How much of the East is true?

[Stannis's Lawyer]

In real medieval books there were supposedly dog-headed men, dwarves with one foot, dragons, and such fantastic creatures in the East.

GRRM has said the same applies to Westeros, but he has also said that the average medieval monk would have known less about China than the average Maester knows about Asshai.

So how much do you think of the TWOIAF information about Essos east of the Bones is false, and how much is true?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I personally believe everything about Yi Ti, Patrimony of Hyrkoon and Jogos Nhai are all true.

One or two things might be wrong about Asshai, other than I believe everything.

Winged men and bloodless men are BS (unfortunately). Not sure about Bonetown. The book mentions towns made of bones (obviously it's Bonetown) but the app says they trade twisted and mysterious bones. So they trade stuff which is why I want to believe Bonetown is real.

K'Dath might be real due all that Lovecraft references. Shrykes are humans clad in lizard skin (I believe that).

Swan Maidens around Pentos are probably BS too.

But Deep Ones/Squishers are real deal.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I'm not buying pre-Long Night Yi Ti history. (Emperors reigning for centuries, the Long Night being a case of the gods punishing men for a rebellion against the queen.) The Eleven Dynasties is probably accurate, or close to it. Anything east of Yi Ti and the Jogos Nhai is vague and fuzzy (thar be winged men) on the edges of the known world. I doubt the walls of the Five Forts are 1000 ft high, because there's no reason to built anything that high. GRRM admitted he made the Wall too high.

Deep Ones in mines beneath Leng - I'm not buying that yet.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Deep Ones in mines beneath Leng - I'm not buying that yet.

Old Ones*

Yeah. I don't believe the legends about pre-Long Night history of Yi Ti. I mean you can tell the BS part in there.

[ummester]

All pre Long Night stuff is veiled by the mists of legend.

What can be assumed is the Long Night was global, that it freaked a lot of different races out and they made their own legends about it.

[Spring Bass]

The Assh'ai stuff may be exaggerated, since even Yandel admits that he's going off of little except rumors and stories (including Archmaester Merwyn's account). Presumably the Assh'ai are somehow getting the gold and valuable metals they need to trade for food through mining in the mountains nearby, unless they're trading magic for gold, and then gold for food. And the city may have been much bigger in the past*, since he describes it as being both incredibly huge and yet quite low in population. I'd love to see what "Stygai, city of corpses" is like at the heart of the Shadow.

Agreed that all of the pre-Long Night stuff should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I'd second that for most of the pre-Andal and Age of Heroes material in Westeros, since the only accounts the Andals would have of it would be oral history from the First Men and what they can decipher of the runes.

* There may be a connection there between Barth's stories about someone teaching the Valyrians how to tame dragons, the strange fire magic-created structures everywhere, and Asshai possibly being much smaller than what it once was while being impossibly ancient.

I'm skeptical that the people of the Thousand Isles are green-skinned with sharp teeth as well, although considering the "brindled men" you never know.

[ummester]

I don't think we'll get to see what Stygia is, other than in flashbacks or dreams, possibly Mel's. I think that Mel has been closer to Stygia than any major character in ASoIaF. Or, possibly, Dany could go to Asshai and get close to Stygia - I think it would destroy her and Drogon if they went all the way, though.

As far as humans are concerned, Essos is the old continent and Westeros the new - this much seems obvious.

Re Asshai and dragons, I think there is a definite connection. Bran's dream and now TWoIaF heavily suggest to me that Asshai was the place where dragons were born/created in some pre-Long Night era.

GRRM has said there is undoubtedly a polar ice cap, which I think is the Lands of Always Winter. This confirms the planet is a globe but doesn't confirm 2 polar ice caps. I think Asshai/Ulthos represent the southern polar region.

The angle of the equator is unknown and it is also unknown how much variance there is between magnetic and polar north on this planet, which I think changes quite a lot with the seasons. The magical explanation is dragons.

I think the world of ASoIaF is quite simply one where dragons, which were created by ancient human fire and blood magic, somehow destroyed the southern polar region and made it a land of shadow. The Long Night was either an environmental or magical (possibly a combination) response to this.

The Targs could well have been genetically enhanced, or magically imbued by powers from Asshai that still wish to see the world bathed in dragonfire. The battle between R'hollor and the Old Gods, or fire and ice, is quite long standing and unresolved, with the world unbalanced because of it and the Andals with their new gods caught in the middle.

[cgf]

It seems like there's a good deal of truth behind many of the legends. Likely warped by time the way the history of westeros has been, but still based on truth.

[ummester]

yes, like all legends & mythology cgf - there is some basis for truth at their heart.

Long Nights/Ragnarok/End Times are very prominent in all mythology, so it makes sense for GRRM to tap into the concept for his fantasy saga.

We should not forget, that unlike Tolkien who was writing a saga from a point in human history where people had recently confronted the worst of each other with WW2 and were building their real world towards a new, more hopeful place, Martin is writing from an point in human history where people have reached a super saturation of greed and apathy and are verging on a destructive event. It seems very logical to me that in Tolkien's world goodness was internal and evil external, whereas in Martin's universe evil is internal and goodness will be the external event that resets the internal evil. All literature and mythology is ultimately a reflection of humanity, or human understanding, after all.