Robert's Rebellion and the Victor's History

[Forever May]

I originally posted this in another thread but it was probably out of place, so I'll make a new thread. I was wondering what other people thought. The idea is simple, that the version of history we commonly hear is that of the victor. Martin typically feeds us the pro-Rebellion history and Dany, the only person who might've been able to give us an alternate, is not much of a scholar (to say the least).

A lot of us might be inclined to believe the version of history Martin has fed us because it is delivered largely by the Starks, who generally seem to be trustworthy. However, we really know little about how strict Ned might've been in the past and he might not be so chivalrous as some might like to believe.

There is also the issue that Martin has gone to a length to hide Jon's parentage from us. This is quite significant because his parentage really lies at the heart of the Rebellion, meaning what happened in the heart of the Rebellion is definitely not concrete. The war started when Lord Rickard tried to get Lyanna back from Rhaegar, and Rickard was obviously killed in the process, along with Brandon.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rickard_Stark

Here is a quote from the above link:

"The son of Edwyle Stark, Rickard and his wife had four children: Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen Stark. He negotiated the betrothals of Brandon and Lyanna to Catelyn Tully and Robert Baratheon, respectively.^[3] According to Barbrey Dustin the southern marriages were the idea of Rickard's maester at the time, Walys.^[4]

Before any of the marriages could take place Lyanna disappeared. Brandon held Rhaegar Targaryen, the heir to the throne, responsible and went with a small company of young nobles to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar. Aerys II had them all imprisoned on charges of conspiring to kill the crown prince and summoned their fathers to answer for the crimes of their sons. The nobles went and were immediately executed with their sons by Aerys. As was his right, Rickard demanded a trial by combat. Jaime Lannister relates that Aerys granted Rickard's request but to Aerys, the Targaryen champion was fire. He had Rickard burned, with the pyromancer Rossart lighting a fire beneath him while Rickard was dressed in his armor. Brandon was made to watch his father die with a noose around his neck and a sword just out of his reach. Trying to reach the sword to save his father, Brandon strangled himself.^[5]

In the crypts of Winterfell there is a statue of Rickard at his tomb, which is flanked by those of Brandon and Lyanna. Rickard's engraving is said to match his appearance in life with a "long, stern face."^[3]

Rickard was succeeded by his second son Eddard. Together with Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon, Eddard led the revolt against the Targaryens that overthrew their dynasty."

Now it is significant because, what if Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar and didn't want to marry Robert, presumably because Robert was a pig. (?)

Here is the original post:

If Lyanna loved Rhaegar, then what does that mean Robert was going to do? We are told the war was fought to stop a man from kidnapping and raping a girl, right? Is it actually the complete opposite? Robert was a pig even when Lyanna knew him, as we know he was fathering bastards in the Vale. Thus, Lyanna might have honestly turned her nose up at Robert in disgust, just as Cersei later did (remember Cersei originally was happy to wed Robert, but the endless drinking and whoring spoiled things).

So what was Robert going to do when he found Lyanna? Kill Rhaegar, who was trying to protect her, kidnap her and rape her? And where was Ned in all of this? Is it possible that Ned is actually for the arranged marriage thing and believed Lyanna had dishonored their House by breaking a marriage pack? Does Ned believe Robert had a right to forcefully seize and rape Lyanna because daddy had said so?

If all of this is true and we have been fed a totally warped version of history written by the victors, Dany might be right to have a belly full of hatred and I will support her. I am only worried however that she will take things too far, such as something dumb like killing Sansa to pay Ned back or such.

With Martin having to keep Jon's parentage from us, he has also had to hide things like this, the cause of the Rebellion, which really only makes it more interesting. Although what is decidedly interesting is, to me, it now seems King Aerys might've been the one in the right, despite his horrid actions, he might've actually been trying to protect Lyanna who was pursuing her true love Rhaegar and trying to flee the prospect of a horrid husband such as Robert.

It matters a lot for how it will come out. It can really flip things upside down, as without knowing this then there appears little reason to support Dany because her father Aerys would've otherwise kind of deserved to be dethroned. But once you learn that Aerys and Rhaegar were trying to protect the wishes of the fayre may Lyanna, well that obviously changes things and you suddenly get a wash of sympathy! I've always thought the Starks and Robert had the right of it, but now it just seems an incorrect version of history and they were effectively trying to kidnap and rape Lyanna, or as close to that as forced marriage and consummation gets, and this presumably all for the ambitions of a handful of High Lords trying to cement their power.

What do other people think of this and is there any information I am missing?

Yours truly,

Thow fayrest may that euer went.

EDIT AND FINAL NOTE:

There is something I should add, in hindsight, after I had more time to think about it. Here goes,

It changes things to say that, “Robert’s lust for Lyanna was a madness in him that cost the realm dearly. When she had chosen another man, a Targaryen, and neither her brother nor father respected her decision and the Usurper found only revenge might sate his jealousy.”

If this is revealed, perhaps by Barristan or Jaime, it provides a compelling emotional twist. This exact piece of history is literally directly implied if the theory R+L=J plus they were married is correct, but Martin has stricken it from the thusfar revealed historical record solely to protect his plot with Jon’s lineage.

For one, when Jon is told of his parentage, an immediate question is clearly going to be, “But did not Rhaegar rape Lyanna?” It might horrify him. So how can anyone deny that learning it was the opposite is significant!

Likewise is the plot of Daenerys. The moment someone throws at her the Robert version of history, that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna which justified the Rebellion, if she throws back that Rhaegar was in love and protecting the woman he loved, it is an instant win as in truth Robert had no moral bearing.

The Rebellion began because Aerys burned Rickard, a lot of people seem to insist, but that burning and the execution of Brandon as well began with heated and false allegations. In other words, the Rebellion began with Brandon’s misstep, not Aerys’s.

It is difficult to list the exact punishment Brandon may have deserved (and subsequently Rickard, assuming he reiterated his son’s allegations when he was summoned). To accuse the crown prince of kidnapping and possibly rape however, this is a grievous crime by contemporary Westerosi standards. I am in the process of rereading the books right now and am at early in Game of Thrones and one piece stood out. When Littlefinger takes Ned to meet Catelyn as soon as he arrives in King’s Landing, it is noted by Littlefinger that accusing Robert of involvement in Bran’s attempted assassination is treason and you will meet Ilyn Payne for it. Not the most similar of examples, yet it is really the same thing, accusing royals of a crime is not something to be taken lightly.

What I really really really want to know is the exact wording of what Brandon and Rickard after him said. It is entirely possible that they were both arrogant toward Aerys and both accused Rhaegar of crimes he did not commit and were thus both guilty of treason, the punishment of which is legally death, as they were served. Moreover, why did Aerys summon the other lords he summoned? Is there honestly no reason for this other than excessive paranoia, or is it possible the Stark – Tully – Arryn – Barratheon alliance was actually a serious and real threat that he uncovered? I frankly think it is entirely possible. When you realize four of the nine great Houses, all neighbours, were intermarrying like rabbits, it is naïve to dismiss it and say their ambitions ended at marriage.

The thing that is certain is, when Jon learns of his parentage, it is absolutely certainly going to be served with a dish of wake-the-hell-up history. That is why the thread here was regarding the implications of R+L=J, but most people didn’t get it and preferred to try and derail my point by justifying rape instead. The implications are something that is entirely overlooked. Most people seem to have the assumption Jon will be told who he is and think no more of it. Likewise, that the teller of this tale is simply going to rock up and say, “Oh hey, your mama and father were Rhaegar and Lyanna. Anyway, see you later.” Nope.

Martin held back a huge part of his history trying to keep R+L=J a relative mystery. You cannot deny this. When he reveals the truth, with that truth will come the swath of history that has thusfar been kept stricken from record. I am surprised there has not been more speculation on what that might be, and the implications it may have for:

Emotional relevance for major characters (Dany and Jon, mostly),

Justification for the Rebellion in the first place,

And with the above two, the implicit fact that if Brandon committed treason and even Rickard after him, then the removal of the Targaryen dynasty on the grounds of a criminal king collapses. Really, Robert becomes a criminal along with all the rebels and the Iron Throne belongs to Dany or Jon or maybe even Tyrion!

Anyway, enough said. I wanted to bring this up because I thought it was relevant and unaddressed. It’s a shame people chose to hound me about their thoughts on the sacrosanct right men have to rape women. But I hope it inspired at least someone to think into the emotional implications of some of these theories floating around, instead of focusing on the hard facts and direct consequences. As I believe the emotional repercussions of the truth may be just as significant, especially when you are talking about Targaryens who have a tendency to flare on such matters.

------------

EDIT – UPDATE, new info

In the chapter in Game of Thrones where Eddard catches Arya with Needle in her quarters in the Red Keep, Ned tells her, “You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”

What Eddard is telling us is, he blames in some part the willful nature of both Lyanna and Brandon for their deaths. Given Lyanna was supposedly raped to death and Brandon was supposedly murdered on absentee legal basis, this makes absolutely no sense. If you believe the official version of Westerosi history, then Eddard is lying or exaggerating. Given Eddard is most likely telling the truth to Arya, what does this mean?

Brandon was brought to his death by the wolf blood because his bold nature took him straight to King’s Landing to make accusations against Rhaegar to Aerys that were either premature or false. In other words, Brandon acted before thinking and lost his life because of it.

Lyanna’s willful nature likewise was responsible for her running away with Rhaegar. Again, there is little other conclusion, as being raped to death doesn’t quite explain how the wolf blood might have brought her to an early grave. Eddard’s words suggest it was Lyanna’s free will that led her to her end.

I will keep my eyes out for more snippets like this…

EDIT – UPDATE, new info

See this theory:

http://towerofthehan...ions/index.html

(Note, to make the theory in that link visible, click "scope" and use your brain)

It is relevant here because it goes some distance towards explaining why Aerys acted the way he did when confronted by Brandon with most probably arrogant and false accusations. It reiterates a point I made earlier that Aerys might have been quite accurate in accusing some of treason, he merely handled it poorly on account of his mental illness.

[Cat of the Rivers]

With Martin having to keep Jon's parentage from us, he has also had to hide things like this, the cause of the Rebellion, which really only makes it more interesting. Although what is decidedly interesting is, to me, it now seems King Aerys might've been the one in the right, despite his horrid actions, he might've actually been trying to protect Lyanna who was pursuing her true love Rhaegar and trying to flee the prospect of a horrid husband such as Robert.

It matters a lot for how it will come out. It can really flip things upside down, as without knowing this then there appears little reason to support Dany because her father Aerys would've otherwise kind of deserved to be dethroned. But once you learn that Aerys and Rhaegar were trying to protect the wishes of the fayre may Lyanna, well that obviously changes things and you suddenly get a wash of sympathy! I've always thought the Starks and Robert had the right of it, but now it just seems an incorrect version of history and they were effectively trying to kidnap and rape Lyanna, or as close to that as forced marriage and consummation gets, and this presumably all for the ambitions of a handful of High Lords trying to cement their power.

First of all let's examine medieval marriages. Marriages are alliances in a feudal society. People of that society particularly the nobles are effected by such alliances. Marriages are what stops wars from happening, ensures your bannermen's loyalty and the children of the match are basically walking, talking proof of the alliance. This is why nobles "duties" are emphasized because if people run off and marry for love such alliances are ruined and the kingdom and your relationships with other nobles are damaged. That's the kind of thing that creates wars and gets innocent people killed.

Noblemen and women are expected to marry for duty in exchange for living in a fancy castle and not worrying about starving to death during winter. They have responsibilities in exchange of privileges. It's rather foolish of Lyanna to pursue her "true love" (again I'm saying this because she is a noblewoman in a medieval society) and again her "true love" was already married and had children.

I cannot except that Aerys's was "in right" when his actions horrifically killed two innocent men one who was the Lord Paramount and one who was his heir to boot. And Aerys killed almost an entire party of innocent men save one which included the heir to the Eyrie. His actions were both morally repugnant and politically stupid. Aerys crossed the line when he did that and in no way was he in the right despite what heroic notions he might have had at first. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I find it highly unrealistic that Aerys would be all for L+R. In Westeros's society Rhaegar's actions endangers the alliance with the Martells.

I do not have any sympathy for Rhaegar or Aerys seeing how Rhaegar's actions created a chain reaction and Aerys was the one with the most responsibility in starting RR and got thousands killed.

There's a difference between arranged marriages and forced marriages. Arranged marriages are usually an agreement between the families in question (the third party) usually the parents of the bride and groom. A forced marriage is when one of the two parties (the family) has no consent in the arrangement such as Tyrion/Sansa. I find it a severe exaggeration to say that they were "kidnapping" and "raping" Lyanna or "forcing her into consummation." If we apply this logic we also have to apply this to Catelyn and Ned, Selyse and Stannis and all the arranged marriages there ever was in Westeros.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I would add that in a medieval society there was some leeway for women to veto a husband. It all depends on the particular father and daughter obviously, but it happened. Sometime it implied joining a convent (a fate less grim than you'd think, head of convents were sometime more powerful than minor nobles), often it meant compromising with the father and finding an acceptable match both to the family and the bride.

Rickard is no Tywin (as far as we know) and Lyanna is supposed to be a strong young woman so if Robert was that abhorrent to her, it was possible to put her foot down and refuse. Rickard would have been embarassed, but I find it unlikely the marriage would have gone through with a sword at her back. Obviously, this wouldn't have translated into receiving Rickard's blessing for the first polygamous marriage in centuries with Rhaegar! They'd have had to reach an acceptable compromise.

If she did love Rhaegar and went along with the elopement, that was a teenager displaying the notorious foolishness and selfishness inherent to her age. Which is to say that I don't think it makes her a horrible person, far from it, but she was wrong to do it. IMO anyway. This amounts to wanting all of the privilege of being a noble but none of the responsibilities (not an uncommon sentiment amongst nobles, mind you!).

[Cat of the Rivers]

I would add that in a medieval society there was some leeway for women to veto a husband. It all depends on the particular father and daughter obviously, but it happened. Sometime it implied joining a convent (a fate less grim than you'd think, head of convents were sometime more powerful than minor nobles), often it meant compromising with the father and finding an acceptable match both to the family and the bride.

Rickard is no Tywin (as far as we know) and Lyanna is supposed to be a strong young woman so if Robert was that abhorrent to her, it was possible to put her foot down and refuse. Rickard would have been embarassed, but I find it unlikely the marriage would have gone through with a sword at her back. Obviously, this wouldn't have translated into receiving Rickard's blessing for the first polygamous marriage in centuries with Rhaegar! They'd have had to reach an acceptable compromise.

If she did love Rhaegar and went along with the elopement, that was a teenager displaying the notorious foolishness and selfishness inherent to her age. Which is to say that I don't think it makes her a horrible person, far from it, but she was wrong to do it. IMO anyway. This amounts to wanting all of the privilege of being a noble but none of the responsibilities (not an uncommon sentiment amongst nobles, mind you!).

Catelyn and Brandon met a few times, Jaime went to visit Lysa, Elia and Oberyn were going to hang out with Jaime and Cersei had Tywin not refused, Arianne wanted to visit Edmure but Doran refused etc. So obviously the parents at least give the children some time to get to know each other. Of course there are going to be pushy parents who don't really give a damn about the personal wishes of their children but still they do to some extent care about whether they like them or not.

I think that's what makes Lyanna's death so tragic. She made a couple of foolish mistakes (again if she went off with Rhaegar) which given her age were wrong but understandable and definitely didn't warrant early death.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Your theory got one problem: The rebellion was not about Lyanna in any way. It was about murdering Rickard and Brandon in a very horrible way and Aerys trying to do the same to Ned and Robert.

Don't let yourself be confused by the show.

[Knight Of Winter]

There's another problem with your theory: whole characterization of Ned Stark. In a thousand years, I can't imagine him delivering his sister to a guy who would rape her as punishment.

Or take a look at Brandon. Which do you think is more likely: that he wanted to kill Rhaegar because he thought Rhaegar has abducted and raped his sister; or because Rheagar helped Lyanna disobey their father?

Also, what about your thesis that Aerys and Rhaegar were simply complying with Lyanna's wish? Does that mean that Lyanna wanted them to kill half of Stark and Baratheon families? Did Lyanna want her father to be burned to death? According to Lyanna's characterization so far - hell no.

[Forever May]

Your theory got one problem: The rebellion was not about Lyanna in any way. It was about murdering Rickard and Brandon in a very horrible way and Aerys trying to do the same to Ned and Robert.

Don't let yourself be confused by the show.

Where am I confused by the show?

Anyway, yes the Rebellion was about that murder and the way those Starks were murdered was abhorrent. But whether or not Aerys was right to punish the Starks matters a lot. Aerys might not have been right to burn Rickard alive and strangle Brandon, but if those Starks were demanding the return of Lyanna who was engaged to Rhaegar and she was not being held against her will, then punishment was deserved. Perhaps in the form of a stern warning and, if that did not suffice, a disentitlement or such.

There's another problem with your theory: whole characterization of Ned Stark. In a thousand years, I can't imagine him delivering his sister to a guy who would rape her as punishment.

What if he didn't view it as rape, though? Ned was a cold and rigid kind of guy. Moreover, it is quite common for people not to be in love when they are wed in these sorts of situations. In an arranged marriage, love comes in time (hopefully). If Ned held this view, that it was simply a wedding and Lyanna would "get used to the idea" of being married to Robert, then yes it is kidnap and rape and yes I can see Ned going through with it without flinching.

Also, what about your thesis that Aerys and Rhaegar were simply complying with Lyanna's wish? Does that mean that Lyanna wanted them to kill half of Stark and Baratheon families? Did Lyanna want her father to be burned to death? According to Lyanna's characterization so far - hell no.

Presumably, Rhaegar and Lyanna had run off south on a honeymoon or whatever and the Starks met Aerys instead, who has a history of taking things a little far. No, Lyanna would not want that done and her family burned, but she probably had no idea what was going on in the capital and what Aerys was capable of. And after the Rebellion started, it was too late anyway - if Robert won the war, Lyanna's husband would be killed, if Aerys won, her family would be killed. Lyanna never had any choice or say, it seems.

[Forever May]

Rickard is no Tywin (as far as we know) and Lyanna is supposed to be a strong young woman so if Robert was that abhorrent to her, it was possible to put her foot down and refuse.

That's a lot of ifs about something you really have no idea about.

This is what I am saying about Ned and the Starks before him, we really don't know. Martin builds people up in certain lights just so he can shatter their expectations. That's clearly what he is doing with Dany, for example, making the perfect picture of a poor girl all the readers are meant to sympathize with, you can see Martin is making Dany into a Mad Queen however, very slowly, and it is going to be shocking to many of the readers. Is it so impossible he can do the same things with the Starks? The only thing we know about how Ned ran his House was him executing a Night's Watchman fleeing from the Others. Whilst that was just the punishment, Ned was cold as ice about it. They're all cold. So how is not caring much for the whims of their daughters out of character here? If we were talking about Martells or something, yeah I'd rule it out, but the idea Rickard was forcing his daughter into a marriage she didn't want and that Robert was too hard headed to take no for an answer, it is entirely believable and a good twist in the story that will once again shock readers - the Starks were cold, surprise surprise!

If she did love Rhaegar and went along with the elopement, that was a teenager displaying the notorious foolishness and selfishness inherent to her age.

There's nothing wrong with what Lyanna did. Seriously, how is it foolish or selfish? If I am right, it is Rickard who was being selfish and Robert who was being the monstrous fool.

[Dorian Martell]

Where am I confused by the show?

Anyway, yes the Rebellion was about that murder and the way those Starks were murdered was abhorrent. But whether or not Aerys was right to punish the Starks matters a lot. Aerys might not have been right to burn Rickard alive and strangle Brandon, but if those Starks were demanding the return of Lyanna who was engaged to Rhaegar and she was not being held against her will, then punishment was deserved. Perhaps in the form of a stern warning and, if that did not suffice, a disentitlement or such.

But he didn't punish them in a way befit of the Warden and Lord Paramount of the North and his heir. that's the point. When he then called for the heads of another Stark heir and the Lord of Storms End is when "shit got real" and Jon Arryn called his banners

[Universal Sword Donor]

But he didn't punish them in a way befit of the Warden and Lord Paramount of the North and his heir. that's the point. When he then called for the heads of another Stark heir and the Lord of Storms End is when "shit got real" and Jon Arryn called his banners

Even worse, Ned *was* LP of the North and Lord of WF at that point, so Aerys was gunning for 3 LPs in a few months, possibly 4 if Rickard died before Brandon.

[Forever May]

But he didn't punish them in a way befit of the Warden and Lord Paramount of the North and his heir. that's the point. When he then called for the heads of another Stark heir and the Lord of Storms End is when "shit got real" and Jon Arryn called his banners

But that's not the point I'm talking about. I know Aerys over reacted. Than doesn't change the fact he may have been in the right and the Starks and Robert were trying to kidnap Lyanna against her will and have her wed and bedded, i.e. raped. Total reversal.

[unitron]

Where am I confused by the show?

Anyway, yes the Rebellion was about that murder and the way those Starks were murdered was abhorrent. But whether or not Aerys was right to punish the Starks matters a lot. Aerys might not have been right to burn Rickard alive and strangle Brandon, but if those Starks were demanding the return of Lyanna who was engaged to Rhaegar and she was not being held against her will, then punishment was deserved. Perhaps in the form of a stern warning and, if that did not suffice, a disentitlement or such.

What if he didn't view it as rape, though? Ned was a cold and rigid kind of guy. Moreover, it is quite common for people not to be in love when they are wed in these sorts of situations. In an arranged marriage, love comes in time (hopefully). If Ned held this view, that it was simply a wedding and Lyanna would "get used to the idea" of being married to Robert, then yes it is kidnap and rape and yes I can see Ned going through with it without flinching.

Presumably, Rhaegar and Lyanna had run off south on a honeymoon or whatever and the Starks met Aerys instead, who has a history of taking things a little far. No, Lyanna would not want that done and her family burned, but she probably had no idea what was going on in the capital and what Aerys was capable of. And after the Rebellion started, it was too late anyway - if Robert won the war, Lyanna's husband would be killed, if Aerys won, her family would be killed. Lyanna never had any choice or say, it seems.

You seem to have forgotten that Rhaegar was already married to someone else, and even if being a Targ made bigamy acceptable for him, he still needed to negotiate a marriage to Lyanna with her father, not just carry her off without a word to anybody just because she was willing, 'cause in that society parents, especially the father, had the right to arrange marriages for their children and the children had a duty to obey their wishes in the matter.

[Universal Sword Donor]

But that's not the point I'm talking about. I know Aerys over reacted. Than doesn't change the fact he may have been in the right and the Starks and Robert were trying to kidnap Lyanna against her will and have her wed and bedded, i.e. raped. Total reversal.

Except that Rickard would not have factored into that at all. There was literally no justification to kill him.

[Malik Ambar]

IMHO you're over thinking this.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

^ Yes, OP, and I just don't think Aerys and Rhaegar were working together until the end of RR. It's clear throughout all 5 books that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. King Aerys is never associated with Lyanna's disappearance, and it's unclear how much he knew or when. Aerys certainly didn't do anything that we know of to Lyanna or the Starks until Brandon came storming into the Red Keep.

(Although of course, TWoW may prove us all wrong!)

[Cat of the Rivers]

Anyway, yes the Rebellion was about that murder and the way those Starks were murdered was abhorrent. But whether or not Aerys was right to punish the Starks matters a lot. Aerys might not have been right to burn Rickard alive and strangle Brandon, but if those Starks were demanding the return of Lyanna who was engaged to Rhaegar and she was not being held against her will, then punishment was deserved. Perhaps in the form of a stern warning and, if that did not suffice, a disentitlement or such.

What if he didn't view it as rape, though? Ned was a cold and rigid kind of guy. Moreover, it is quite common for people not to be in love when they are wed in these sorts of situations. In an arranged marriage, love comes in time (hopefully). If Ned held this view, that it was simply a wedding and Lyanna would "get used to the idea" of being married to Robert, then yes it is kidnap and rape and yes I can see Ned going through with it without flinching.

Presumably, Rhaegar and Lyanna had run off south on a honeymoon or whatever and the Starks met Aerys instead, who has a history of taking things a little far. No, Lyanna would not want that done and her family burned, but she probably had no idea what was going on in the capital and what Aerys was capable of. And after the Rebellion started, it was too late anyway - if Robert won the war, Lyanna's husband would be killed, if Aerys won, her family would be killed. Lyanna never had any choice or say, it seems.

One thing I don't think to seem that you grasp is that again this is during the medieval times. Punishing a nobleman for arranging a marriage for his daughter is absolutely absurd. Going by your logic Aerys himself should be punished because he arranged a marriage between Rhaegar and Elia.

Also when in hell was she engaged to Rhaegar? It's not a fact.

Yeah, Ned went through the idea without flinching. For fifteen years in fact. You know, during his own wedding and marriage. Arranged marriage is not rape no matter how much you insist it is. By your logic Ned himself (and Catelyn too for that matter) were raped. "Getting used to the idea" is pretty much living in an arranged medieval marriage. Hopefully you fall in love like Ned and Cat did but if not just provide heirs and spend your time apart. It's not "rape" and it's not "kidnap." It's their duty as a nobleman/woman to get married to someone their parents chose for them to make alliances and prevent wars.

Also "Rhaegar and Lyanna were married" is a theory. It's not a fact.

The only thing we know about how Ned ran his House was him executing a Night's Watchman fleeing from the Others. Whilst that was just the punishment, Ned was cold as ice about it. They're all cold. So how is not caring much for the whims of their daughters out of character here? If we were talking about Martells or something, yeah I'd rule it out, but the idea Rickard was forcing his daughter into a marriage she didn't want and that Robert was too hard headed to take no for an answer, it is entirely believable and a good twist in the story that will once again shock readers - the Starks were cold, surprise surprise!

There's nothing wrong with what Lyanna did. Seriously, how is it foolish or selfish? If I am right, it is Rickard who was being selfish and Robert who was being the monstrous fool.

What when Ned's beheading a guy should he invite him over for tea and cookies? He's supposed to be cold! We know that all of Ned's bannermen respected him and that guy from the mountains tells Bran and co. that when Ned ruled the North a woman could walk naked and nobody would dare lay a hand on her. He seems like a good ruler to me (albeit the KL fiasco).

Saying the Starks are all cold? Nice generalization you've got there. Arya, Lyanna and Brandon had "wolf blood" which translates into "hot blooded" and "reckless". And Ned was warm and kind to his children and his retainers felt loyalty to him.

She ran away when she had responsibility and duties as a noblewoman in a medieval society. That was selfish and foolish. Like I pointed out before in exchange for not starving to death you don't get to marry who you love. If she wanted to live free and wild fine by me but she has to renounce all claim to titles and privileges as a noblewoman and live as a peasant.

[Malik Ambar]

Also, Bobby B and Ned genuinely loved Lyanna. Your assumptions are based on the notion that they would value street rep over her which is textually proved as incorrect

[Cat of the Rivers]

Also, Bobby B and Ned genuinely loved Lyanna. Your assumptions are based on the notion that they would value street rep over her which is textually proved as incorrect

I agree.

[Forever May]

You seem to have forgotten that Rhaegar was already married to someone else, and even if being a Targ made bigamy acceptable for him, he still needed to negotiate a marriage to Lyanna with her father, not just carry her off without a word to anybody just because she was willing, 'cause in that society parents, especially the father, had the right to arrange marriages for their children and the children had a duty to obey their wishes in the matter.

It's a right I don't agree with, so I really don't care! Besides, having the legal right to force a woman into bed does not make it any less rape, this is my whole and only point.

It's clear throughout all 5 books that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. King Aerys is never associated with Lyanna's disappearance,

How is it clear? And I never said Aerys was working with Rhaegar and Lyanna all planed like. What I mean is, Starks show up and say, "Give me my daughter back." Aerys throws back, "No, she just married my son by her own choice." Starks throw back, "I wanna duel for this then." Aerys nods and says, "Very wel. Fetch the pyromancers!"

[The Bastard of Walton]

Both Rhaeger, Lyanna and Aerys are responsible for the Rebellion. History is written by the victors, but sometimes the facts cannot be argued over.