Causation of the Doom

[Andrew the Raider King!]

Please steer me in the right direction if wrong, but it seems that the Children of the Forest, who much more in line with natural forces of magic, having flooded the neck and broken the land mass creating the Stepstones, could have created the "Doom of Valyria". I have been scouring for info, but have come up empty or missing pertinent passages, whilst re-reading.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Please steer me in the right direction if wrong, but it seems that the Children of the Forest, who much more in line with natural forces of magic, having flooded the neck and broken the land mass creating the Stepstones, could have created the "Doom of Valyria". I have been scouring for info, but have come up empty or missing pertinent passages, whilst re-reading.

TWOIAF spoiler

The Valyrian mages who were responsible for keeping the Valyrian volcanoes from exploding were all assassinated and the Doom happened. Hmm...who would have the assassination skills necessary for this, and who would want to blow up Valyria?

[Andrew the Raider King!]

AHHHH!!!!!

[Stannis's Lawyer]

AHHHH!!!!!

:)

[Winterfell Resident]

I don't remember which book it was but it did mention that the doom was caused by the sorcerers in Essos.

Not the children of the forest.

But, if you can find something that is written that can point to the Children of the Forest having a hand in the doom, please reach out and disclose this bit of information. Even if the info is vague such as "the sorcerers from across the narrow sea where it is always cold," or something like that. That would be fine.

But, as far as I can tell the Children of the Forest had no hand in the doom.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

I don't remember which book it was but it did mention that the doom was caused by the sorcerers in Essos.

Not the children of the forest.

But, if you can find something that is written that can point to the Children of the Forest having a hand in the doom, please reach out and disclose this bit of information. Even if the info is vague such as "the sorcerers from across the narrow sea where it is always cold," or something like that. That would be fine.

But, as far as I can tell the Children of the Forest had no hand in the doom.

TWOIAF spoiler

The Doom was caused by sorcerers DYING, not the sorcerers themselves

[Lady Flandrensis]

TWOIAF spoiler

The Doom was caused by sorcerers DYING, not the sorcerers themselves

:agree:

[Winterfell Resident]

Thanks Guys.

[oursisthefury69]

I don't remember which book it was but it did mention that the doom was caused by the sorcerers in Essos.

What do you mean you cant remember which book? The only one that's came out recently which contained that recent information. You mean you dont know the name of the book you havent read but have obtained small amounts of knowledge from

And its cause OP

[peterbound]

What do you mean you cant remember which book? The only one that's came out recently which contained that recent information. You mean you dont know the name of the book you havent read but have obtained small amounts of knowledge from

And its cause OP

Big shocker here, but not everyone studies the books like they are sacred texts.

Cut the fella some slack, he was trying to be helpful.

[Disputatious]

TWOIAF spoiler

The Valyrian mages who were responsible for keeping the Valyrian volcanoes from exploding were all assassinated and the Doom happened. Hmm...who would have the assassination skills necessary for this, and who would want to blow up Valyria?

Interesting. And how is it that these assassins survived the doom? Or were they a suicide squad sent from, say, Braavos?

[Not a kneeler]

TWOIAF is cannon. This assumption made from that tidbit seem reasonable to me. Also the illustration on page 16 showing Valyria before the doom indicate that fire flowed freely under control of the pyromancers. Remove their influence and BOOM!

Now we have another 322 pages to chew over plus illustrations that are informative in themselves.

[complexphoenix]

TWOIAF spoiler

The Valyrian mages who were responsible for keeping the Valyrian volcanoes from exploding were all assassinated and the Doom happened. Hmm...who would have the assassination skills necessary for this, and who would want to blow up Valyria?

Uhm, I'm afraid you're misrepresenting what the book actually said, and also failing to note some other obvious issues.

TWOIAF frames itself as a work written by a maester, and Maester Yandel acknowledges that no one really knows what caused the Doom of Valyria. The theory about mages keeping the Fourteen Flames in check and then getting assassinated is merely the maesters' best guess. But for me, the biggest problem of that theory is this: If the Doom was a set of massive volcanic eruptions caused by the sudden release of pent-up pressure previously held in check by magic

and nothing more than that, then why does the Doom still rule Valyria? In the real world, volcanic eruptions are not permanent disasters, after all. Within a short period, the dust settles, the fires go out, the lava cools, and life returns to the area. Yet Valyria remains blighted and uninhabitable 400 years later, and no one who has entered the peninsula since the Doom has ever returned. This plainly indicates that something more was going on, something magical in nature.

There's also the dragons to consider: the Doom of Valyria burned hot enough to kill dragons. Would a volcanic eruption, even a massively explosive one, do that? I doubt it immensely.

We know that Hardhome was destroyed by a similarly sudden disaster, and remains similarly blighted to this day, on a much smaller scale. Maester Yandel makes no mention of this in his chapter on the Doom, but the parallels are too striking to ignore. And Hardhome had no volcanoes, no dragons and no fire sorcery.

From what we know of the Smoking Sea, it seems to be a series of calderas left by the explosion of the Fourteen Flames. By now I think about it, I think those explosions were a consequence of the Doom rather than its cause. The cause of the Doom was a spell, which destroyed the land, the people, and the dragons of Valyria as Hardhome had been destroyed a century before that; the spells holding the Fourteen Flames failed as a consequence of all that, causing a secondary blast that destroyed the volcanoes and created the Smoking Sea. Why the maesters of the Citadel have not noted a possible connection between Hardhome and the Doom, I don't know. Maybe because Hardhome was so small, so out-of-the-way, and so unimportant to anyone living south of the Wall? If indeed it was a test run for the Doom of Valyria, I imagine it was chosen for exactly that reason.

Magic in ASOIAF seems to require some kind of sacrifice of blood or life to power it; I reckon the Faceless Men used the deaths of their victims to power the spell somehow. That may be why it took a full century after the test run at Hardhome to destroy Valyria; a spell so massive would have required a great many lives.

After considering all this, TWOIAF doesn't change my view on the Doom by very much. I believe that the Doom of Valyria was a magical event identical to the Doom of Hardhome, only on a much bigger scale, most likely caused by the Faceless Men.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

TWOIAF spoiler

The Valyrian mages who were responsible for keeping the Valyrian volcanoes from exploding were all assassinated and the Doom happened. Hmm...who would have the assassination skills necessary for this, and who would want to blow up Valyria?

This also answers the question of how the Faceless Men brought "the gift" to the masters. Part of the hang-up was how they could possibly engineer the Doom on their own. But if they just killed the guys keeping the volcanoes stable, then they can still have caused the Doom without actually causing it.

And if magic had been swung hard in one direction for hundreds or thousands of years, then simply killing the mages could have caused a "snapback" in said magic, which can explain why the region is still blighted. It was never going to act like a normal volcanic eruption because whatever magic the mages had been controlling was thrown out of whack with their deaths. It's still magical in nature.

[complexphoenix]

This also answers the question of how the Faceless Men brought "the gift" to the masters. Part of the hang-up was how they could possibly engineer the Doom on their own. But if they just killed the guys keeping the volcanoes stable, then they can still have caused the Doom without actually causing it.

And if magic had been swung hard in one direction for hundreds or thousands of years, then simply killing the mages could have caused a "snapback" in said magic, which can explain why the region is still blighted. It was never going to act like a normal volcanic eruption because whatever magic the mages had been controlling was thrown out of whack with their deaths. It's still magical in nature.

I suppose it's possible, but it leaves the question of why Hardhome was destroyed and blighted in such a similar manner, when the wildlings weren't using any magic comparable to what the Valyrians used and didn't have a volcano. Given the similarities I find it very, very hard to believe that the two are unrelated.

[oursisthefury69]

This also answers the question of how the Faceless Men brought "the gift" to the masters. Part of the hang-up was how they could possibly engineer the Doom on their own. But if they just killed the guys keeping the volcanoes stable, then they can still have caused the Doom without actually causing it.

And if magic had been swung hard in one direction for hundreds or thousands of years, then simply killing the mages could have caused a "snapback" in said magic, which can explain why the region is still blighted. It was never going to act like a normal volcanic eruption because whatever magic the mages had been controlling was thrown out of whack with their deaths. It's still magical in nature.

There was never any "hang-up" Your whole them causing it without causing it isnt the case. Firstly by them simply doing what you aknowledged they did they would have caused it, so i dont know what your trying to get at with the whole "caused the Doom without actually causing the Doom" comment.

And secondly and more importantly keep in mind the info is coming from the knowledge of a Maester, not GRRM; so he could very well have divulged this information that was more or less correct without obviously really knowing the whole story. I imagine being the "Faceless Men" the happenings were a bit more complex than them just killing all of these critical fire mages (either in relatively quick succession or seperately) and nobody in Valyria thinks twice that they need these guys until theyre all dead. More likely it involved taking the faces from said maegis (seeing as they're capable of such) as a means of nobody noticing they were all dying/ becoming privy to their stations of work amongst the volcanoes and perhaps even learning of some of their powers from some of their memories via their face stealing.

[oursisthefury69]

s

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There was never any "hang-up" Your whole them causing it without causing it isnt the case. Firstly by them simply doing what you aknowledged they did they would have caused it, so i dont know what your trying to get at with the whole "caused the Doom without actually causing the Doom" comment.

I mean "cause" as in "directly cause the magic volcano apocalypse by directly interfering with the volcanoes." A lot of posts I've seen that are skeptical of FM involvement are skeptical for that reason: They don't see how the FM could have directly manipulated the volcanoes. But WoIaF shows how they could have brought about the Doom indirectly through killing the fire mages. Hence "causing it" (by killing the mages) "without causing it" (by directly manipulating the volcanoes themselves personally).

Also, maybe learn how to close spoiler tags?

[peterbound]

I mean "cause" as in "directly cause the magic volcano apocalypse by directly interfering with the volcanoes." A lot of posts I've seen that are skeptical of FM involvement are skeptical for that reason: They don't see how the FM could have directly manipulated the volcanoes. But WoIaF shows how they could have brought about the Doom indirectly through killing the fire mages. Hence "causing it" (by killing the mages) "without causing it" (by directly manipulating the volcanoes themselves personally).

Also, maybe learn how to close spoiler tags?

Or: hope people coming into a thread asking a direct question understand that spoilers will abound.

Hot damn I hate the spoiler army. The op is, literally, asking a direct question. There should be an understanding that spoilers will be in the replies. If you come in here and are 'spoiled' (a silly fucking concept), it's there own damn fault.

[Kienn]

Or: hope people coming into a thread asking a direct question understand that spoilers will abound.

Hot damn I hate the spoiler army. The op is, literally, asking a direct question. There should be an understanding that spoilers will be in the replies. If you come in here and are 'spoiled' (a silly fucking concept), it's there own damn fault.

OP clearly hasn't read WoIaF, which has been out less than a week and has a clear policy on spoilers for some time after release.

You can whine when it's been out a year.