Minstral Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I have not read the World book but I have a curiosity from what I have skimmed here. I heard it mentioned that there was something of a bias towards some of the more deplorable actions committed by the Lannisters, particularly the fate of Rhaegar's family. Is this true? Does the maester come off as very pro Lannister in his portrayal of the events here? If it is a yes then it seems odd to me that there would be so many indications that the Lannisters have a strong connection to the conclave. It would make three connections; Pycelle, the one in White Harbor, and this one (if it is true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The maester speculatse that Elia might of killed the kids herself or that Aerys ordered it and doesn't even mention Gregor or Amory. He comes off pro Lannister and Baratheon but he doesn't go out of his way to make the Targaryens, except the ones that were like Aerys and Maegor, look terrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Widow of Coldmoat Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Pycelle is directly cited as a reference by Yandel numerous times regarding Aerys II's reign. Also this book was intended for Robert, originally then Joffrey and then Tommen. A pro-Lannister bias doesn't necessarily indicate any wider conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Pycelle is directly cited as a reference by Yandel numerous times regarding Aerys II's reign. Also this book was intended for Robert, originally then Joffrey and then Tommen. A pro-Lannister bias doesn't necessarily indicate any wider conspiracy.Nor am I implying one.just that it seemed that the lannisters had strong connections when they have been revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 When the King is still hostage of Duskendale, Tywin says (paraphrasing) "yeah, he could die. But Rhaegar would make a better King". The book doesn't really portrays this under a negative light, and in fact, presents Tywin as the one and only saviour of the Realm, but I believe this was the moment in which the relationship between R and his father died, even though R's relationship with his father, until that time, wasn't bad (Aerys is mentioned as cheering at his son unhorsing men during the Tourney of Lannisport). I assume that Tywin wanted to appeal to Rhaegar's ambition, which I also believe he honestly didn't have, in the way that he had no hurry for his father to die (specially in that way) so he would be King. And what he caused instead was the court to divide in two factions, which eventually fuelled Aerys' paranoia. His comment did more than what it looked at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Pro-Lannister/Baratheon as mentioned....and also Arryn. I think Yandel may have strained something bending over to kiss Jon Arryn's rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 It is interesting that the bad relation between Aerys II and Rhaegar was almost the replicate of Aegon IV and Daeron II. They all loathed each other. Lords were divided between two poles. The bad fathers supported unworthy sons over the rightful heirs. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 When the King is still hostage of Duskendale, Tywin says (paraphrasing) "yeah, he could die. But Rhaegar would make a better King". The book doesn't really portrays this under a negative light, and in fact, presents Tywin as the one and only saviour of the Realm, but I believe this was the moment in which the relationship between R and his father died, even though R's relationship with his father, until that time, wasn't bad (Aerys is mentioned as cheering at his son unhorsing men during the Tourney of Lannisport). Good points -- I think the discussion of "what was Rhaegar doing during the Defiance of Duskendale?" should be revisited now that we have the information from TWOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Yandel is not necessarily biased on the historical facts, but his sources are. And he is completely sucking up to Robert, but that's it. Ran/Linda have said that the intention was that Elia stuff was supposed to be somebody else tinkering with the manuscript, indicated by a changed color for the page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 It is interesting that the bad relation between Aerys II and Rhaegar was almost the replicate of Aegon IV and Daeron II. They all loathed each other. Lords were divided between two poles. The bad fathers supported unworthy sons over the rightful heirs. etc. Bur R and A didn't hate each other until Duskendale. In fact, it looked like Aerys was even proud of his son. In any case, Aerys never officially showed any preference over Viserys, except what "others" believe. And Aerys kept trusting Rhaegar in many things. Dunno, I don't want to label anything as "unreliable" but I believe the accounts of Aerys ' madness might be a bit exaggerated in order to present Tywin in a more positive light. No one denies that Tywin did make good things as Hand, but I believe that not only the King's men saw Rhaegar as something that could have stopped their ambitions. Maybe Tywin feared Aerys could have made Rhaegar his own hand. Good points -- I think the discussion of "what was Rhaegar doing during the Defiance of Duskendale?" should be revisited now that we have the information from TWOIAF. Poor Rhaegar... "Let's discuss ways to save my father" "Who cares? I have a better King right there!" *points at Rhaegar* "Yeah, that wasn't awkward at all, asshole". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Bur R and A didn't hate each other until Duskendale. In fact, it looked like Aerys was even proud of his son. In any case, Aerys never officially showed any preference over Viserys, except what "others" believe. And Aerys kept trusting Rhaegar in many things. Dunno, I don't want to label anything as "unreliable" but I believe the accounts of Aerys ' madness might be a bit exaggerated in order to present Tywin in a more positive light. No one denies that Tywin did make good things as Hand, but I believe that not only the King's men saw Rhaegar as something that could have stopped their ambitions. Maybe Tywin feared Aerys could have made Rhaegar his own hand. Poor Rhaegar... "Let's discuss ways to save my father" "Who cares? I have a better King right there!" *points at Rhaegar* "Yeah, that wasn't awkward at all, asshole". So you're saying, basically, that Tywin's comment drove a wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar, leading to Aerys's paranoia and maybe Rhaegar's plotting? That's putting quite a bit of blame on Tywin based off just one remark, isn't it? Aerys turned against Rhaegar after Duskendale because he turned against everyone. His madness was made much worse by his captivity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallion That Mounts Texas Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Agreed, Aerys’ madness was the sole downfall of House Targaryen, no matter what Rhaegar, Tywin, or Robert ultimately did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 So you're saying, basically, that Tywin's comment drove a wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar, leading to Aerys's paranoia and maybe Rhaegar's plotting? That's putting quite a bit of blame on Tywin based off just one remark, isn't it? Aerys turned against Rhaegar after Duskendale because he turned against everyone. His madness was made much worse by his captivity Can you assure that's the only thing he tried? Remember Pycelle was in the Council. Having Cersei in KL was quite a passive-aggresive move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Can you assure that's the only thing he tried? Remember Pycelle was in the Council. Having Cersei in KL was quite a passive-aggresive move. Can you provide a single example of him trying to turn Rhaegar against Aerys? Tywin isn't to blame for everything, I am sure Aerys was more than capable of driving a wedge between himself and his son without Tywin's help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallion That Mounts Texas Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 ^^ Jaime spoke to Cersei’s presence in in KL in AFFC. After Aerys rudely rebuffed Tywin’s offer of Cersei to Rhaegar, Jaime surmised that Tywin likely hoped for a match with Viserys. ^ Varys did more to drive the wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar than anything Tywin did. It was Varys who fed Aerys paranoia, by suggesting that Rhaegar was using tournaments to secretly raise the realm and set his father aside. It must be noted that Rhaegar did indeed intend to call a council and have his father removed, but he did not get around to it in time, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Yandel I don't think is naturally biased, but lets remember a couple of things. One the book is suppose to go to the Lannisters and Baratheons, so yeah it's going to have bias. And as mentioned Yendal is using the information he was given he has no first hand knowledge of these events. Pycelle being biased painted Tywin in the light of the 7. He is not going to bash Arryn because origianlly the book is for Robert and I don't think it would go over real well with Robert.Though thank god Robert didn't get it. I pretty sure Yandel ends up with his head on a spike after refering to Lyanna as boyish and unattractive, must of wrote that after Robert died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I think there was more of a Dornish bias if anything, because the actual authors are huge fans of Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I think there was more of a Dornish bias if anything, because the actual authors are huge fans of Dorne.I don't know about Dornish bias, though I would say they seemed rather large fans of Nymeria who seems to never have done anything wrong ever which would make her unique in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Yeah, about that... George wrote the stuff about Nymeria. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 ^^ Jaime spoke to Cersei’s presence in in KL in AFFC. After Aerys rudely rebuffed Tywin’s offer of Cersei to Rhaegar, Jaime surmised that Tywin likely hoped for a match with Viserys. ^ Varys did more to drive the wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar than anything Tywin did. It was Varys who fed Aerys paranoia, by suggesting that Rhaegar was using tournaments to secretly raise the realm and set his father aside. It must be noted that Rhaegar did indeed intend to call a council and have his father removed, but he did not get around to it in time, unfortunately. ok, first (and briefly because I'm sleepy), I'm not implying that is aaaaaall Tywin's fault. But, he could have had some involvement that the book (or Yandel, or Pycelle who was also present during the council meetings, I assume) could have tried to avoid. First, the mistrust of Rhaegar didn't start with Varys' arrival, as Barristan said. But I wouldn't discard the fact that Varys is a good scapegoat as he was both a foreign and a eunuch. And Rhaegar being disowned would benefit other people more than him, specially Aerys' council. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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