"The Winged Wolf" A Bran Stark Re-read Project - Part 1: AGOT

[BearQueen87]

Very In depth analysis BearQueen :bowdown:

Thanks Queen Alysanne!

Just wanted to say quickly that these are great! I've started my re-read, a little later than you guys but I have been lurking and reading all your excellent analysis and observations!

Bravo to you all! I may join in at some point but there is a graceful flow to this forum that I don't want to interrupt (which, not that I think of it, I hope I'm not doing now). :uhoh:

Pop in anytime!

[MoIaF]

Just wanted to say quickly that these are great! I've started my re-read, a little later than you guys but I have been lurking and reading all your excellent analysis and observations!

Bravo to you all! I may join in at some point but there is a graceful flow to this forum that I don't want to interrupt (which, not that I think of it, I hope I'm not doing now). :uhoh:

:cheers:

Welcome! Glad you decided to take my advice and join us. :grouphug:

[Ser Cold Fingers]

:cheers:

Welcome! Glad you decided to take my advice and join us. :grouphug:

I'm glad I took your advice too! I've been cheating on my Bran chapters...I read the analysis of the chapter first then read the chapter and was astonished by what I missed during my first two reads!

[Illuminated by Fire]

Just wanted to say quickly that these are great! I've started my re-read, a little later than you guys but I have been lurking and reading all your excellent analysis and observations!

Bravo to you all! I may join in at some point but there is a graceful flow to this forum that I don't want to interrupt (which, not that I think of it, I hope I'm not doing now). :uhoh:

Of course you can participate at any time. This is a forum thread, if people get the feeling that they can not do that, something has gone wrong along the way. Welcome to the re-read!

[DarkSister1001]

Just wanted to pop in and say hello. I hope you all have had a nice holiday and have a happy and safe New Year. :cheers:

[BearQueen87]

Just wanted to pop in and say hello. I hope you all have had a nice holiday and have a happy and safe New Year. :cheers:

Same to you! Can't wait to start back up in a few days :)

[DarkSister1001]

Same to you! Can't wait to start back up in a few days :)

Thank you! Yes ma'am, I'm going through withdrawals. lol

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Happy New Years Eve to you all! :thumbsup:

I can't wait to see y'all back to work either...I love the analysis. :D

[DarkSister1001]

Just have to share bc it's such an anomaly....I live in Las Vegas and it's snowing! :D Productivity down the drain.

[MoIaF]

Just have to share bc it's such an anomaly....I live in Las Vegas and it's snowing! :D Productivity down the drain.

Haha! It always cracks me up when states that are not use to snow get it. Is as if the snow becomes a sentient being and everyone is paralyzed by it. it's frozen water people...

[BearQueen87]

Haha! It always cracks me up when states that are not use to snow get it. Is as if the snow becomes a sentient being and everyone is paralyzed by it. it's frozen water people...

*glances up north to the Others and the Prologue*

Run, Californians/Nevadaians. Run.

No snow in Ohio, though. Just SO FREAKING COLD

[MoIaF]

*glances up north to the Others and the Prologue*

Run, Californians/Nevadaians. Run.

No snow in Ohio, though. Just SO FREAKING COLD

Ah, it's not so bad. It becomes an old friend after a while. I will say that even here in Boston, the first snow always gets everyone discombobulated. I just don't get, when get tons of won every year people, deal with it!

​It's very cold here as well - seem that winter has indeed arrived. Last week was stingily warm, though.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

Haha! It always cracks me up when states that are not use to snow get it. Is as if the snow becomes a sentient being and everyone is paralyzed by it. it's frozen water people...

Try living in the UK, a few inches of snow - the whole country shuts down and I mean that literally.

[DarkSister1001]

Haha! It always cracks me up when states that are not use to snow get it. Is as if the snow becomes a sentient being and everyone is paralyzed by it. it's frozen water people...

We can usually go on a quick 45 min drive to the mountains to see it but the valley floor just doesn't happen often. It was magical. lol

[MoIaF]

AGOT - Bran VII

“In the dream I flew down with the crow, but I can’t do that when I’m awake”

SUMMARY

We begin Bran’s last chapter of AGOT with his observing the new recruits Ser Rodrik is training for the Winterfell guards. The trainees are very young with the oldest one being in his twenties, as Bran observes them he comments to Maester Luwin that they aren’t very good. As Bran and Maester Luwin are conversing, Bran tells the Maester of the dream he had the night before, the three-eyed crow had taken him down to the Winterfell crypts where Bran saw and spoke to his father. The dream had been deeply disturbing to Bran.

Maester Luwin tries to dismiss this as merely a dream but Bran will not be dissuaded that something isn’t right. He wants to go down tot he crypts to check for himself but Hodor refuses to take him down there. Maester Luwin gets Osha to take Bran down to the crypts, Sommer accompanies them but is afraid to leave the steps below. As Osha walks Bran towards his father plot he tells Oasha about the Kings go Winter that they pass along the way.

Finally, they reached Lord Eddard’s plot and find Rickon there, he also dreamt with his father. Bran convinces them to go up to the Maester’s study to wait for any news. As they are waiting the Maester talks to them about the Children of the Forrest and the history of Westeros. Then, a raven arrives with a message, Bran and Rickon start to cry knowing already what it is, the Maester confirms this when he reads the message and says they must find a stoncerver who new Lord Starks likeness.

OBSERVATIONS

• With Ned taking the best men with him down south and then Robb taking the rest to war, Winterfell has been left depleted of trained fighting men.
  
• We get the first reference to the comet in this chapter. We will see the comet reference more prominently in Daenerys’ last chapter.
  
• There is a small clue regard gin R+L=J - when Bran tells us that his father (whom he spoke to in his dream) was sad with something to do about Jon.
  
• Maester Luwin has a stash of dragonglass, perhaps there is more of it in Winterfell and the surrounding areas.
  
• The three-eyed crow continues to contact Bran through his dreams.
  

A Child’s Dream

As Bran is observing the new recruited practicing in the fighting yard he thinks to himself and says:

“Bran stared resentfully at the sweating boys below. “If I still had my legs, I could beat them all.” He remembered the last time he’d held a sword in his hand, when the king had come to Winterfell. It was only a wooden sword, yet he’d knocked Prince Tommen down half a hundred times. “Ser Rodrik should teach me to use a poleaxe. If I had a poleaxe with a big long haft, Hodor could be my legs. We could be a knight together.”

Maester Luwin reminds Bran that he must put these dreams away because they’ll only lead to heartbreak. It’s difficult for Bran to completely let go of what he once had hoped for. Although he recognizes that he has been crippled he is still a child and still dreams as a child.

He thinks to himself that he can still be a warrior by using Hodor as his legs, this of course is a childish dream (later we will see him warg Hodor but that’s a different thing), it’s the type of illusion a child would come up with. He tells Maester Luwin about

“Symeon Star-Eyes” a blind knight who fought with a long staff. The Maester reminds him that is just another of Old Nan’s tales.

GRRM continues to address how Bran is still coming to terms with his paralyzes. Although, Bran does recognize that he has been crippled, he still holds out hope that he can somehow, in a different way achieve his dreams of being a knight. However, as he is still a child, he thinks of being a fighter in these impossibly imaginative ways. This reminds me of Corinthians 13:11 (KJV):

“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”

Bran is still a child and he’s processing his lost as a child does. Although, it’s important that he comes to terms with his new reality, one has to understand that he will cop with it the only way he knows how.

As we continue to follow Bran’s story he will learn that there are other ways to be a fighter and that he must use his other abilities to achieve his dreams.

A Child’s Nightmare

Talk of Bran’s dream of still being able to fight as a knight leads to the actual dream Bran had the night before in which the three-eyed crow took him into the crypts of Witnerfell where Bran saw and spoke his father.

This is a deeply disturbing dream for Bran as he understand the repercussions of what the dream might be. Although we can attribute Bran's ability to be able to see his father's spirit to his greenseeing abilities, we also must consider that Rickon was also able to see his father.

Maester Luwin tries to explain this away, the fact that both children had the same dream, and is not quite able to give it a “scientific” explanation. Although science can explain many thing in this world, there are still others that are beyond the prevue of the Maester scientific knowledge.

As we discussed a few chapters back we have the juxtaposition of the analytical explanation of events through Maester Luwin on one side and Osha on the other attributing that which cannot be explained to magic. However, there must be more to the magic answer than just “because magic”. Here is where someone like a Maester Marwyn comes into play, when it comes to understanding what causes these magical things/events to take place. Basically using the scientific method in the matters of magic.

Perhaps through the information we gain from Bran’s POV and Maester Marwyn we will be able to understand how and what the magical aspects of the Planetos function and why is it that it behaves in a certain way.

The Kings Of Winter

"Do you recall your history, Bran? the maester said as they walked. Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can. He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor . His son was Rickard Stark, not my fathers father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter.

Theon Starks the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the Hungry Wolf, because he was always at war. Thats a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his fathers ships in grief. Theres Rodrik Stark , who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts.

And thats Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt . He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there , hes Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said hed never faced a finer swordsman. They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him . And theres my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys.

His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my fathers brother. Theyre not supposed to have statues, thats only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

This brief history lessons gives us an interesting insight into the Starks of old. Unlike the quiet, honorable Ned Stark the old kings where fighters, explorers, hard and cold. They aggressively expanded their territories. They loved war, they were ruthless in their endeavors which is at testament to the fact that they have been the rulers in the North for thousands of years.

As Bran is going through each king, Torrhen "The King Who Knelt"becomes a sort of an outlier amongst the bunch. While most of the others made war Torrhen chose to end one. It's strange because his actions seem very wise, he probably understood that he wasn't going to be able to win against a dragon of Baleruon's size and chose to save his men from a fruitless endeavor, yet this decision is looked at as week, someone who gave up. It's the world that they live in that those who do war are sometimes more admired then those who do peace.

Finally, we come to the tombs of Ned's father, brother and sister. Although a statue for his father was the norm, Ned decided to have one made for his brother and sister. The very traditional Ned did something very untraditional.

The Children of the Forrest

As the children, Osha, the wolves and Maester lupin wait any new, Bran asks the Maester to tell him about the Children of the Forrest. Maester Luwin begins to recall:

“They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares.”

First a random observation. The Children are described as quick and graceful, when Bran is describing Jon Snow he also describes him as quick and graceful:

“Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.”

I also highlighted the part where is says that the Children fought male and female side by side, because it is very much like the Wilding culture. They have kept this equality of sorts as part of their culture. The First Men perhaps learned this from the Children.

We also here the term greeseer for the first time:

“Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods.”

Not only are they they wise men but they are also associated with the faces in the weirwood trees.

As Maester Luwin continues his story we learn many historical facts from how Westeros was founded. From the war between the First Men and the Children, to the peach pact at the Isle of Faces. As Maester Luwin continues he mentions:

“Oh, very well,” Luwin muttered. “So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later , when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.”

Those who battled during the Long Night were the Children and the First Men as the Andals had not yet invaded Westeros.

As I was reading this I thought that it was interesting that even with the magic the Children possessed they were still not able to defeat either the First Men or the Andals. In GRRM’s world magic isn’t an all powerful tool. There are limitation to what one can accomplish with magic and I think this is very important to the future series. Not only is magic a double edge sword without a hilt, it also has its limitations.

Conclusion

As the chapter concludes news of Lord Eddards death reached Maester Luwin and Bran realizes that what he had seen had indeed been true, even as he was wishing it where not. Sometimes it’s hard to know everything, yet another limitation of having magical abilities. This is a short chapter but it is a good culmination to Bran’s AGOT arc. He is still battling through his acceptance of his new status and learning about his new abilities. The chapter begins with his lamenting of his lack of physical abilities and it end with his lamenting of his magical abilities.

[BearQueen87]

AGOT - Bran VII

“In the dream I flew down with the crow, but I can’t do that when I’m awake”

Excellently done, MoIaF!

We get the first reference to the comet in this chapter. We will see the comet reference more prominently in Daenerys’ last chapter.

I don't know that I've ever noticed the comet in Bran's chapter before. Does anyone know, chronologically, is this then after Dany and the pyre--even though, obviously, Dany's last chapter is the final chapter in AGOT?

There is a small clue regard gin R+L=J - when Bran tells us that his father (whom he spoke to in his dream) was sad with something to do about Jon.

Yes, and since I spend most of my time on this forum over in RLJ, on behalf of all my friends over there: TELL US WHAT WAS IN THIS DREAM, BRAN (GRRM!!!!) JUST TELL US!!

Maester Luwin has a stash of dragonglass, perhaps there is more of it in Winterfell and the surrounding areas.

I think it's really interesting that there is dragonglass and that it perhaps came from Winterfell. Luwin tells us that it is forged deep below the surface of the earth in fire and we know from Cat II that Winterfell sits on top of a hot spring. I won't lie: it makes me wonder what else is below the earth of WF.

If the dragonglass did not come from Winterfell itself, then my guess is that it came from the Children of the Forest, long ago when they traded with the first men. And I think this is a big clue that Brandon Stark (of way long ago) is the Last Hero.

He tells Maester Luwin about

“Symeon Star-Eyes” a blind knight who fought with a long staff. The Maester reminds him that is just another of Old Nan’s tales.

Raise your hand if you think Symeon Star-Eyes was more than just "one of Old Nan's tales."

You know what is interesting, you have this knight who is from the Age of Heroes (aka: a long time before Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters came to Westeros with their dragons) killing a dragon. So...why are there no more dragons in Westeros? And why don't we hear more about them?

Also, the description of Syemon makes me think that there is a lot more to him than just "hero who did cool things." He has bright blue *sapphire* eyes. Anyone else in this series we know who doesn't really like fire, light, warmth, and has bright blue eyes?

*looks up north* Oh, hey there Others.

This is a deeply disturbing dream for Bran as he understand the repercussions of what the dream might be. Although we can attribute Bran's ability to be able to see his father's spirit to his greenseeing abilities, we also must consider that Rickon was also able to see his father.

Interesting that Rickon never mentions a crow. I think Rickon "tapped" into Bran's dream but only saw parts of it--the parts with Ned and the crypt. The crow only comes to Bran.

This brief history lessons gives us an interesting insight into the Starks of old. Unlike the quiet, honorable Ned Stark the old kings where fighters, explorers, hard and cold. They aggressively expanded their territories. They loved war, they were ruthless in their endeavors which is at testament to the fact that they have been the rulers in the North for thousands of years.

Yeah, for anyone who read the World Book...Theon Stark basically loved every single second of war and bloodshed and was quite good at it. He was very Un-Ned.

Finally, we come to the tombs of Ned's father, brother and sister. Although a statue for his father was the norm, Ned decided to have one made for his brother and sister. The very traditional Ned did something very untraditional.

Sentimental Ned Stark. (I miss him)

Also, there is a very logical reason for why Brandon was given a statue. We don't know who died first Rickard or Brandon, but if Rickard died first (burning) then for however short a time, Brandon was Lord of Winterfell.

Now...Lyanna is a totally different story. And the reason for her statue from Ned is far more, shall we say, controversial.

Because she married a prince and was his Queen.

The Children of the Forrest

Very nicely done. I am going to point out one thing: another interrupted story. We talked about this a bit back in Bran IV when Old Nan's story in cut off, but this is done almost the exact same way. The story you really need to hear (about the Last Hero, about the CotF, about the Others) is cut off by GRRM-as-Author-and-Universe-God because you can't hear it yet. GRRM can't let us know exactly what is going on yet, so the scene is truncated. Because the stories are cut off so similarly, I think they are tied together. The LH goes north to find the CotF and ends up in a world of danger, the CotF also fled north and.....to be continued.

There is a lot of history and bloodshed between CotF and the First Men (which the LH most certainly was) and it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

As I was reading this I thought that it was interesting that even with the magic the Children possessed they were still not able to defeat either the First Men or the Andals. In GRRM’s world magic isn’t an all powerful tool. There are limitation to what one can accomplish with magic and I think this is very important to the future series. Not only is magic a double edge sword without a hilt, it also has its limitations.

And that is even more odd if you believe, as is said in this chapter, that the CotF caused the Hammer on the Waters that is Moat Cailin AND Broke the Arm of Dorne. So they are strong enough to cause these huge disasters but can't drive off men?

Odd, no?

This is a short chapter but it is a good culmination to Bran’s AGOT arc.

I think this is an nice full circle for Bran's POV chapters. Bran I starts off with Bran and Ned riding out to do Lord's business and it ends with the torch pretty much literally being passed to Bran. Osha even comments in this final chapter that Bran is the little lord of WF while Robb and Ned are away. The first POV opens with Bran as a carefree child who fears nothing; and ends with Bran, now crippled, fearing the world around him since no place, not even WF is really safe anymore.

Misc Notes

1. Rickon is quite the scary little child

2.Osha says that "Winter's got no king" but does that mean that Osha and the Wildlings have never heard of the Night's King and how he married/had sex with an Other lady? Is that story just a Westerosi story?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thank you for the great analysis MOIAF! :)

A Child’s Nightmare

Talk of Bran’s dream of still being able to fight as a knight leads to the actual dream Bran had the night before in which the three-eyed crow took him into the crypts of Witnerfell where Bran saw and spoke his father.

This is a deeply disturbing dream for Bran as he understand the repercussions of what the dream might be. Although we can attribute Bran's ability to be able to see his father's spirit to his greenseeing abilities, we also must consider that Rickon was also able to see his father.

Maester Luwin tries to explain this away, the fact that both children had the same dream, and is not quite able to give it a “scientific” explanation. Although science can explain many thing in this world, there are still others that are beyond the prevue of the Maester scientific knowledge.

As we discussed a few chapters back we have the juxtaposition of the analytical explanation of events through Maester Luwin on one side and Osha on the other attributing that which cannot be explained to magic. However, there must be more to the magic answer than just “because magic”. Here is where someone like a Maester Marwyn comes into play, when it comes to understanding what causes these magical things/events to take place. Basically using the scientific method in the matters of magic.

Perhaps through the information we gain from Bran’s POV and Maester Marwyn we will be able to understand how and what the magical aspects of the Planetos function and why is it that it behaves in a certain way.

I also liked the way GRRM presented it was also interesting, it's almost like M.Luwin and Osha are having a debate and Bran is in the neutral POV accepting everything objectively.

The Children of the Forrest

As the children, Osha, the wolves and Maester lupin wait any new, Bran asks the Maester to tell him about the Children of the Forrest. Maester Luwin begins to recall:

“They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares.”

First a random observation. The Children are described as quick and graceful, when Bran is describing Jon Snow he also describes him as quick and graceful:

“Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.”

I also highlighted the part where is says that the Children fought male and female side by side, because it is very much like the Wilding culture. They have kept this equality of sorts as part of their culture. The First Men perhaps learned this from the Children.

We also here the term greeseer for the first time:

“Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods.”

Not only are they they wise men but they are also associated with the faces in the weirwood trees.

As Maester Luwin continues his story we learn many historical facts from how Westeros was founded. From the war between the First Men and the Children, to the peach pact at the Isle of Faces. As Maester Luwin continues he mentions:

“Oh, very well,” Luwin muttered. “So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later , when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.”

Those who battled during the Long Night were the Children and the First Men as the Andals had not yet invaded Westeros.

As I was reading this I thought that it was interesting that even with the magic the Children possessed they were still not able to defeat either the First Men or the Andals. In GRRM’s world magic isn’t an all powerful tool. There are limitation to what one can accomplish with magic and I think this is very important to the future series. Not only is magic a double edge sword without a hilt, it also has its limitations.

On the topic of the CotF, I also found it interesting that they have a complex society of different factions just like men and aren't completely one group. M.Luwin mentions two types, the greenseers and the wood dancers. We also have confirmation of different factions in TWOIAF.

SOme other parts of the chapter I found interesting:

Hodor is Human

We read maester Luwain say

“Go down into the crypts. When I woke, I told him to take me down, to see if Father was truly there. At first he didn’t know what I was saying, but I got him to the steps by telling him to go here and go there, only then he wouldn’t go down. He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,’ like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch. It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing.” He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, “I didn’t, though.” “Good. Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten.”

M.Luwin reminds Bran that Hodor is human and I really do hope Bran remebers that in the future, as this is a re-read we will later find out that he starts to warg Hodor like an animal. So perhaps we might need to take not of M.Luwin's words for future references.

The Pact

M. Luwin mentions that the Pact began a four thousand year of friendship between the children and men but according to TWOIAF, this isn't fully accurate as there is evidence for the Starks having wars with the CotFafter the pact.

I think there could be many reasons for this such as the CotF having different factions, which I mentioned above, and possibly the ones that fought the Starks may have been against the pact or didn't even take part in it, it could also work both ways and perhaps the Starks may have been among human factions against the pact.

Very nicely done. I am going to point out one thing: another interrupted story. We talked about this a bit back in Bran IV when Old Nan's story in cut off, but this is done almost the exact same way. The story you really need to hear (about the Last Hero, about the CotF, about the Others) is cut off by GRRM-as-Author-and-Universe-God because you can't hear it yet. GRRM can't let us know exactly what is going on yet, so the scene is truncated. Because the stories are cut off so similarly, I think they are tied together. The LH goes north to find the CotF and ends up in a world of danger, the CotF also fled north and.....to be continued.

There is a lot of history and bloodshed between CotF and the First Men (which the LH most certainly was) and it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

@Bearqueen

I agree, there must be some overlap between both stories, though I'm not sure what the missing link is. As you stated in Old Nan's story the LH flees from the slaughter of the OThers and in M.Luwins story the CotF flee from the slaughter of the Andals.

We also have cases in TWOIAF where the FM kings had to search for help from the CotF when the Andals came. So we have different version of histories and the truth might be a fine line among them all.

[BearQueen87]

Thank you for the great analysis MOIAF! :)

I also liked the way GRRM presented it was also interesting, it's almost like M.Luwin and Osha are having a debate and Bran is in the neutral POV accepting everything objectively.

Bran is pretty much a sponge--trying to absorb all he can before he makes decisions either way.

On the topic of the CotF, I also found it interesting that they have a complex society of different factions just like men and aren't completely one group. M.Luwin mentions two types, the greenseers and the wood dancers. We also have confirmation of different factions in TWOIAF.

The Pact

M. Luwin mentions that the Pact began a four thousand year of friendship between the children and men but according to TWOIAF, this isn't fully accurate as there is evidence for the Starks having wars with the CotFafter the pact.

I think there could be many reasons for this such as the CotF having different factions, which I mentioned above, and possibly the ones that fought the Starks may have been against the pact or didn't even take part in it, it could also work both ways and perhaps the Starks may have been among human factions against the pact.

@Bearqueen

I agree, there must be some overlap between both stories, though I'm not sure what the missing link is. As you stated in Old Nan's story the LH flees from the slaughter of the OThers and in M.Luwins story the CotF flee from the slaughter of the Andals.

We also have cases in TWOIAF where the FM kings had to search for help from the CotF when the Andals came. So we have different version of histories and the truth might be a fine line among them all.

Right, it's like there are kernels of truth in all this history that keeps getting twisted, but I can't quite figure out what. I think the "truth" (if, frankly, we can even talk about historical truth in something as way far back at the Pact and the FM coming to Westeros) might be in what is going on with Bran when we leave him in ADWD. That might ring more true to the historical reality of the first Starks and their relationship with the CotF.

And, as I am a suspicious person, I find the CotF to be a little less than on the level.

[MoIaF]

Excellently done, MoIaF!

Gracias!

I don't know that I've ever noticed the comet in Bran's chapter before. Does anyone know, chronologically, is this then after Dany and the pyre--even though, obviously, Dany's last chapter is the final chapter in AGOT?

In the ASOIAF timeline below it does say that Dany saw the comet first, the night before. I always forget that Dany's story is a little ahead of everyone else. Although, I think everyone catches up by Clash.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

I think it's really interesting that there is dragonglass and that it perhaps came from Winterfell. Luwin tells us that it is forged deep below the surface of the earth in fire and we know from Cat II that Winterfell sits on top of a hot spring. I won't lie: it makes me wonder what else is below the earth of WF.

If the dragonglass did not come from Winterfell itself, then my guess is that it came from the Children of the Forest, long ago when they traded with the first men. And I think this is a big clue that Brandon Stark (of way long ago) is the Last Hero.

There seems to be something important about the hot springs below Winterfell/, pethaps it is hot enough below to forge the dragonglass.

Raise your hand if you think Symeon Star-Eyes was more than just "one of Old Nan's tales."

You know what is interesting, you have this knight who is from the Age of Heroes (aka: a long time before Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters came to Westeros with their dragons) killing a dragon. So...why are there no more dragons in Westeros? And why don't we hear more about them?

Also, the description of Syemon makes me think that there is a lot more to him than just "hero who did cool things." He has bright blue *sapphire* eyes. Anyone else in this series we know who doesn't really like fire, light, warmth, and has bright blue eyes?

*looks up north* Oh, hey there Others.

Old Nan knows her stuff backwards and forwards.

In all seriousness, the reference to the Other's is interesting. Although there is another soon to be legendary knight whose eyes have been described as the color of sapphire...

And that is even more odd if you believe, as is said in this chapter, that the CotF caused the Hammer on the Waters that is Moat Cailin AND Broke the Arm of Dorne. So they are strong enough to cause these huge disasters but can't drive off men?

Odd, no?

That' the weird part that, yes, GRRM is very explicit about magic not being a way to solve all your problems. Yet, he has the Children display these extraordinary magical feats and yet they cannot push the First Men back? There might be more to this story or GRRM might not have thought it through.

Misc Notes

1. Rickon is quite the scary little child

2.Osha says that "Winter's got no king" but does that mean that Osha and the Wildlings have never heard of the Night's King and how he married/had sex with an Other lady? Is that story just a Westerosi story?

1. He is scary, very much like the Starks of old, don't you think?

2. Well, the Wildings are a weird butch. They are for the most part a bunch of know-it-alls who yeah know some stuff but don't know about a lot of other stuff, stuff that is also important. As you can see I'm not a fan of the Wildings know-it-all attitude, I find it highly annoying.

[MoIaF]

Thank you for the great analysis MOIAF! :)

Thank you and you are very welcome! :D

Hodor is Human

We read maester Luwain say

“Go down into the crypts. When I woke, I told him to take me down, to see if Father was truly there. At first he didn’t know what I was saying, but I got him to the steps by telling him to go here and go there, only then he wouldn’t go down. He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,’ like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch. It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing.” He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, “I didn’t, though.” “Good. Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten.”

M.Luwin reminds Bran that Hodor is human and I really do hope Bran remebers that in the future, as this is a re-read we will later find out that he starts to warg Hodor like an animal. So perhaps we might need to take not of M.Luwin's words for future references.

Good catch!

This is one of those instances where I really worry for Bran. His use of Hodor is in truth an abomination. To do that to another human being is horrific and I hope that Bran remembers Maester Luwin's words. He isn't an animal, his a person, simple minded as he may be.

The Pact

M. Luwin mentions that the Pact began a four thousand year of friendship between the children and men but according to TWOIAF, this isn't fully accurate as there is evidence for the Starks having wars with the CotFafter the pact.

I think there could be many reasons for this such as the CotF having different factions, which I mentioned above, and possibly the ones that fought the Starks may have been against the pact or didn't even take part in it, it could also work both ways and perhaps the Starks may have been among human factions against the pact.

It's interesting because it shows that the Children aren't just some homogenous group that do the same things. As you mentioned there are different factions, different beliefs. I'm sure that many of them did not want to concede to the First Men so much land.

Perhaps, the did in fact have the magical ability to destroy the First Men and chose not to use it because they didn't want to apply a mutually assured distraction policy. If they destroyed the land in order to get rid of men, they would be harming themselves as well.