Jaak Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Not only did Valyrians adopt slavery from Ghiscari: it was not something that only happened to others/foreign captives. A freeborn Valyrian freeholder was not safe from becoming a slave: the fleet that mutinied to found Braavos included Valyrians, and not even only criminals, but also debtors. When a dragonlord or -lady went bankrupt, would he or she be sold together with his/her dragon, or separately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Not all Valyrians were dragonlords, if a dragonlord was in a debt he/she could not pay obviously they would sell the dragon rather than themselves. Tho having a dragon and a debt you cannot pay is not something that is logical either as there are plenty of wars you could lend yourself to, in order to get the money you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Tho having a dragon and a debt you cannot pay is not something that is logical either as there are plenty of wars you could lend yourself to, in order to get the money you need.Not all Valyrian wars were victorious, and not all they did "win" were profitable. The Freehold of Valyria thrice established colonies on Basilisk Point: the first was destroyed by the Brindled Men, the second lost to plague, and the third was abandoned when the dragonlords captured Zamettar in the Fourth Ghiscari War. A dragonlord might well have borrowed money to hire or buy armies and fleets for some war... and return with paltry loot and armies lost to enemy action, storms and sicknesses. And face a debt more than his dragon was worth. So: dragonlords were rich, but this meant they (like kings) might borrow a lot. How would Valyrian freehold treat a dragonlord who had borrowed and lost more than his landholdings and dragon were worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Not only did Valyrians adopt slavery from Ghiscari: it was not something that only happened to others/foreign captives. A freeborn Valyrian freeholder was not safe from becoming a slave: the fleet that mutinied to found Braavos included Valyrians, and not even only criminals, but also debtors. When a dragonlord or -lady went bankrupt, would he or she be sold together with his/her dragon, or separately? Heh...if you try to capture and sell into slavery either a dragonlord or his/her dragon mount, what you get is a furious dragon spitting fire everywhere. If a dragonlord were defeated in battle and his/her dragon killed, put in chains and held captive he or she could be sold into slavery (which I doubt, if the dragonlord blood really is tied to control of dragons; defeated dragonlord would be held captive forever or would be killed, not sold), but I can't imagine a dragonlord being sold under any other circunstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Debt slavery is nothing unusual really. Many societies have practiced it. Usually a debt slave have been separate class of slaves from the other slaves though (i.e. they usually have a higher rank in the household). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creticus Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I expect that a dragon rider who accumulated that much debt would either head into exile or commit suicide to expiate the shame. I suspect that the Valyrian dragon riders would view selling one of their number into slavery in much the same manner as the senatorial families of Republican Rome, which is to say, really, really not well. Killing a political rival is one thing, but selling a probable relative is probably beyond the pale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 A debt more than a dragon is worth is essentially unimaginable to me, and that is before we consider that dragonlords are from 40 dragon riding families that had over 300 dragons total, so most if not all families would have more than 1, and certainly other things such as VS and dragon eggs. A Dragonlord being sold into slavery go's against any image the other dragonlords would want the outside world to see imo. Its like how rival kings often supported each other in the face of peasant revolts because they didn't want such things to happen in their own kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Debt slavery is nothing unusual really. Many societies have practiced it. Usually a debt slave have been separate class of slaves from the other slaves though (i.e. they usually have a higher rank in the household). Yeah, but, do you think king Robert, for example, would allow the Iron Bank of Braavos to auction him as a debt slave? Powerful people don't become debt slaves. If you want to sell a dragonlord as a slave, you would have to raise an army, borrow some dragons of your own, attack his stronghold and kill his dragons before you get your hands on him/her...would the price you would get out of selling him/her really justify all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Also can a dragonlord even sell his or her mount voluntarily, or give it away as a gift inter vivos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waters Gate Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 If Valyria had 300 dragons at it's height, it also only had 300 dragonriders, who came with the dragon, in a vast empire with millions of people presumably. With other words, they were at the very least the elite warriors of the empire, and even when of low rank (like say a hedge knight is a noble of very low rank) a dragonrider should atleast be worth quite a bit as a mercenary. He would not have to pay the cost of the armies himself as a mercenary, just fight along, or fly away when things go horribly wrong. :D And youre well placed to get youre hands, or maybe paws, on the main loot first. Even regardless of war, dragons have quite some economical potential aswell, although they would be even more vastly usefull when valyrians had steam engine's, even crude one's like that ball with it's 2 vents. Youre dragon might be quite usefull in such industry's as metalworks, construction or providing heat to housing. Guess youre dragon will also save you on the energy bill hah. In a society build upon dragons and everything around it though, i can only think of those 300 dragonriders as the elite caste of society to which all eyes gaze. And be that even a caste of warriors, enamoured in all things regarding the warrior like say chivalry. I could envision that in cases of brutal fueds that maybe one could end in slavery, though likely when his dragon got snuffed, but otherwise i would think that even in defeat theywould be regarded as too "royal" too hurt too much. Remember that many people regarded valyrians as gods, the more so the dragon riders i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Westeros, with never more than a dozen dragonriders at any time over a century and a half, had certain dragonriders who sound a bit like criminals. Daemon was a rogue, threatened with attainder for stealing an egg for Misery (he returned the egg), then with death for deflowering Rhaenyra (commuted to exile) then with death for returning from exile (not carried out when he did show up). Maegor and Aemond played politics but sound pretty rogueish as well. Corlys urged Rhaenyra to send Greens to the Wall. Brethren of the wall are not slaves, as Eddard might protest... but involuntary service for life sounds pretty similar. If Aegon was sent to Wall by Rhaenyra, would Sunfyre have followed him in service of the Watch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waters Gate Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 If Aegon was sent to Wall by Rhaenyra, would Sunfyre have followed him in service of the Watch? The wall sure could use some women i think. Hmm well also sounds like Rhaenyra could use her dragon there. Would sure also cut down on the heating bill of castle black, just don't point that thing at the wall. The wall is going to be in a tiny bit more of a pickle when Rhaenyra decides to kick the bucket and leave her dragon behind at the wall. Fun times will come im sure. Although maybe sunfyre can mate with an ice dragon and create some uber ice and fire dragon that obviously will be the stuff of saving the world then. ;) I don't think Rhaenyra would hae kept her dragon. In the dragonpit with it, or off to dragonstone, maybe some day some other Targaryan youngling of more "cough" loyal blood might come to ride it. That is what i would do as Aegon II, besides trying to clean myself often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vulture King Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Also can a dragonlord even sell his or her mount voluntarily, or give it away as a gift inter vivos? I think the fact we have no evidence of some one ever giving a dragon away if strong proof that you need "dragon blood" to ride one. We know people do crazy thing for love and to think no one ever gave a love a dragon after 5000 years really makes the blood thing all the much stronger. Also we know Valyria had way over 300 dragons at some point (300 came to fight in one battle, you don't send every dragon you have to stop one war) and for not one of these dragons to fall into enemy hands is the strongest clue that only dragon lords and ride dragons. Also a dragon lord ever becoming a slave is almost laughable. His blood alone would be worth so much to his family/free hold that he would also be taken care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 I think the fact we have no evidence of some one ever giving a dragon away if strong proof that you need "dragon blood" to ride one. We know people do crazy thing for love and to think no one ever gave a love a dragon after 5000 years really makes the blood thing all the much stronger. House Targaryen did most of time have surplus people of dragon blood for whom dragons were not available. Aenys had 5 surviving children, but only 3 of them had their own dragons (Rhaena´s Dreamfyre, Jaehaerys´ Vermithor and Alysanne´s Silverwing) - Aegon rode the used Quicksilver, and Viserys is not recorded to have had any dragon. Jaehaerys had 3 sons and 6 daughters survive infancy, but none of them is recorded as the former and first owner of any dragon in Dance. Archmaester Vaemond was expressly Dragonless. People of dragon blood could tame dragons of deceased riders. But was it ever possible for a living dragonrider to give a dragon away? Mad Helaena refused and was in no condition to ride Dreamfyre. Whereas Vhagar was successfully tamed soon after Laena had died. Would it have been necessary to kill Helaena in order that Dreamfyre might accept a new rider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 I think the fact we have no evidence of some one ever giving a dragon away if strong proof that you need "dragon blood" to ride one. We know people do crazy thing for love and to think no one ever gave a love a dragon after 5000 years really makes the blood thing all the much stronger. Peope commonly do love their children and grandchildren - but these do share their blood. Actually riding a dragon requires a certain level of physical fitness. Rhaenyra could not ride late in pregnancy, and expected to be unable to ride for a prolonged time after giving birth. Eventually she did recover. Laena also could not ride for some time after giving birth. And then there are elders, like the prolonged illnesses of Jaehaerys and of Viserys. If an elderly and physically unfit dragonlord attempted to teach his or her dragon to accept a beloved child or grandchild as the new rider in the lifetime of the old dragonlord, would the dragon go along, or refuse to obey? Has any dragonlord ever tried it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I doubt that anyone ever dared to try to enslave a dragonlord. At least not one who still was part of a family of dragonlords, and certainly only other dragonlords would have tried to enslave such a person. The idea that a dragon could be sold makes also no sense. Nothing suggests that any living dragonrider could give away his dragon. If so, then Joff could have ridden Syrax. The fact that he could not is a strong sign that a rider has to die before a dragon can be claimed by another rider. If Aegon II or his brothers had gone to the Wall, Rhaenyra would either have killed their dragons, or kept them chained in the Dragonpit until their riders died. She neutralized Dreamfyre the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Not only did Valyrians adopt slavery from Ghiscari: ... I am not so sure about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Nothing suggests that any living dragonrider could give away his dragon. If so, then Joff could have ridden Syrax. The fact that he could not is a strong sign that a rider has to die before a dragon can be claimed by another rider. Joff rode Syrax. But the fool didnot use whip or saddle. That is why he fell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I don't think that's the only explanation. Aegon the Younger also simply grabbed Stormcloud when he fled from the ship when the Triarchy caught them, and clutched to him without a saddle or a whip, and his dragon did not threw him off. Syrax actively threw off Joffrey, and Rhaenyra obviously saw that coming. She would not have foreseen it, if she did not have known that this was most likely going to happen because dragons who had dragonriders did not accept other riders. Now, if this was not the case, then any Targaryen dragonrider could have ridden some other dragon, and there would have been no (or less) need to find additional dragonriders, as Rhaenyra or Jace could have swapped Syrax and Vermax for the bigger dragons Vermithor and Silverwing, and Joffrey could later have abandoned Tyraxes in favor of Dreamfyre. Maegor and Aenys could have ridden Balerion before their father's death, and Vhagar would have been the mount of both Visenya and Maegor until Visenya's death. But this is obviously not the case. We know from ADwD that Balerion, Vhagar, and Meraxes were only ridden by Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Gyldayn didnot have an eye witness. Then, how could he claim that Syrax actively tried to dump Joff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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