way: They're war prisoners, just like Jaime was. She isn't making that mistake twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I don't think hanging either Brienne or Pod is right, but see it this way: They're war prisoners, just like Jaime was. She isn't making that mistake twice. Of course not, either one would be tragic. But that doesn't make Stoneheart evil - even Thoros seemed to think Brienne/Pod were up to no good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 ?1. Freys. Guilty based on testimony of someone who attended and saw everything. 2. Brienne. Guilty based on Lannister sword, talking about the Kingslayer, etc. 3. Pod. Lannister squire for the Imp.I don't have a book handy, but there's a lot of not-pure intentioned stuff going on with that group and multiple people are open about it to Brienne. I'm far from the most insightful reader, but I can't read that section without coming away feeling the tone if it all is pretty clear to the point of GRRM making a point. Personally, I think a view that she represents justice is a pretty strong misreading and ignores much, but I've been known to be wrong.... and having a band of outlaws slowly turning darker, especially under vengeful zombie leadership, is the sort of realism that I think the series is infused with. In the long run, there are no pure heroes in war and time shifts all perspectives until you don't know what you're fighting for anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Of course the chapter reads as being critical of LS. Because it's Brienne's chapter and that's how she sees Stoneheart: as the merciless hang woman with a cut throat and ten long scars on her face. Doesn't mean Brienne's right. As for Thoros, I can't imagine he'd be happy about Beric dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I don't have a book handy, but there's a lot of not-pue intentioned stuff going on with that group and multiple people are open about it to Brienne. I'm far from the most insightful reader, but I can't read that section without coming away feeling the tone if it all is pretty clear to the point of GRRM making a point. Personally, I think a view that she represents justice is a pretty strong misreading and ignores much, but I've been known to be wrong.... and having a band of outlaws slowly turning darker, especially under vengeful zombie leadership, is the sort of realism that I think the series is infused with. In the long run, there are no pure heroes in war and time shifts all perspectives until you don't know what you're fighting for anymore. The Brotherhood has certainly become darker, true. Under Stoneheart they are much more cynical and ruthless than they were under Beric, but it's just not true to say that they kill indiscriminately or target the innocent. If we heard that they were robbing the smallfolk or something than it would be different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I wouldn't agree that very much of it has to do with Brienne's POV perspective... and, yeah, Thoros is one of the people who's open about it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I wouldn't agree that very much of it has to do with Brienne's POV perspective... and, yeah, Thoros is one of the people who's open about it.. If we had a Stoneheart POV there, you would have been very surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Would I? Thanks George.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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