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Walder Frey= Misunderstood


Seaworth'sShipmate

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I think Walder Frey is one of the most misunderstood characters in the whole series. People hate him, yet I do not think he is as evil as people think he is.



I know the red wedding was unpleasant, but he did it to save his family from the impending Lannister/ Tyrell juggernaut. Now the Riverlands are mostly at peace.



I know he is an unpleasant man, but at least he loves his children. He has so many of them and he just wants to do right by them. Thats why he is so desperate to find them husbands and wives, so they will be happy and have someone to love. He just wants to make sure his family is able to find their own niche in the world. Just look at Jinglebell, his son. In a world when most people's disabled children are abandoned, he provided for jingle bell, and gave him meaningful employment as a jester.



You could almost argue that he is a proponent of feminism in a very misogynistic society. Robb thought that he could jilt the hopes and dreams of Walders daughters, and spurn them. Walder sort of stood up for the rights of his female daughters when Robb was scornful of them.



Thoughts? I personally think the Stark fanboys go WAAYYY over the top in bashing this misunderstood man.




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The problem was not killing Robb and joining the Lannisters, the problem was that he chose to murder an entire army at a wedding. Him and Bolton could have taken out Robb, and a couple other key guys if needed, in an ambush, hunting "accident", etc and gained all the same benefits for his family without making them universally hated and responsible for the deaths of countless Northerners.

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The problem was not killing Robb and joining the Lannisters, the problem was that he chose to murder an entire army at a wedding. Him and Bolton could have taken out Robb, and a couple other key guys if needed, in an ambush, hunting "accident", etc and gained all the same benefits for his family without making them universally hated and responsible for the deaths of countless Northerners.

THIS

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The problem was not killing Robb and joining the Lannisters, the problem was that he chose to murder an entire army at a wedding. Him and Bolton could have taken out Robb, and a couple other key guys if needed, in an ambush, hunting "accident", etc and gained all the same benefits for his family without making them universally hated and responsible for the deaths of countless Northerners.

Yea, so he spat on certain social values and that made him socially unacceptable because, you know, society needs its values to function and guest rights should be upheld.

Frey is a breeder. Bottom line, he's in it for his offspring. His goal is to spread his sperm as far as possible and I don't think he really concerns himself with social values.

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Yea, so he spat on certain social values and that made him socially unacceptable because, you know, society needs its values to function and guest rights should be upheld.

Frey is a breeder. Bottom line, he's in it for his offspring. His goal is to spread his sperm as far as possible and I don't think he really concerns himself with social values.

I think you missed the point of my post so I will reiterate my point. Walder Frey has put his family in a bad position by making them universally despised and hated by all for their actions at the red wedding. He could have found a cleaner way to take care of business when he wacked Robb and company, and it would have benefited his family even more. He's an idiot who acted out of spite.

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I think you missed the point of my post so I will reiterate my point. Walder Frey has put his family in a bad position by making them universally despised and hated by all for their actions at the red wedding. He could have found a cleaner way to take care of business when he wacked Robb and company, and it would have benefited his family even more. He's an idiot who acted out of spite.

Yes, I agree he acted somewhat out of spite but the way Westeros is shaping up ignoring social values and being in it for your offspring seems like the less idiotic approach. Robb's dead. Tywin's dead. King's Landing is out of control. Knocking off the opposition and sending your numerous 'royal' offspring to various keeps around the land seems a better survival tactic than following the social standards, no?

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Walder didn't stand up for his daughters, he exorcised his own wounded pride. He demonstrated that his own selfishness is always paramount to his army being late at the Trident as to be sure he's on the winning side, to the original set of demands he browbeat out of Robb. Even in the world of dubious morality that is Westeros, the Red Wedding stands high among heinous acts. To even imply he's somehow standing up for women's rights is laughable given he's sired bastards and always seems to find a younger wife. Walder Frey is out for himself in everything he does.


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The problem was not killing Robb and joining the Lannisters, the problem was that he chose to murder an entire army at a wedding. Him and Bolton could have taken out Robb, and a couple other key guys if needed, in an ambush, hunting "accident", etc and gained all the same benefits for his family without making them universally hated and responsible for the deaths of countless Northerners.

Exactly! Or Walder could just close the Twins and declare for King Tommen and he would save himself and his House seven worlds of hate and hurt.

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Walder didn't stand up for his daughters, he exorcised his own wounded pride. He demonstrated that his own selfishness is always paramount to his army being late at the Trident as to be sure he's on the winning side, to the original set of demands he browbeat out of Robb. Even in the world of dubious morality that is Westeros, the Red Wedding stands high among heinous acts. To even imply he's somehow standing up for women's rights is laughable given he's sired bastards and always seems to find a younger wife. Walder Frey is out for himself in everything he does.

This. In every way, this.

The guys doesn't give two shits about his daughters rights, his ego took a beating that his family was set aside, and so he took his revenge. Simple as that.

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The way Walder talks about the women in his family (daughters, wives etc.) does NOT make him look like a feminist.


I think people rightly despise him - to function well, a society needs certain rules and norms; he broke one of them (guestright) in a massive orgy of slaughter that was entirely unnecessary even from a Machiavellian point of view. He has NOT really strengthened his position at all.


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He has NOT really strengthened his position at all.

But he has? With the Starks and Tullys dispersed, the Freys and Boltons are sitting pretty. The world as described in Feast was a shit heap - but the Freys are sitting on top of their little pile of dung.

Society is not functioning well in Westeros anymore - if it ever did. But the Frey's did strengthen their position as the society was crumbling.

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You could almost argue that he is a proponent of feminism in a very misogynistic society. Robb thought that he could jilt the hopes and dreams of Walders daughters, and spurn them. Walder sort of stood up for the rights of his female daughters when Robb was scornful of them.

You could, but you'd make a terrible fool of yourself if you did. Glad you didn't. B)

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I think Walder Frey is one of the most misunderstood characters in the whole series. People hate him, yet I do not think he is as evil as people think he is.

I know the red wedding was unpleasant, but he did it to save his family from the impending Lannister/ Tyrell juggernaut. Now the Riverlands are mostly at peace.

I know he is an unpleasant man, but at least he loves his children. He has so many of them and he just wants to do right by them. Thats why he is so desperate to find them husbands and wives, so they will be happy and have someone to love. He just wants to make sure his family is able to find their own niche in the world. Just look at Jinglebell, his son. In a world when most people's disabled children are abandoned, he provided for jingle bell, and gave him meaningful employment as a jester.

You could almost argue that he is a proponent of feminism in a very misogynistic society. Robb thought that he could jilt the hopes and dreams of Walders daughters, and spurn them. Walder sort of stood up for the rights of his female daughters when Robb was scornful of them.

Thoughts? I personally think the Stark fanboys go WAAYYY over the top in bashing this misunderstood man.

I think there is a number of problems with this concept but I understand where it may be coming from.

There is an ongoing difference of opinion, that the series makes as a minor theme, of the value of honor and loyalty. There are a good deal of people who believe that honor and morality end at the point where you are risking yourself and your family. There are some other people who disagree.

One of the binding tennets of a fuedal society is honor and loyalty. Their system depends on it. Today we do not have a society that depends so much on honor and loyalty, because we do not have a feudal society, so it is easy to have a different opinion of the matter.

But for the nobility of a medieval society, such as in Westeros, honor and loyalty are the very things that the nobility depends on to create stability.

Walder Frey betrayed his liege lords. He betrayed his King, and the Lord Paramount of the Trident, whom he had both made oaths to. You can argue that Robb betrayed him first, but Robb actually came to make ammends and attempt to repair the situation. The level of betrayal was not equal. Walder murdered not just his King, he captured his liege lord and handed him over to his enemies, and facilitated the murder and capture of several other nobles.

No one is ever going to trust Walder Frey, or just about any other Frey, ever again. Walder Frey did not in fact save his house, he destroyed it.

Contrast his actions with the actions of Wyman Manderly. His house is in extreme danger. He has had to do some things in the interim in order to save members of his house. But he has remained loyal to the Starks, and will eventually place his house back in danger. He risks his life and the life of his heirs out of loyalty and honor. Some may call this foolish, but whom would YOU rather have as a vassal, Wyman or Frey? These men and women are not raised because of their ability to keep themselves and their families safe. They are raised by their dependability in the face of that danger.

I also find problems with the idea that Walder was doing all this to save his family in the first place. Personally I feel Walder did what he did primarily out of injured pride. The readings of Walder by the Lannisters and Starks are that Walder is motivated at all times by his pride. I have seen nothing to show me that Walder Frey has a deep and abiding love of his wives or his sons and grandsons. I feel he would sacrifice ALL of them in order to stay alive for another few years as long as he could get some more wives and make some more sons.

The level of danger House Frey faced in the face of the Lannister/Tyrell "juggernaut" is debateable. The Lannisters had until recently been busy besieging Riverrun. The Riverlands as a whole are in turmoil. The Twins by all account are a tough nut to crack.

None of that really means anything in the end since Walder Frey is a betrayer. In our world, European medieval theology held that the lowest level of hell was reserved for betrayers, as evidenced by Dante's Inferno. In Japan betrayers were held in similar regard. In the end, I believe House Frey is finished. Their name is dirt with every other house in Westeros.

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Successful troll is successful.

Sometimes alternate viewpoint threads are needed around here, I feel. I won't go as far as to label them else wise :D

Perhaps it is because I have read the books in such rapid succession - but I think so many treads are focused on elements that fail to address the broader story unfolding in ASoIaF.

The world of Westeros is going to hell in a hand basket, has been since book 1. The less honorable characters and plays are gaining power. It's like the Joker, or John Doe from Se7en - the world around them is begging characters like Walder Frey and Ramsay Snow to rise. Arguing the rights and wrongs of it is avoiding the story. Westeros has crumbled. It's time for the former world to pass away.

Why are so many fans bogged down with the rights and wrongs of the characters, this is what I don't understand? Why aren't they involved in the meaning of the larger story?

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How else would you characterize intentional betrayal and murder of thousands of people as anything other than evil? All he wanted - breaking ties with Starks and joining the Lannister cause - he could have easily achieved without the mass-murder.



And where did you ever get the notion that he was misunderstood? People here understand his motivation very clearly, it's just that they find him utterly disgusting and abhorrent (while understanding him).


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The world of Westeros is going to hell in a hand basket, has been since book 1. The less honorable characters and plays are gaining power. It's like the Joker, or John Doe from Se7en - the world around them is begging characters like Walder Frey and Ramsay Snow to rise. Arguing the rights and wrongs of it is avoiding the story. Westeros has crumbled. It's time for the former world to pass away.

Why are so many fans bogged down with the rights and wrongs of the characters, this is what I don't understand? Why aren't they involved in the meaning of the larger story?

The question I have is whether these less honorable individuals are rising to power because Westeros is going to hell in a hand basket, or is Westeros going to hell in a hand basket because these less honorable individuals are making plays for power.

The North did not fall into disarray by itself. The causes of the fall of the North are directly related to the betrayals of Theon Greyjoy, Roose Bolton, and Walder Frey. They were not victims of circumstance. They are the architects of it. Westeros has gone to hell in a hand basket BECAUSE of the actions of less honorable men, not the opposite.

I feel, and I suspect many others do as well, that the rights and wrongs of the characters are indelibly linked to their fates. In this manner, their right and wrong actions ARE the story, because they are what drive events. I think those who believe that the overall theme of the series is going to be supportive of Machiavellianism or that the ends justify the means, are mistaken.

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