Spring Bass Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I thought it was interesting that the book implied the Ibbenese and "Brindled Men" of Sothoryos are separate sub-species of human beings, incapable of successfully interbreeding and producing fertile offspring with "regular" humans. Which makes sense in a way - we already knew of two other somewhat humanoid species (the Children and to a lesser extent the Giants). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Brown Ben's grandmother was half-Ibbenese and half-Qohorik, or so he claims, implying that smallfolk believe that Ibbenese can breed with humans. There's also an Ibbenese whore in Braavos. Nothing in ASOIAF implies they are a different species. I really think Yandel was being gratuitously racist about the Ibbenese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Also "sub-species" can by definition breed with each other. See Siberian Tiger and Bengal Tiger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Hell, even different species can interbreed if they aren't too far away, genetically speaking. Wolves can crossbreed with coyotes and jackals, producing fertile offspring, just like polar bears and brown bears or llamas and alpacas or bisons and cows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 There was a guy on the Sisters in Davos' chapters whos father was from Ibb and he looked liked Ibbenese so Ibbenese definitely can interbreed with other humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Brown Ben's grandmother was half-Ibbenese and half-Qohorik, or so he claims, implying that smallfolk believe that Ibbenese can breed with humans. There's also an Ibbenese whore in Braavos. Nothing in ASOIAF implies they are a different species.I really think Yandel was being gratuitously racist about the Ibbenese. Well, parts of Yandel's account read just like medieval European histories. They're reflective of ignorance of people and places beyond "the known world" during the Dark Ages & medieval period. But they're not racist in the modern sense, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrus Martell Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 There was a guy on the Sisters in Davos' chapters whos father was from Ibb and he looked liked Ibbenese so Ibbenese definitely can interbreed with other humans. Yep. Casso Mogat, captain of the Merry Midwife, is a half Ibbenese, half-Westerosi man who helps Davos get to White Harbour in ADWD. Yandel is way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Hell, even different species can interbreed if they aren't too far away, genetically speaking. Wolves can crossbreed with coyotes and jackals, producing fertile offspring, just like polar bears and brown bears or llamas and alpacas or bisons and cows. The definition of species is "the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring." What you just said, without realizing it, is that wolves and jackals and coyotes actually belong to the same species, as do polar bears and grizzly bears, and the others you mentioned. It's possible for members of the same species to have wildly different morphology - just look at all the breeds of domestic dogs, all of which are interfertile. If Yandel has his facts right, then the Brindled Men and Ibbenese are separate species from humans, albeit clearly members of the same genus. Incidentally, we know that giants are interfertile with humans, meaning that humans and giants belong to the same species. Evidence pointed out by others in this thread is enough to convince me that Yandel is wrong about the Ibbenese. We have no way of knowing if he is right about the Brindled Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctid1977 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Check out the Ibben thread. There is a suggestion that it's like mules. That Ibbenese and homo sapiens can breed but their offspring will be mostly infertile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sages Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The definition of species is "the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring." What you just said, without realizing it, is that wolves and jackals and coyotes actually belong to the same species, as do polar bears and grizzly bears, and the others you mentioned. It's possible for members of the same species to have wildly different morphology - just look at all the breeds of domestic dogs, all of which are interfertile. If Yandel has his facts right, then the Brindled Men and Ibbenese are separate species from humans, albeit clearly members of the same genus. Incidentally, we know that giants are interfertile with humans, meaning that humans and giants belong to the same species. Evidence pointed out by others in this thread is enough to convince me that Yandel is wrong about the Ibbenese. We have no way of knowing if he is right about the Brindled Men. The way the text describes the Skagosi almost makes one think they are mixed with something. They are described as huge hairy and smelly. It is speculated in the text that they have some mixture of giants blood or Ibbenese blood. This makes me think that it is very possible for men to breed with giants or Ibbenese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Mando Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Yandel says that their offspring is mostly infertile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The definition of species is "the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring." What you just said, without realizing it, is that wolves and jackals and coyotes actually belong to the same species, as do polar bears and grizzly bears, and the others you mentioned. It's possible for members of the same species to have wildly different morphology - just look at all the breeds of domestic dogs, all of which are interfertile. If Yandel has his facts right, then the Brindled Men and Ibbenese are separate species from humans, albeit clearly members of the same genus. Incidentally, we know that giants are interfertile with humans, meaning that humans and giants belong to the same species. Evidence pointed out by others in this thread is enough to convince me that Yandel is wrong about the Ibbenese. We have no way of knowing if he is right about the Brindled Men. Actually there is no exact definition of species. A definition of species that functions for a mammal, doesn't function for bacteria, for birds or fossils, as a result there are several different defintions of species: Chronospecies, bio-species, ring-species, etc. For further information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem Example the different species of the camel family (dromedary, bactrian camel, guanaco, vikunja) can produce fertile offspring, while donkeys & horse (family of horses which includes also zebras and others) can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Then what is the GoHH? I always thought she was a CotF or a half CotF and half man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 I am pretty sure that Yandel was just mistaken... When I watched Mansfield Park one of the characters mentioned that the mixture of white and African is 'a mule' and therefore sterile.Which I presume is meant to be reflective of Regency views about race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glamourweaver Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Indications are that in reality different human sub-species were fairly interbreedable - and Neandrathals actually were subsumed by interbreeding with homo sapiens sapiens, whose traits proved dominant. Even if the Ibbenese are a separate sub-species, and not just an ethnic group that the Citadel has some weird false ideas about (which strikes me as rather likely), they should in all likelihood be inter-fertile with other humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctid1977 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Actually Glamourweaver, the evidence for Neanderthal DNA has not been 100% found in any homo sapiens mitochondrial DNA as yet although 1-4% of all current European and Asian peoples actual DNA is from Neanderthals (there are hints that paler skintones and red hair may be Neanderthal traits). This could imply that there is no (or as close to none as makes no difference) Neanderthal DNA in people today that comes from a female Neanderthal, which could imply that any offspring from a male Homo Sapiens with a female Homo Neanderthalis would be infertile! Although Neanderthal baby daddies with modern human females were fine. There is evidence for this in nature! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glamourweaver Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Interesting! I hadn't read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 I thought it was interesting that the book implied the Ibbenese and "Brindled Men" of Sothoryos are separate sub-species of human beings, incapable of successfully interbreeding and producing fertile offspring with "regular" humans. Which makes sense in a way - we already knew of two other somewhat humanoid species (the Children and to a lesser extent the Giants). Yandel is probably wrong about not being able to breed with the Ibbenese, since there are people with Ibbenese blood. Also Homo Sapiens could interbreed with Neanderthals, so my guess is that the Ibbenese are as closely related to Homo Planetos, as Neanderthals were to Homo Sapiens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 I am pretty sure that Yandel was just mistaken... When I watched Mansfield Park one of the characters mentioned that the mixture of white and African is 'a mule' and therefore sterile. Which I presume is meant to be reflective of Regency views about race. Nah...at that time the population of the Caribbean, Brazil and other parts of Latin America already included a large percentage of people of mixed heritage, and anybody with an shred of education would know that Sir Thomas was wrong. I guess Jane Austen wanted to portray him as a really racist, bigoted and ignorant person...or maybe the issue of interracial relationships was such a taboo in the enviroment she grew up in (she was homeschooled and studied for some years at a boarding school for ladies where they were taught mostly ladylike stuff like needlework, piano, french, writing poetry, drawing...etc.) that she got some weird ideas ("black and white people having children? That doesn't happen!"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snark of Winterfell Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Actually Glamourweaver, the evidence for Neanderthal DNA has not been 100% found in any homo sapiens mitochondrial DNA as yet although 1-4% of all current European and Asian peoples actual DNA is from Neanderthals (there are hints that paler skintones and red hair may be Neanderthal traits). This could imply that there is no (or as close to none as makes no difference) Neanderthal DNA in people today that comes from a female Neanderthal, which could imply that any offspring from a male Homo Sapiens with a female Homo Neanderthalis would be infertile! Although Neanderthal baby daddies with modern human females were fine. There is evidence for this in nature! Gingervitis!!! I knew gingers weren't human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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