Serial Season 2: Deserter Storm

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Last night my wife moved our Elf on the Shelf. I didn't see her do it. However it was moved this morning and all the kids were in bed. On a witness stand I couldn't say that I knew my wife moved the Elf on the Shelf because I didn't see her. However I know she did because the kids were in bed.

I understand that Adnon couldn't take the stand and say that Jay did it. But as a guy talking to a reporter it seems like he could. He has never said that Jay did it. In fact when she asks who killed Hae, he just says "I don't know". But he does know. It has him, or Jay, or him and Jay. Either way, he knows. Instead he sort of takes this approach like "Hell, could have been almost anyone. I don't know, man." That makes no sense to me at all.

There are of course other possibilities. For example, that a third party killed Hae and Jay was involved, but didn't actually perform the murder himself. Or it could be that a third party killed Hae and Jay was informed after the fact. Or that Jay wasn't involved and for whatever reason, the police fed enough information to him to allow him to be their star witness and Jay decided to frame Adnan for other reasons (Jay was jealous of Adnan's relationship with Stephanie).

Who knows?

Are some of these far-fetched? Of course, only because we don't have the evidence we would need to make them seem plausible. On some level, if Adnan doesn't really know who killed Hae, I have to respect his unwillingness to state with certainty that which he does not know. It's also quite possible that Adnan HAS been asked to speculate and HAS speculated that perhaps it was Jay, but that this hasn't been included in the podcast because it's of virtually no significance. I think that's entirely possible as well. Adnan's defense attorney certainly made it a part of her legal strategy to suggest that Jay might be the killer.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

With the phone in Leakin Park at the time Jay says Hae was buried (and the tower covers specifically the area where the body was buried, not the entire park), I think it becomes extremely difficult to construct a remotely plausible scenario where Jay is not involved.

[Raja]

The most depressing aspect of that episode was definitely the whole pakistani/ muslim stereotype. It's nauseating and unfortunately still rather prevalent. Also, it's 'Adnan', yes? Or is Adnon a different spelling that I'm unaware of?

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

The most depressive aspect of that episode was definitely the whole pakistani/ muslim stereotype. It's nauseating and unfortunately still rather prevalent. Also, it's 'Adnan', yes? Or is Adnon a different spelling that I'm unaware of?

It's definitely Adnan. I find that I sometimes can't help but type "Adnon" because that's how it sounds whenever Koenig says his name on the show.

[JonArryn]

I think Jay testified that Adnan spoke that he was gonna kill Hae, I can't recall hearing anything on the podcast that Adnan put it in writing. Sorry if I'm being thick, just not quite sure what you mean.

That aside, the fact he said it to Jay, and Jay believed him yet didn't go to the police because he was worried Adnan would reveal Jay's drug dealing to them sounds pretty thin.

It was in some of the middle episodes, maybe 3,4 or 5, where it was mentioned that after they had broke up or was breaking up Adnan got a note from Hae which he brought to the class. At the back of that note he and a mutual friend of theirs, can't remember who, maybe Aisha or someone, joked around writing things about Hae and themselves on it. And Adnan had also written "I'm gonna kill her" in the corner of the note. I don't know how much weight a thing like this warrants, but it's not something that helps him, that's for sure.

There are of course other possibilities. For example, that a third party killed Hae and Jay was involved, but didn't actually perform the murder himself. Or it could be that a third party killed Hae and Jay was informed after the fact. Or that Jay wasn't involved and for whatever reason, the police fed enough information to him to allow him to be their star witness and Jay decided to frame Adnan for other reasons (Jay was jealous of Adnan's relationship with Stephanie).

Who knows?

Are some of these far-fetched? Of course, only because we don't have the evidence we would need to make them seem plausible. On some level, if Adnan doesn't really know who killed Hae, I have to respect his unwillingness to state with certainty that which he does not know. It's also quite possible that Adnan HAS been asked to speculate and HAS speculated that perhaps it was Jay, but that this hasn't been included in the podcast because it's of virtually no significance. I think that's entirely possible as well. Adnan's defense attorney certainly made it a part of her legal strategy to suggest that Jay might be the killer.

Good writing explaining court proceedings. I'm not an expert on them by any means so I didn't know you can only take the stand while giving yourself to questioning. Although if he knows that he is truly innocent I still can't see why he wouldn't want to take the stand. I know his lawyer adviced against it, but if he himself deep down knows he's innocent, there's no reason for him not to go up there. The whole thing about him not remembering much about that day is bullshit in my ears. He got a call from a cop about his ex girlfriend being missing, and we have a witness stating she saw him taking phone calls where he said "what am I gonna do?" and he was acting strange in general.

And I don't really buy into the theory about a third person, I read the whole theory on reddit and it is noteworthy of course.

The thing is that you have a general death time, you have the phone log, you have Adnan and Jay at a friend's apartment somewhere around 6. And then you have the phone calls pinging at Leakin Park after that. So you mean Jay picked up Adnan, went to a friend to smoke or maybe after they smoked weed, dropped him off somewhere, then went to Leakin Park to bury the body with another person? All this while Jay has been thinking about what to do with the body and another person has been waiting for him. That theory doesn't really hold up in my view. It would take Jay to plan it meticulously and hand the phone to Adnan at the right times, then to get the phone again and go to Leakin Park. It is more plausible to me that they both stayed together that evening, and handled the situation together. They're both involved and I am pretty sure Adnan did the murder, but is Jay in deeper than he admits? Maybe he is, but then why in hell doesn't Adnan give some of his details about what happened? If Adnan is innocent and hung out with Jay in the evening, he has to bring some information. He hasn't and that's just one of the things that's so weird with how he was acting.

Anyone think Jay was the one giving the anonymous phone call? Or any speculations on who it might be? IIRC the cop who took the call believed the caller to be a late teenage boy of asian or middle eastern descent. Or am I remembering this wrong?

[JonArryn]

Just read a pretty interesting theory which explains a lot of the inconsistences in Jay's story and how it would add up with Adnan commiting the murder. If you're interested in the case it's definitely worth it to read. There are other comments too, that gives counterpoints to it, so you get two views on it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2nxbjl/why_adnan_is_guilty_using_the_facts/

I don't know if I agree with it, but it's definitely a possibility that Jay buried the body alone because Adnan needed to be at the mosque with his father. Again, in this case you don't really know what witness to believe and there's so many different views. Can we trust Adnan's father completely here? I'm not sure.

The main thing is that it explains the inconsistencies to the phone changing from Adnan to Jay, and the times Adnan was in school, at his classes and at track practice. Another very interesting thing is that it speculates that Jay was broken by police in the pre-interrogation that they've talked about, and since he was an accomplice but hadn't made the murder himself, he chose to tell his story, although tweaked to fit with the phone calls and what not. It also explains pretty well why his defense attorney didn't want to contact Asia anymore (the girl who had seen Adnan at the library) and that's because no one knows if the murder took place at the best buy, at first it was believed to have taken place at the school, and therefore that witness in turn would have put Adnan close to crime scene, so it didn't really matter.

Anyway, this is the only thing I've been thinking about today, and it's so damn interesting. There's so many layers and things to dig into and it's great that Sarah has brought the attention to this story.

I'm already waiting for the next episode, and it seemed like Sarah would go into details about what if Adnan is a psychopath.

Can you say that this was a solid case where it was beyond reasonable doubt? Probably not. But it doesn't change the fact that Adnan is most likely guilty.

[The Iceman of the North]

In the United States, you have a Constitutional right not to take the stand in your own defense. It's so important that Prosecutors are not allowed to make an issue out of the fact that a criminal Defendant didn't take the stand and juries are specifically directed that they are NOT to let a Defendant's failure or refusal to take the stand to influence their decision in any way. The burden of persuasion "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the Prosecutor's burden alone. The fact that at least one juror has admitted that Adnan's refusal to take the stand adversely impacted her opinion of his innocence (and that other jurors felt the same way) is incredibly troubling, because it means they all disregarded the Judge's instructions and, in a way, violated Adnon's Constitutional rights.

I had the same reaction to the jurors stated sentiment.

Good writing explaining court proceedings. I'm not an expert on them by any means so I didn't know you can only take the stand while giving yourself to questioning. Although if he knows that he is truly innocent I still can't see why he wouldn't want to take the stand. I know his lawyer adviced against it, but if he himself deep down knows he's innocent, there's no reason for him not to go up there. The whole thing about him not remembering much about that day is bullshit in my ears. He got a call from a cop about his ex girlfriend being missing, and we have a witness stating she saw him taking phone calls where he said "what am I gonna do?" and he was acting strange in general

Because if you're truly innocent it's harder to convince a jury of that during cross examination than if you're guilty and have had time to come up with a plausible story for why you're 'innocent'.

[Eddard Stark is online]

I realise I've been going under the mistaken belief that the more I learn about this case, the more things will become clear, but I'm finding the more I learn the more confused and uncertain I am. I'd make a terrible juror that's for sure - I read the Roy Davis theory and immediately felt convinced - finally! This explained everything. Then I read the theory that Adnan is guilty and Jay buried the body alone and was swayed by that argument. Now I'm about to read the theory that Jay killed Hae and Adnan is innocent and stupid me, I'll probably be compelled by that argument.

Damn I really wish Sarah could crack this, but I guess that's not gonna happen without the right witness coming forward and admitting to what they've been keeping to themselves all these years - which presumably will never happen without them running the risk of prison for admitting to previously perverting the course of justice.

Adnan had another lawyer after Gutierrez. His name was Charles Dorsey and he represented Adnan in the "sentencing phase" of his trial. That is, AFTER the jury had found Adnan guilty of Hae's murder, there's another proceeding where the Prosecution and Defense square off over the length and nature of the sentence that the Judge should impose. The Prosecution and Defense will often submit briefs outlining "mitigating" and "aggravating" factors that they'll ask the Judge to consider in making the sentence less or more harsh.

Mr. Dorsey apparently recommended to Adnan that during his sentencing phase, where he is allowed to make a statement, that he claim it was a crime of passion. The theory behind it is that the Judge would be more inclined to exercise a little leniency if (1) Adnan admitted, after the Jury had already found him guilty of Hae's murder, to having killed her and (2) if Adnan could get the Judge to believe that the crime wasn't really pre-meditated. The rationale is that a Judge (and parole boards, as well) are more likely to take mercy on you if you admit to what you've done rather than continue to deny it. Also, cold-blooded pre-meditated murder is considered the worst kind of murder. It's one thing to be the type of person who, in a moment of passion, makes a horrible decision to murder someone else. It's another thing to be the type of person who coldly and methodically plans out the murder of another and then carries it out.

Thanks for explaining. I didn't realise the new attorney was representing Adnan for the sentencing phase. From what Adnan told Koenig in one of their phone calls, Adnan made it sound as though when Dorsey asked for it to be considered a crime of passion, that was a complete surprise to Adnan, like he had no idea in advance this was what his attorney was going to say. Maybe I just got the wrong end of the stick then, unless Adnan was trying to emphasise his innocence to Koenig by saying "He just gave away the only thing I had - my innocence".

[JonArryn]

I read through the phone logs with commentaries and it was a lot of text, and it was late so I kind of lost some things maybe, but it was still interesting.

And again, the Nisha call is one of the most important things in the phone logs. It's a 2 minute and 22 second call, and there's just no way you would believe Jay made the call. Adnan and Jay were together at that time, they must have been. Jay was keeping the phone close and calling a lot that day so it doesn't make sense if he would butt-dial or call the wrong person and still talk for 2 and a half minute. As Sarah also says in the podcast, that call is one of the worst things if you look at the case from the perspective of Adnan being innocent.

I know we won't get a big breakthrough in the end, but I'm not expecting one either. I'm just interested too see what more information we can get out of the two last episodes. Hopefully she has some important piece or something that we get to know which will be a large piece of it.

This is one of the most riveting pieces of media I've experienced during this year, so it's nice too see they will make a season 2.

[Guy Kilmore]

Just binged listened to this and I enjoyed it.

Some random thoughts:

• It really find it interesting in how elements in this story really weren't interested in the "truth" specifically but in crafting a strong narrative or a perspective they wish to present. All these elements were really interested in that and it is amazing what gets missed. It makes me reflect on my own way of doing things.
  
• I don't know if Adnan is guilty or not. Jay is lying. I think if you can ever really figure out why he is lying, you will answer a lot of questions
  
• If Cousin Vinny was Adnan's attorney, he wouldn't be in prison
  

[OnionAhaiReborn]

• I don't know if Adnan is guilty or not. Jay is lying. I think if you can ever really figure out why he is lying, you will answer a lot of questions

I think the prevailing theory in Serial-obsessed corners of the internet is that, even if Adnan is guilty, Jay lied to minimize his involvement in the murder. Maybe he planned it with Adnan, maybe he was there when it took place, maybe he had some kind of direct hand in killing Hae right alongside Adnan. This maybe doesn't explain some of the more out-there versions of his story (like the Patapsco Park sunset), but it makes a good deal of sense to me.

[Guy Kilmore]

I think the prevailing theory in Serial-obsessed corners of the internet is that, even if Adnan is guilty, Jay lied to minimize his involvement in the murder. Maybe he planned it with Adnan, maybe he was there when it took place, maybe he had some kind of direct hand in killing Hae right alongside Adnan. This maybe doesn't explain some of the more out-there versions of his story (like the Patapsco Park sunset), but it makes a good deal of sense to me.

Those could be some of the reasons.

I am wracking my brain for where I read this or heard this, but I read somewhere how sometimes in police interrogations that people will go down certain paths in order, to "please" (bad word choice) the detectives. I will have to find some of those articles or whatnot where I heard that. My google fu is failing me.

[Gears of the Beast]

Those could be some of the reasons.

I am wracking my brain for where I read this or heard this, but I read somewhere how sometimes in police interrogations that people will go down certain paths in order, to "please" (bad word choice) the detectives. I will have to find some of those articles or whatnot where I heard that. My google fu is failing me.

I think this is exactly what happened, from what I can tell a bunch of confirmation bias involved and they basically lead Jay to say things that would best allow them to create a coherent scenario that fit the facts of the case. I don't think they did it on purpose. While not exactly the same thing, there was a really interesting This American Life episode (I linked to the specific part in the episode) where they showed how detectives can be completely blinded by confirmation bias and unknowingly lead people to say what they want to hear.

[JonArryn]

Because if you're truly innocent it's harder to convince a jury of that during cross examination than if you're guilty and have had time to come up with a plausible story for why you're 'innocent'.

Yeah, and that's basically one of my biggest reasons why I don't think he is innocent, as I've said many times before int his thread. His day was anything but ordinary, yet he conveniently only remember parts of it.

For me, there is something there and something with how he talks to Sarah in interviews which make me feel, pretty strongly too, that he is the murderer. My main reason is the evidence which is the phone logs, sure, but I think only by him speaking with Sarah, i feel he is a chameleont, and possibly a psycopath who knows exactly how to manipulate people. I might be going a bit far when saying that now, since we're seeing everything in the case and maybe if I didn't know everything about it I wouldn't even think about the calls. But as of now, something about them is just... there's something hidden there if I can say that.

[Eddard Stark is online]

I recently found this Slate 'Serial Spoilers' podcast, in which they discuss each latest episode of Serial. It starts 5 episodes in, but I'm currently enjoying re-listening to some of the older episodes and then listening to the Slate Spoiler Special.

Yeah, and that's basically one of my biggest reasons why I don't think he is innocent, as I've said many times before int his thread. His day was anything but ordinary, yet he conveniently only remember parts of it.

For me, there is something there and something with how he talks to Sarah in interviews which make me feel, pretty strongly too, that he is the murderer. My main reason is the evidence which is the phone logs, sure, but I think only by him speaking with Sarah, i feel he is a chameleont, and possibly a psycopath who knows exactly how to manipulate people. I might be going a bit far when saying that now, since we're seeing everything in the case and maybe if I didn't know everything about it I wouldn't even think about the calls. But as of now, something about them is just... there's something hidden there if I can say that.

I've been wondering about this too. What is it about his voice / how he talks that makes you think he's lying? I've read other people commenting that the way Adnan speaks to Sarah is off and I feel slightly stupid that I can't hear what other people are obviously hearing. I think he sounds a bit unnaturally chipper sometimes, but I never really knew what to make of that so didn't really manage to form much of a judgment about that in the end.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

This most recent episode was, I think, the worst episode of the series by far. The whole thing was nothing but lazy armchair psychology built upon extremely specious speculation. I do not have high hopes going into the finale next week.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I didn't think this was a bad episode at all. As it applies to Adnan's guilt or innocence, and to the extent that Koenig framed it that way, there was some armchair psychology. But less and less as the series has gone on have I felt that the best way to look at Serial is as an exploration of Adnan's guilt or innocence. It's strength is in crafting a narrative filled with compelling portraits of individuals, which carries us through a bunch of different areas of interest. It's covered police investigations, criminal defense, prison life, cellphone technology, wrongful conviction advocacy, Muslim immigrant life, hell, Woodlawn teen life. It's been a window, from one vantage or another, into the experience of being convicted, of having a friend convicted, of doubting the system, of doubting a friend, of reckoning with fundamental uncertainty and imposed expectations.

This week was about what it is to be a murderer. We don't know if Adnan is a murderer (I think he is), and this episode put to bed the notion that we can tell from his behavior (or manner on the phone with Koenig) whether or not he is. From that angle, the episode may have mostly just spun its wheels. We didn't get anywhere closer to a solid conclusion one way or another- I seriously doubt we'll get any closer next week and I could hardly care less. Sure, it would be exciting for there to be some huge breakthrough, but I don't expect it, not if Koenig has been honest with us, and I think she has.

Through ostensibly seeking information relevant to Adnan's case, we got a look at an absolutely fascinating question- what kind of person does it take to commit such an evil act? The answer: for the most part, nothing special, murderers are pretty normal. Usually they snap, sometimes they snap slowly. Koenig directs this (and a little info about possible legal ramifications) to the question- which is all over the place in the fanbase- of Adnan's apparent lack of emotion, and unwillingness to accuse Jay or show anger. It's an important corrective to what I think the biases of a lot of us might be- we want to see a an impassioned victim or an obvious monster, failing either we wonder if we're looking at a coldy calculated psychopath. The truth is more humdrum- if Adnan is innocent, he's a person who has settled into prison life, found some stability and peace, and is discomforted by that balance being upset. If he's guilty, he's a person who as a teenager committed a horrible crime, but he's still mostly a sociable, likable person. One way or another he's cautious and cares about the way he's perceived- he doesn't like being considered a killer or even a thief. Almost certainly he isn't a perfectly calculated psychopath.

I found the whole thing pretty fascinating and enriching, as usual.

[CyanidePie]

This most recent episode was, I think, the worst episode of the series by far. The whole thing was nothing but lazy armchair psychology built upon extremely specious speculation. I do not have high hopes going into the finale next week.

This isn't a TV show.

[john]

I haven't heard the latest one but I listened to all the others over the last two weeks or so and It definitely seems like this is an opinion piece on the state of the US justice system, rather than the salacious true crime drama it's dressed up as. I'd prefer the latter, myself, but the former is more like a TAL type of thing.

Koenig's repeatedly stressed that's it was a normal trial, normal investigation, no blame can be attached to anyone for the possibility of an injustice but at the same time showing attitudes towards the legal process that are horrible, in the context she's showing them in. Multiple legal officials are clearly not doing their job properly if a juror can be interviewed and blithely share her frustration that the defendant didn't take the stand, without seeing anything wrong with what she's saying.

I've been wondering about this too. What is it about his voice / how he talks that makes you think he's lying? I've read other people commenting that the way Adnan speaks to Sarah is off and I feel slightly stupid that I can't hear what other people are obviously hearing. I think he sounds a bit unnaturally chipper sometimes, but I never really knew what to make of that so didn't really manage to form much of a judgment about that in the end.

I think he probably did it, like a lot of other boarders seem to, so maybe I'm just looking for sociopathic behaviour but I find his pauses kind of creepy. Like if Koenig says something he doesn't really like, he'll pause for a looong time, and then be perfectly friendly and all when he comes back but the pauses are too long, man. :P

[JonArryn]

I just listened to this latest episode, and while it wasn't as compelling as some other episodes have been, I think you should base these podcasts more as a whole, than say what episodes are the best and not. As some above said, this isn't a tv show, even though it has been entertaining in a lot of ways and has built suspense like a tv show, it really isn't. You are given different pieces each week, and some are great and can change your picture, while others, like this episode, might not say very much. This was more to show that there is doubt about it all, and that absolute truths are hard to see in almost all situations.

To know that a kid in 8th grade stole money I don't put anything big in. I shoplifted a lot in 7th and 8th grade, and I consider myself a normal person. So that aspect felt kind of nonsensical in the end. 14 year olds will do mistakes, and it's a stupid thing to do, but I guarantee that the majority of shoplifters and people who steal small amounts of money aren't murderers.

I've been wondering about this too. What is it about his voice / how he talks that makes you think he's lying? I've read other people commenting that the way Adnan speaks to Sarah is off and I feel slightly stupid that I can't hear what other people are obviously hearing. I think he sounds a bit unnaturally chipper sometimes, but I never really knew what to make of that so didn't really manage to form much of a judgment about that in the end.

I think he is extremely good at seeing how other people will view him according to his answers (and this he also said in his letter to Sarah in episode 11) and in some ways that also comes off as manipulating. He knows exactly what to say, and he manages to get out of every thing Sarah throws at him. The most "shocked" I've heard him was probably the first episode where Adnan wanted to know if Jay had given his gf a present on her b-day, because Adnan had earlier, and when Sarah asked him why he wondered about that, he kind of saw that he might back down a bit to paint a better picture of himself.

So he's very good at painting a good picture of himself, but there is something that's not genuine about it. I can't give specific instances in the phone calls other than that one, but I feel that he is intelligent, manipulative, and it's pretty clear from it that he's also hiding something. Take that all in, put in the story of Jay, the phone log evidence, his convenient lack of memory for what he did that day(the same day his ex-gf went missing) and I think it's pretty clear that he did it.