Jaak Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Were landless adult dragonriders allowed to vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 There were no landless adult dragonriders. The only dragonriders were members of the 40 families. The Celtigars and Velaryons were free Valyrian families who had no dragons. Not sure where the surname Baratheon came from (Orys, Aegon's half-brother), but that may have been another landowning dragonless family as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 There were no landless adult dragonriders. The only dragonriders were members of the 40 families. Yes. And these 40 families had over 300 adult members combined - 300 dragons fought Garin, plus dragonriders left behind in Valyria. Plus the dragons ridden by non-adults (Rhaenyra rode age 7) plus dragons ridden by adults who were noncombatantd due to advanced age or illness. Aenar the Exile sold his holdings in Valyria and moved to Dragonstone with "all his wives, wealth, slaves, dragons, siblings, kin, and children". The number of dragons was 5. His children attested by name is 2: Daenys the Dreamer, then maiden of unspecified age, and Gaemon the Glorious, later to marry and therefore deflower Daenys. We hear that Aenar had wives, plural, siblings, plural, and other kin. Who were the riders of the 5 dragons, if they indeed were all ridden (Balerion is confirmed hatched in Valyria, but was it specifically ridable then?)? Aenar´s wives must have been adult, at least they had borne one child old enough to dream by then. Siblings might have been adult, too. Did Aenar´s siblings, wives and children own their own lands in Valyria, that was not Aenar´s to sell, and the right to vote for themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Qoherys is another dragonless family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojam Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Where there Valyrian freemen , like middle class and even lower class Valyrians? Couldn't just be 300 people in the whole of Valyria?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs.Grumpy Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Where there Valyrian freemen , like middle class and even lower class Valyrians?Couldn't just be 300 people in the whole of Valyria?! Yes. If they have criminals among themselves, then there must be freemen. Ten Thousand Ships mentions Valyrian merchants and adventurers. DragonlordsSorcerors LandholdersFreemen; merchants, adventurers. Slaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulthosian Stark Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Where there Valyrian freemen , like middle class and even lower class Valyrians?Couldn't just be 300 people in the whole of Valyria?!I think that's what the Velaryons and Celtigars are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojam Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Yes. If they have criminals among themselves, then there must be freemen. Ten Thousand Ships mentions Valyrian merchants and adventurers. Dragonlords Sorcerors Landholders Freemen; merchants, adventurers. Slaves Don't exactly count slaves, still, that's ok. Be interesting to know what kind of slaves? By that I mean after the Roman Servile wars the Romans became very nervous about slaves and treated them better than before. There must have been good , medium and bad slave owners in Rome... but all in all seems slaves had a better deal as time went on in the Roman Empire. It's details , I know, but would like to know just how House Targaryen treated slaves on Dragonstone. Were they 'good' slavers. Also there had to be Valyrian artisans and artists who were not nobility. In fact like Rome a range of 'middle class' who had a role. Like some day to find out just how many House Targaryen vassels and court retainers were on Dragonstone. Maybe some day I will find out just who was in that 'small' army that came to Westeros with Aegon I. Seems it had to at least a thousand or so else wise how govern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Adder of Dorne Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Where there Valyrian freemen , like middle class and even lower class Valyrians?Couldn't just be 300 people in the whole of Valyria?! Celtigars would have had to be lower class than the Velaryons, otherwise the Targaryen surely would have married into them at some point. (Haven't read the book so if the Targaryen family tree proves me wrong, I'll be looking pretty dumb). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvd10 Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Did we get any other dragonlord family names except for Balaerys (I assume that was a dragonlord family)? I really wonder who the most powerful dragonlord families were and how strong the Valyrian army was. I believe it was said somewhere that Valyria sent 100 thousand men and 3 dragons against Garin in one of the battles against the Rhoynar, so I assume they had about twice as much soldiers as the reach, or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureOwl Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Did we get any other dragonlord family names except for Balaerys (I assume that was a dragonlord family)? I really wonder who the most powerful dragonlord families were and how strong the Valyrian army was. I believe it was said somewhere that Valyria sent 100 thousand men and 3 dragons against Garin in one of the battles against the Rhoynar, so I assume they had about twice as much soldiers as the reach, or more. That army was assembled by the Valyrian colonies (Volantis and Co.) The only peninsular contribution to that army where 3 dragonlords. It was later on that the dragonlors from Valyria came with 300+ dragons, and only dragons. If they had waited for grounds troops to march or sail all the way to the Rhoyne, Volantis would've fallen to Garin long before they got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 We just don't know enough about Valyria to know yet, OP. This is why I wish health and long life to GRRM. We still have 2 huge novels (at least) in this series. And as a Targaryen fan, I really do want Fire and Blood someday, with an huge and expanded section on Valyria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Taking Volantis as an example, presumably all men and women who owned sufficient land had the vote. That would be far more than 300 dragonlords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futhorc Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Jaenara Belaerys, so we have the names of two of forty ruling families. 38 to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Also we hear that Valyrians chose people titled "archon" for a limited time.What was the term of office for archon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Also we hear that Valyrians chose people titled "archon" for a limited time.What was the term of office for archon?It seems to me that they were governors sent to rule the colonies, gather tribute and slaves and such, while the dragonlords themselves all stayed at Valyria proper. EDIT: No idea about how long they stayed in their post...maybe until they dragonlords decide to remove them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 It seems to me that they were governors sent to rule the colonies, gather tribute and slaves and such, while the dragonlords themselves all stayed at Valyria proper. Yes, those are mentioned as well. What was the central government of Valyria at home like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Yes, those are mentioned as well. What was the central government of Valyria at home like? Not sure there was a real central government. Each noble house probably ruled their holdings as they saw fit, and the closest thing to central government probably were the heads of the dragonlord houses and maybe some very rich non-dragonlord noble houses gathering together to take decisions, distribute the slices of the territorial cake and name governors, tax collectors and magistrates for the colonies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Not sure there was a real central government. Each noble house probably ruled their holdings as they saw fit, and the closest thing to central government probably were the heads of the dragonlord houses and maybe some very rich non-dragonlord noble houses gathering together to take decisions, If the government was just the (unelected) heads of rich families then what was the vote of "all freeholders" used for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 If the government was just the (unelected) heads of rich families then what was the vote of "all freeholders" used for? I dunno, but we never hear about an elected Valyrian prince/triarch/archon of the whole Freehold. Each head of a dragonlord house and of very rich landholder families could vote when they had to decide important stuff, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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