Heresy 140 [World of Ice & Fire Spoilers]

[butterbumps!]

What makes you think dragons are not naturally occurring things?

How strongly they are connected to sorcery and blood sacrifice.

[Matthew.]

Going forward, it is noted that some of the inhabitants of the Reach, annoyed at the prospect of Andal invasions, sought out the services of a woods witch who claimed she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back.

Between this reference, the Barrow King, the theory that the Others might have just been Wildlings pushed southward by the Long Night, and even figures like Symeon Star Eyes, I'm beginning to wonder whether or not the wights and 'Ice Magic' were simply a fact of life during that period in Westeros.

Rather than the Others and hordes of the slain being a unified threat that appeared during a single period, they were as scattered and factional as, say, the Wargs and Greenseers. Just as you had the King of Winter (likely) using warging as a tool of war against the Warg King, you might have had the Barrow Kings using ice magic, northern Wildling clans using ice magic, Symeon Star Eyes willingly becoming a White Walker, and so forth.

From that perspective, one could almost view the Long Night itself as a red herring, as relates to the present WW/Wight threat north of the Wall, intended to mislead us into thinking that what's going on is the Long Night 2.0. Instead, the only real connection is that the present invaders are using the same magic as the Others of the original Long Night, but their actual agenda is far more personal, and human, rather than them fighting on behalf of the 'power of Ice,' or whatever.

___________

As a comparison, we need only look at the various factions that are currently using fire magic. We've got Dany, Moqorro and Victarion, Lady Stoneheart, Melisandre, and perhaps some others, all operating with their own personal agendas, and using fire as a means, not a motive.

Stoneheart doesn't give a shit about a war between Ice and Fire, or even R'hllorism, she's just content to hang Freys; Benerro and Moqorro's motives seem largely political, Victarion wants to get one up on his brother, and Dany is trying to restore a dynasty.

Seeing how factious the 'fire side' of the equation is, how personal (and often petty) their motives, I'm beginning to suspect that whatever the Others are up to north of the Wall, it has more to do with the personal agenda of the Night's King/Bloodraven/The Singers/Whoever is running the show, and less to do with restoring magical balance.

[Melifeather]

Has everyone looked at the Reach chapter in detail?

Of note, the Reach was apparently the first major center of inhabitation post- landbridge crossing, and Garth Greenhand is allegedly the first First Men king. From Garth, a number of sons and daughters apparently went forth and proliferated.

One of these sons was Brandon of the Bloody Blade, best known for driving giants and CotF from the Reach, slaughtering a prodigious number of them.

He is apparently Bran the Builder's ancestor (possibly father, it's not clear).

Going forward, it is noted that some of the inhabitants of the Reach, annoyed at the prospect of Andal invasions, sought out the services of a woods witch who claimed she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back. Others, like the king, thought to seek out CotF to implore them to use their magic to dissuade the Andals. (the Andal invasions ended up being a peaceful assimilation, without much bloodshed, though). Point being, this brings home the idea of at least the wights as a political weapon, and seems to separate them from the CotF-- that is, it's a woods witch who was pitching the undead army, unconnected to the CotF's powers, who were sought for different magics.

Of further Reach note, there's that island in Oldtown called "Battle Isle." The book makes a point of pointing out that no one knows what battle was fought there to give it its name. This is where that black stone fortress sits, with what's now the light tower above it (the fortress quite literally became a "light bringer", lol).

It's worth mentioning that Oldtown and the Reach is a stone's throw from Starfall, which is right over the border, for anyone who suspects Dawn played a role in the Long Night.

I'm really wondering if the Battle for the Dawn took place in the North at all.

This is interesting and makes me think that the Long Night was symbolic for the war with the invading Andals, and it really mixes up the timeline. It also makes me think that the Pact was after the Long Night and not the other way around as promoted. To me it would make more sense.

[Amoracchius]

I think Martin's comment about how dragons could be found all over back in time is potentially confusing. It almost leads to speculation that dragons are somehow naturally occurring things. But I think it might be closer to the truth that they proliferated from some of the FM (perhaps unable to control them as well as the Valyrians eventually did), who were potentially fleeing some sort of catastrophe in the East, in the same way we know others did.

Is it possible that dragons are naturally occuring and that whatever caused them to disappear from most of the world also helped precipitate the Long Night? The destruction of what appear to be avatars of the fire side of "the song of ice and fire" ---> an imbalance toward the ice side?

[wolfmaid7]

How strongly they are connected to sorcery and blood sacrifice.

I wouldn't say they aren't naturally occurring.These are creatures that could hibernate for hundreds and hundreds of years. In some myths thousands of years depending on what type of Dragons. The issue I think is the Valyrians didn't let sleeping Dragons be.They awoke them in an age and time that was not ready for them.

Dany's eggs might of stayed petrified forever , but its again the matter of the two things that go together finallycoming together.

So the question then becomes do they belong to this time and age. Better yet do they belong in the Westeros of now or anytime in the future.

Can they thrive with people and other inhabitants?They should have just left them and they would have awoken when nature was ready for them.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Has everyone looked at the Reach chapter in detail?

Of note, the Reach was apparently the first major center of inhabitation post- landbridge crossing, and Garth Greenhand is allegedly the first First Men king. From Garth, a number of sons and daughters apparently went forth and proliferated.

One of these sons was Brandon of the Bloody Blade, best known for driving giants and CotF from the Reach, slaughtering a prodigious number of them.

He is apparently Bran the Builder's ancestor (possibly father, it's not clear).

Going forward, it is noted that some of the inhabitants of the Reach, annoyed at the prospect of Andal invasions, sought out the services of a woods witch who claimed she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back. Others, like the king, thought to seek out CotF to implore them to use their magic to dissuade the Andals. (the Andal invasions ended up being a peaceful assimilation, without much bloodshed, though). Point being, this brings home the idea of at least the wights as a political weapon, and seems to separate them from the CotF-- that is, it's a woods witch who was pitching the undead army, unconnected to the CotF's powers, who were sought for different magics.

Of further Reach note, there's that island in Oldtown called "Battle Isle." The book makes a point of pointing out that no one knows what battle was fought there to give it its name. This is where that black stone fortress sits, with what's now the light tower above it (the fortress quite literally became a "light bringer", lol).

It's worth mentioning that Oldtown and the Reach is a stone's throw from Starfall, which is right over the border, for anyone who suspects Dawn played a role in the Long Night.

I'm really wondering if the Battle for the Dawn took place in the North at all.

I read some of The Reach history last night and caught the part on the woods witch and Singers. I immediately thought of the Hammer of the waters. Is this something that the First Men believed the Singers capable of? It very well may be.

The black stone intrigues me although there is not much to glean from it. Tying in to the mazemakers of Lorath, the Season chair, the fallen stone in Yi Ti, and of course the Neck.

Going back to Lorath and the religious sect that broke away from Valyria. They worshiped the blind god and "...only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the higher truths of creation that lay concealed behind the world's illusions."

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Garth Greenhand seems like the harvest deity that was brought by the First Men and a reminder of their original religion in which blood sacrifices were being made. I think the only remnant of this ancient belief is in Pentos where they slit the throat of their princes should the harvest fail.

It is also interesting that the First Men practiced thralldom and polygamy. The Andals were slavers in Essos.

Yi Ti version of the Long Night seems interesting.

Cool. Yi Ti' backstory is interesting. I also noticed that the Rhoynar experienced a hella cold, causing the river to freeze. The solution to their problem was singing to break the winters hold.

[Melifeather]

What if the story of the Last Hero is actually an Andal story? Old Nan is the one that told it after all and she is likely a Frey. That would make the First Men the Others of that story.

[butterbumps!]

Between this reference, the Barrow King, the theory that the Others might have just been Wildlings pushed southward by the Long Night, and even figures like Symeon Star Eyes, I'm beginning to wonder whether or not the wights and 'Ice Magic' were simply a fact of life during that period in Westeros.

Rather than the Others and hordes of the slain being a unified threat that appeared during a single period, they were as scattered and factional as, say, the Wargs and Greenseers. Just as you had the King of Winter (likely) using warging as a tool of war against the Warg King, you might have had the Barrow Kings using ice magic, northern Wildling clans using ice magic, Symeon Star Eyes willingly becoming a White Walker, and so forth.

From that perspective, one could almost view the Long Night itself as a red herring, as relates to the present WW/Wight threat north of the Wall, intended to mislead us into thinking that what's going on is the Long Night 2.0. Instead, the only real connection is that the present invaders are using the same magic as the Others of the original Long Night, but their actual agenda is far more personal, and human, rather than them fighting on behalf of the 'power of Ice,' or whatever.

___________

As a comparison, we need only look at the various factions that are currently using fire magic. We've got Dany, Moqorro and Victarion, Lady Stoneheart, Melisandre, and perhaps some others, all operating with their own personal agendas, and using fire as a means, not a motive.

Stoneheart doesn't give a shit about a war between Ice and Fire, or even R'hllorism, she's just content to hang Freys; Benerro and Moqorro's motives seem largely political, Victarion wants to get one up on his brother, and Dany is trying to restore a dynasty.

Seeing how factious the 'fire side' of the equation is, how personal (and often petty) their motives, I'm beginning to suspect that whatever the Others are up to north of the Wall, it has more to do with the personal agenda of the Night's King/Bloodraven/The Singers/Whoever is running the show, and less to do with restoring magical balance.

I think I might be thinking of the discrete magics a bit differently. Like, I'm not so sure the KoW would be using "warging" magics at that point. I tend to think they're probably one of the ones-- if not THE originating ones-- using ice magic. And I'm pretty entrenched in the idea of the Others originating in a human source, and not truly something separate.

But those differences aside, I agree that there's probably differences in the "ice" factions. I mean, we have 3 seriously bizarre Northern Houses all fighting against each other (Bolton, Stark, Barrows).

I proposed a while back that this Symeon Star Eyes guy sounds remarkably like an Other, and is completely terrifying and connected to Nightfort, but seems to be regarded as a great hero (though, why he's a hero is never really explained). PW/ Antz/ Mormont's craven linked to a thread in the last Heresy about how Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slayed a dragon, and that the "mirror" of legend could plausibly be Other's armour, the point being that perhaps the Others are kind of dragonslayers.

If some of the first FM actually were proto-Valyrians and getting a little cute with their dragons, I could see a bunch of other FM getting annoyed with this, and designing a counter-magic to put an end to it, which would be lauded as heroic. And, of course, they in turn get carried away with that form of magic, causing a massive fiasco, and needing another counter measure to destroy all magic from the world (or something). I mean, both pre-Targ dragons and Others seem purposely obfuscated from all the histories, almost like something's been revised to make it seem alien in the records so that perhaps no one tries getting cute like that again or something (like breaking the cycle).

ETA: Feather--

I support the idea that this was harnessed in order to throw back the Andals as well, though that starts really screwing up the timeline. Of course, if the punchline is that all of this unpleasantness was due to humans wielding magic against these foreign invaders, I'm pretty sure all parties involved would purge the records and post-date such an event in order to obfuscate the record, making it seem much less connected to anyone present.

ETA2: also, incidentally, this leads into why the supposed ancientness of the Pact annoys me. You'd think something like that might happen after all these humans stop killing the CotF and playing with magic.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Someone brought up Valyrians and Daynes similarities earlier. I remember reading somewhere, many many moons ago, that these two families had no common blood. They are two seperate peoples.

[butterbumps!]

Someone brought up Valyrians and Daynes similarities earlier. I remember reading somewhere, many many moons ago, that these two families had no common blood. They are two seperate peoples.

That was me. Martin said that they aren't Targs (that's Martin's infamous "Elizabeth Taylor has purple eyes and isn't a Targ as far as I know" quote).

That doesn't preclude them from being proto-Valyrians, or coming from a common ancestor of the Valyrians.

Reading the architecture is what's making that even more plausible, imo-- at least that something akin to proto-Valyrians were hanging out in Oldtown. The architecture of that fortress is similar in engineering, though diverging in style from true Valyrian. Almost like the fortress in Oldtown was built using common technology, but prior to the flourishing style that either later, or separately, emerged in high Valyria. And the mystery of how Dawn was forged while these other FM were wielding bronze and iron would start making a considerable amount more sense.

ETA: the Westerlands chapter has a curious comment related to this. The question of why the Valyrians never attacked the Rock for the gold it was so hungry for is brought up. The "plausible" (according to Yandel) reason for this is that the Valyrians, in ancient days, reached as far as Oldtown, but suffered some sort of tragedy that caused them to shun Westeros thereafter.

The novels also include Tyrion's musing on this subject-- about how the Valyrians must have known all these was there to the West, so why didn't they take it.

[Amoracchius]

What if the story of the Last Hero is actually an Andal story? Old Nan is the one that told it after all and she is likely a Frey. That would make the First Men the Others of that story.

Why is Old Nan likely a Frey? Because her great-grandson is named, "Walder"? (1) The Freys don't have exclusive rights on the name, and (2) even if there is a Frey connection, it could just as easily be one of her children or grandchildren who married into the Frey family and then decided to give him that name.

[Black Crow]

Between this reference, the Barrow King, the theory that the Others might have just been Wildlings pushed southward by the Long Night, and even figures like Symeon Star Eyes, I'm beginning to wonder whether or not the wights and 'Ice Magic' were simply a fact of life during that period in Westeros.

Rather than the Others and hordes of the slain being a unified threat that appeared during a single period, they were as scattered and factional as, say, the Wargs and Greenseers. Just as you had the King of Winter (likely) using warging as a tool of war against the Warg King, you might have had the Barrow Kings using ice magic, northern Wildling clans using ice magic, Symeon Star Eyes willingly becoming a White Walker, and so forth.

From that perspective, one could almost view the Long Night itself as a red herring, as relates to the present WW/Wight threat north of the Wall, intended to mislead us into thinking that what's going on is the Long Night 2.0. Instead, the only real connection is that the present invaders are using the same magic as the Others of the original Long Night, but their actual agenda is far more personal, and human, rather than them fighting on behalf of the 'power of Ice,' or whatever.

___________

As a comparison, we need only look at the various factions that are currently using fire magic. We've got Dany, Moqorro and Victarion, Lady Stoneheart, Melisandre, and perhaps some others, all operating with their own personal agendas, and using fire as a means, not a motive.

Stoneheart doesn't give a shit about a war between Ice and Fire, or even R'hllorism, she's just content to hang Freys; Benerro and Moqorro's motives seem largely political, Victarion wants to get one up on his brother, and Dany is trying to restore a dynasty.

Seeing how factious the 'fire side' of the equation is, how personal (and often petty) their motives, I'm beginning to suspect that whatever the Others are up to north of the Wall, it has more to do with the personal agenda of the Night's King/Bloodraven/The Singers/Whoever is running the show, and less to do with restoring magical balance.

I agree pretty largely with this lot, that its not simply a matter of an external threat and that its down to characters who are within the story

[alienarea]

Let's face it: the single stories are fascinating as hell but the plot is down the drain.

[Black Crow]

This is interesting and makes me think that the Long Night was symbolic for the war with the invading Andals, and it really mixes up the timeline. It also makes me think that the Pact was after the Long Night and not the other way around as promoted. To me it would make more sense.

I'm still not convinced about possible Andal involvement in this; after all our Andal sources are far fuller than the runes and folklore which inform what we think of the story of the First Men.

That being said we have certainly discussed the possibility before that the Pact followed the Long Night rather than preceded it. Our knowledge is obviously pretty fragmentary but using their dark magic to waken giants from the earth and bring down the Long Night in order to force men to negotiate, hence the suggestion that the 13 heroes needed to find the children to cry pax. And this would also be consistent both the the Kings of Winter stories and the stories of the Andal conquest involving not somply children but greenseers. Its a very different, far more chaotic Westeros full of magic that we didn't get from Maester Luwin's sanitised history.

[Mithras]

What if the story of the Last Hero is actually an Andal story? Old Nan is the one that told it after all and she is likely a Frey. That would make the First Men the Others of that story.

I think Old Nan is a wildling captured in 226 when Raymun's campaign met a bloody end. I also think that she is the pregnant woman in Bran's vision.

[King of Winters]

I think Old Nan is a wildling captured in 226 when Raymun's campaign met a bloody end. I also think that she is the pregnant woman in Bran's vision.

I think she's the young woman kissing the tall man (Dunk) in Bran's vision. That would explain why Hodor is so tall.

[King of Winters]

That was me. Martin said that they aren't Targs (that's Martin's infamous "Elizabeth Taylor has purple eyes and isn't a Targ as far as I know" quote).

That doesn't preclude them from being proto-Valyrians, or coming from a common ancestor of the Valyrians.

Reading the architecture is what's making that even more plausible, imo-- at least that something akin to proto-Valyrians were hanging out in Oldtown. The architecture of that fortress is similar in engineering, though diverging in style from true Valyrian. Almost like the fortress in Oldtown was built using common technology, but prior to the flourishing style that either later, or separately, emerged in high Valyria. And the mystery of how Dawn was forged while these other FM were wielding bronze and iron would start making a considerable amount more sense.

ETA: the Westerlands chapter has a curious comment related to this. The question of why the Valyrians never attacked the Rock for the gold it was so hungry for is brought up. The "plausible" (according to Yandel) reason for this is that the Valyrians, in ancient days, reached as far as Oldtown, but suffered some sort of tragedy that caused them to shun Westeros thereafter.

The novels also include Tyrion's musing on this subject-- about how the Valyrians must have known all these was there to the West, so why didn't they take it.

I've always thought it was because the Valyrians were wary of the greenseers, which they would have knowledge of if they had been to Westeros before.

[Mithras]

I think she's the young woman kissing the tall man (Dunk) in Bran's vision. That would explain why Hodor is so tall.

Hodor's height can be related to a giant ancestry of Old Nan. Osha implied that Hodor might carry giant blood.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Actually, that was a speculation I made a long time ago on the R +L =J thread, not that it probably hadn't been discussed before, or that it was given much credence.

My thinking was along the lines of 'if you want to join ice and fire,what better place than in front of a bunch of weirwoods, with a setting of historical signficance. . . ' Back then I was thinking about the location and that it might have some kind of tie to the Pact (and hence, to the sort of 'heart' of Westeros and magic). Funny, I ended up in Heresy. . .

Oh yeah? Didn't realize you were the one started that, Eira! Else I would have ribbed you a bit when I let you in on my Crossroads Inn analysis... ;)

You can get anything you want at Masha's restaurant . . .

Yeah, but it was the definition of the word "Heddle" that really blew my mind. Add the crossroads, a Needle, A Gods Eye, etc... even a Reed here and there. Suddenly we've got ourselves a textile manufacturing center. Or a metaphorical loom, to say the least. (Missing tapestries at Castle Darry, even...)

My understanding is that a "turn" is exactly what it says, ie; a "moon's turn"; although that's not to say it equates to the 28 days of our own moon.

Well, it makes sense. But doesn't that make the Harrenhal-Tourney-to-Filthy-Abduction turnaround rather tight? Well, maybe it's always been that way, and Brandon was on his way back to Riverrun from the Tourney when he "heard about Lyanna"... but in my head, I'd always imagined him taking a trip home to Winterfell in the meantime.

Has everyone looked at the Reach chapter in detail?

Of note, the Reach was apparently the first major center of inhabitation post- landbridge crossing, and Garth Greenhand is allegedly the first First Men king. From Garth, a number of sons and daughters apparently went forth and proliferated.

One of these sons was Brandon of the Bloody Blade, best known for driving giants and CotF from the Reach, slaughtering a prodigious number of them.

He is apparently Bran the Builder's ancestor (possibly father, it's not clear).

Going forward, it is noted that some of the inhabitants of the Reach, annoyed at the prospect of Andal invasions, sought out the services of a woods witch who claimed she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back. Others, like the king, thought to seek out CotF to implore them to use their magic to dissuade the Andals. (the Andal invasions ended up being a peaceful assimilation, without much bloodshed, though). Point being, this brings home the idea of at least the wights as a political weapon, and seems to separate them from the CotF-- that is, it's a woods witch who was pitching the undead army, unconnected to the CotF's powers, who were sought for different magics.

Of further Reach note, there's that island in Oldtown called "Battle Isle." The book makes a point of pointing out that no one knows what battle was fought there to give it its name. This is where that black stone fortress sits, with what's now the light tower above it (the fortress quite literally became a "light bringer", lol).

It's worth mentioning that Oldtown and the Reach is a stone's throw from Starfall, which is right over the border, for anyone who suspects Dawn played a role in the Long Night.

I'm really wondering if the Battle for the Dawn took place in the North at all.

Admittedly, I haven't been able to devote much time to reading the WB straight through. That said - my impression of the book is that, in some ways, it's more distracting than informative. Don't get me wrong... that's not a slam. But the summarized history of Oldtown and Battle Isle is sort of a case in point. Reading just that section, it feels suddenly like all the timelines collapse and lose meaning. See: Valyrians on dragons visiting Oldtown before the arrival of the First Men. Lots of good new material, for sure. Not a lot of help in sorting out sequence, cause and effect. (If you're into that sort of thing.)

Let's face it: the single stories are fascinating as hell but the plot is down the drain.

Right. Just try to keep your eye on the ball... :stunned: