Heresy 140 [World of Ice & Fire Spoilers]

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 140 the latest edition of the thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

This thread series is called Heresy because right at the beginning it challenged the conventional assumption that the story is all about defeating the Others and that it is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as Azor Ahai and using Dany’s Amazing Dragons to destroy them. Indeed Heresy questions whether the Others are really the threat they appear, or perhaps more accurately whether they are indeed an icy version of a Dothraki horde, or whether on the one hand that particular threat is at once more complicated and much closer to home, while on the other hand the dragons far from being the saviours of mankind may turn out to be the real threat.

This particular thread opens amidst the revelations of the World of Ice and Fire. A one month embargo is still in place until 28 November [Heresy’s third birthday] requiring the use of the Spoilers warning in the title, so if you haven’t yet indulged in a copy and would rather not know just yet – look way now.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might at first appear confusing. Normally we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. We are in other words engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics discussed here, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

If new to Heresy you may want to start off with this link to Heresy 100: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/ where you will find a series of essays specially commissioned to celebrate our century by looking closely at some of the major issues. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

Oh, and don’t forget Snowfyre’s health warning:

WARNING: Mental exercise is essential for a healthy life. But if you do not already exercise your mind, you should seek the advice of your doctor prior to beginning this or any other mental activity. Not all thought exercises are suitable for everyone, and any use of your imagination may result in injury to preconceived worldviews. Consult with your doctor before embarking on theories with The Snowfyre Chorus or other self-acknowledged Heretics. If you experience pain or discomfort during consideration of any theory, stop immediately and consult your doctor. The creators, producers, participants and distributors of Heresy-related theories cannot guarantee that component ideas are proper for every individual, or "safe" for his or her preconceived narrative expectations.

[alienarea]

Maybe we can collect what we know about Mance Rayder from the books so far?

[Melifeather]

I have a pretty extensive document already started on Mance, but it's geared towards evidence that he's Jon's father. What exactly do you want to know about Mance? He's a big subject, so maybe you should narrow your focus?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Maybe we can collect what we know about Mance Rayder from the books so far?

1. Middling height.

[Melifeather]

1. Middling height.

:lol:

No, seriously. I think he means references to the grave openings.....you are a funny guy tho....

[Black Crow]

So here we are after just over a week into the World of Ice and Fire and certainly lots of goodies including a lot of background on Rhaegar’s apparent preparations for a coup, cut short by an unfortunate meeting with the Hammer of the Waters in the middle of the Trident. It’s probably going to take a lot more analysis and thinking about, but it does strike me that the abduction of Lyanna was at least politically motivated rather than down to infatuation and musty prophecy.

As to matters more heretical, on one level it’s been a bit disappointing; not that our core theories have been disproved [quite the reverse] but rather that a lot of detail which ought to be there isn’t.

As I understand the mechanics, our hosts assembled the initial draft as a consolidation of the information already contained in the books, while GRRM added a lot of other material to flesh it out and bridge a few gaps both in the main text of the World Book and in adding the many sidebars – including the one postulating a human origin for the white walkers – but yet some significant gaps remain and this is particularly apparent in the chapter on the Nights Watch.

We’re earlier told that the Last Hero sought out the children and with their aid he led the Nights Watch to victory in the Battle for the Dawn and thus sent the Others howling back whence they came.

A notable event indeed, if it happened that way, but as we’ve discussed before the Nights Watch themselves seem curiously reticent. No-one seemingly knows where or when the battle was fought and how it was won, or indeed how and when the Watch was formed.

It is said that the children gave to the last hero a blade made of something they called dragonglass or dragonsteel, somewhat like the obsidian daggers they themselves used, and armed with this blade the walkers could not stand against him. And so he gathered a new band of heroes around him, replacing those who were lost, and with obsidian daggers and obsidian arrows they smote the walkers mightily while other men joining them burned the wights with flaming arrows and with burning torches until with the coming of the light the legions of Hell broke and fled.

No its not in the World book but I think it’s a reasonable rendering of what might be termed the popular view of what happened; yet we’re not given that story or any other story. We’re not told where Stannis got that business of “demons of snow and ice and cold”. Why not? A simple but innocuous paragraph like that wouldn’t frighten the horses with new and radical ideas, but it’s not there. Like Sam we’re none the wiser. In all his searches of the archives [albeit curtailed] he’s scratching about trying to find the information Jon wants about how to deal with them and all he can come up with is nothing of any substance and most notably not even a basic account of the Battle for the Dawn.

Its very very hard to avoid the impression that this is just one more thing deliberately omitted because it would be a spoiler.

[Black Crow]

:lol:

No, seriously. I think he means references to the grave openings.....you are a funny guy tho....

Its even thinner than the World Book's article on the Nights Watch. Qhorin and the boys head up into the Frostfangs because there's word that Mance is gathering all the Wildlings together somewhere up the Milkwater. So off they go and eventually Ygritte comes out with the line about digging in the graves to find the horn, letting all those shades loose, but not finding the horn - and that's it. Its one reference.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

1. Middling height.

2. Enjoys music.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Its even thinner than the World Book's article on the Nights Watch. Qhorin and the boys head up into the Frostfangs because there's word that Mance is gathering all the Wildlings together somewhere up the Milkwater. So off they go and eventually Ygritte comes out with the line about digging in the graves to find the horn, letting all those shades loose, but not finding the horn - and that's it. Its one reference.

Possibly Quaithe was the wise woman's daughter. "Go north to go south?"

[wolfmaid7]

So here we are after just over a week into the World of Ice and Fire and certainly lots of goodies including a lot of background on Rhaegar’s apparent preparations for a coup, cut short by an unfortunate meeting with the Hammer of the Waters in the middle of the Trident. It’s probably going to take a lot more analysis and thinking about, but it does strike me that the abduction of Lyanna was at least politically motivated rather than down to infatuation and musty prophecy.

As to matters more heretical, on one level it’s been a bit disappointing; not that our core theories have been disproved [quite the reverse] but rather that a lot of detail which ought to be there isn’t.

As I understand the mechanics, our hosts assembled the initial draft as a consolidation of the information already contained in the books, while GRRM added a lot of other material to flesh it out and bridge a few gaps both in the main text of the World Book and in adding the many sidebars – including the one postulating a human origin for the white walkers – but yet some significant gaps remain and this is particularly apparent in the chapter on the Nights Watch.

We’re earlier told that the Last Hero sought out the children and with their aid he led the Nights Watch to victory in the Battle for the Dawn and thus sent the Others howling back whence they came.

A notable event indeed, if it happened that way, but as we’ve discussed before the Nights Watch themselves seem curiously reticent. No-one seemingly knows where or when the battle was fought and how it was won, or indeed how and when the Watch was formed.

It is said that the children gave to the last hero a blade made of something they called dragonglass or dragonsteel, somewhat like the obsidian daggers they themselves used, and armed with this blade the walkers could not stand against him. And so he gathered a new band of heroes around him, replacing those who were lost, and with obsidian daggers and obsidian arrows they smote the walkers mightily while other men joining them burned the wights with flaming arrows and with burning torches until with the coming of the light the legions of Hell broke and fled.

No its not in the World book but I think it’s a reasonable rendering of what might be termed the popular view of what happened; yet we’re not given that story or any other story. We’re not told where Stannis got that business of “demons of snow and ice and cold”. Why not? A simple but innocuous paragraph like that wouldn’t frighten the horses with new and radical ideas, but it’s not there. Like Sam we’re none the wiser. In all his searches of the archives [albeit curtailed] he’s scratching about trying to find the information Jon wants about how to deal with them and all he can come up with is nothing of any substance and most notably not even a basic account of the Battle for the Dawn.

Its very very hard to avoid the impression that this is just one more thing deliberately omitted because it would be a spoiler.

Yeahhhh this is the thing that has always bothered me about the so called "battle for the dawn". In the most ridiculous of events that happened we get the Rat Cook,Danny Flint the 89 sentinals.But in such an epic battle we get zip,no stand outs,call outs,shout outs to anyone or any monumental preceding fight ...nothing. We get no statues or name chisled on a stone,or even a here lies so an so who took down 10 wights with just his rusty axe.The past is always the best gauge to show how plausible something is or how ridiculous something is.

The nights watch got decimated on the Fist because they couldn't withstand the temp,or slumbering around in unable to see 5 ft infront of them in the dark. We know it was way worse back then so we are expected to believe

1. The Night watch rode out from :dunno:

2. Braved conditions that were a 100 times worse

3. And drove an army that was created from there own population who outnumbered them back to the LOAW.

There is some serious gaps and probably a 'wee' bit of fudging going on.Instead of ending in some epic battle,it probably ended in a handshake with fingers crossed behind the back :devil:

Its even thinner than the World Book's article on the Nights Watch. Qhorin and the boys head up into the Frostfangs because there's word that Mance is gathering all the Wildlings together somewhere up the Milkwater. So off they go and eventually Ygritte comes out with the line about digging in the graves to find the horn, letting all those shades loose, but not finding the horn - and that's it. Its one reference.

Here's another thing were we really sure Mance was looking for the horn of winter? Or was he looking for something that would present itself as a nice visual bluff.I can't help but think based on the hints i found for the Wildlings essay that once he got passed the Wall every man for himself and he was going to be on his way toward his true purpose.

I don't know it may be a reasoning issue but how could you believe this horn would bring down the wall when Joramun was said to have already blown it.....and there's the Wall before you.So it must do something other than blow down the wall?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...how could you believe this horn would bring down the wall when Joramun was said to have already blown it.....and there's the Wall before you.So it must do something other than blow down the wall?

Wakes giants.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

While skipping around the world book, I noticed a couple of things obaut the hero with the flaming sword. One mention is he lived in a time before the Valyrian Freehold and even back towards the beginning of the Ghiscari Empire. Then there is another legend from Yi Ti that in the time of their ancient emperors the Long Night fell and a hero with a flaming sword and many names lead the fight against the darkness.

My thoughts have always been that the original Azor was before the time of the Long Night. A more ancient occurrence of a global darkness. Adding up the timelines, Valyria founded about 5000 years back, the beginnings of Old Ghiscari further back, but I don't see any time frame on that. If the Ghiscari Empire is well before the Freehold, then the Long Night seems to have happened much further back or there was more than one Darkness.

I guess I could see about 1000 years before the Freehold as enough time for the Ghiscari to rise up as a power putting us at 6000 years since the Long Night. I don't know if this is correct though.

Any thoughts?

[wolfmaid7]

Wakes giants.

Yeah that's what they say,but that's a waste of a "blow"

[Black Crow]

While skipping around the world book, I noticed a couple of things obaut the hero with the flaming sword. One mention is he lived in a time before the Valyrian Freehold and even back towards the beginning of the Ghiscari Empire. Then there is another legend from Yi Ti that in the time of their ancient emperors the Long Night fell and a hero with a flaming sword and many names lead the fight against the darkness.

My thoughts have always been that the original Azor was before the time of the Long Night. A more ancient occurrence of a global darkness. Adding up the timelines, Valyria founded about 5000 years back, the beginnings of Old Ghiscari further back, but I don't see any time frame on that. If the Ghiscari Empire is well before the Freehold, then the Long Night seems to have happened much further back or there was more than one Darkness.

I guess I could see about 1000 years before the Freehold as enough time for the Ghiscari to rise up as a power putting us at 6000 years since the Long Night. I don't know if this is correct though.

Any thoughts?

This has been the point of the timeline debate from the very beginning; bring the Long Night forward to say 6,000 years ago [or even not that long] and its starts to mesh with events in Essos and isn't a random event out of nowhere. Now in the World Book we're told that it was indeed 6,000 years ago rather than 8,000 years ago.

[Black Crow]

Wakes giants.

Does indeed, but now we find a reference to the children waking giants from the earth to bring down the hammer of the waters; its a metaphor rather than a reference to Wun Wun and his mates, and if so the point may be that it isn't enough to sound it metaphorically or otherwise, but it needs to be sounded somewhere within the earth, whether at Newgrange, the Tomb of the Eagles - or Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

I don't know it may be a reasoning issue but how could you believe this horn would bring down the wall when Joramun was said to have already blown it.....and there's the Wall before you.So it must do something other than blow down the wall?

Perhaps Joruman didn't sound it at all. Perhaps Joruman was the magician who made it.

And with that happy though. Good night all.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yeah that's what they say,but that's a waste of a "blow"

It is also called the horn of winter, whatever that means.

Maybe Joramun blew the horn to signal the attack on the Night's King, a.k.a. the King of Winter. He had giants (they enjoy horn music, especially Jazz Fusion) along with his followers and breached the Wall to assist the Stark of Winterfell. That's all three. Wakes giants, Winter horn, and 'brings down' the wall.

Next question, please.

[wolfmaid7]

It is also called the horn of winter, whatever that means.

Maybe Joramun blew the horn to signal the attack on the Night's King, a.k.a. the King of Winter. He had giants (they enjoy horn music, especially Jazz Fusion) along with his followers and breached the Wall to assist the Stark of Winterfell. That's all three. Wakes giants, Winter horn, and 'brings down' the wall.

Next question, please.

nahhhhhhhhhh you jest no?

[Black Crow]

It is also called the horn of winter, whatever that means.

OK I was on my way to bed when a thought occurred to me:

The children, we're told, using dark magics made all sorts of blood sacrifices and woke giants from the earth to cause the waters to rise and break the Arm of Dorne.

So did the three-fingered tree-huggers also use dark magics and make blood sacrifices to wake giants from the earth in order to cause the Long Night/Winter; hence the horn which now bears Joruman's name reputedly waking giants from the earth and also being known as the Horn of Winter?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

OK I was on my way to bed when a thought occurred to me:

The children, we're told, using dark magics made all sorts of blood sacrifices and woke giants from the earth to cause the waters to rise and break the Arm of Dorne.

So did the three-fingered tree-huggers also use dark magics and make blood sacrifices to wake giants from the earth in order to cause the Long Night/Winter; hence the horn which now bears Joruman's name reputedly waking giants from the earth and also being known as the Horn of Winter?

Horn Blown 1 ---> Giants Wake ---> Winter Begins ---> Long Night Lasts Generation ---> Others for the First Time

Horn Blown 2 ---> Giants Wake ---> Winter Ends ---> Glaciers Melt, Seas Rise ---> Arm Breaks, Neck Floods

(Magical Seasons On/Off Switch? Summer Giants vs. Winter Giants?)

NOTE: Earth Giants = Spartoi = Warrior Harvest of Dragon's Teeth