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Valyrian/Dragonlord blood is needed to tame/subdue dragons


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And just to remind people--because I think it is important to the evidence that blood is critical--not all Valryians could tame dragons--only members of the dragonlord houses. And the Targs were the only dragonlords to survive the Doom. So Valyrians that survived the Doom but are without Targ blood cannot tame dragons.

This evidence is important because the non-dragonlord Varyrians were around dragons for hundreds if not thousands of years prior to the Doom--and if none of them figured out how to bind a dragon in all of that time, logically it must because because it was impossible--their families were not part of the original blood magic ceremony and there is no way now to obtain the ability to bind a dragon.

Yes! Also a very good an important point. Made so clear by the fact that when the Targaryens left Valyria they took the Celtigars and Velaryons with them. And both of those families were not Dragonlord families, and did not ride dragons, except Velaryons who bred with the Targaryens specifically.

I mean c'mon, the fact that no Celtigar ever rode a dragon, even though they were from Valyria.....Is this not obvious enough?

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And the Targs were the only dragonlords to survive the Doom. So Valyrians that survived the Doom but are without Targ blood cannot tame dragons.

Well, not quite. There was a cadet branch of at least one dragonlord family living in Volantis at the time of the last war with the Rhoynish, so the might have been one or more there at the time of the Doom, too. And since Lys used to be a sex-resort catering towards the dragonlords specifically, it is quite likely that there are descendants of the bastards of the other 39 families living there.

Of course, if the bonding had been specific between particular human and dragon lines, that's neither here nor there, since the ability would be wholly theoretical for them anyway.

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Well, not quite. There was a cadet branch of at least one dragonlord family living in Volantis at the time of the last war with the Rhoynish, so the might have been one or more there at the time of the Doom, too. And since Lys used to be a sex-resort catering towards the dragonlords specifically, it is quite likely that there are descendants of the bastards of the other 39 families living there.

Of course, if the bonding had been specific between particular human and dragon lines, that's neither here nor there, since the ability would be wholly theoretical for them anyway.

Technical correction accepted. I had not bothered to go into that level of detail, but I appreciate the added color to the issue.

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ETA: In another thread discussing this topic, someone linked to an interview of GRRM. He stated that Targs intermarried to keep the bloodlines pure to better control the dragons. Why would GRRM say this if Targ blood had nothing to do with the ability to ride dragons?

That´s the evidence that Targaryens believed pure blood was important to control dragons. But that Targaryens believed it for a long time and acted on the belief does not mean Targaryens were right in their belief.

Look at what the Westerosi believe about noble blood and bastardy. They pick the evidence confirming their belief in the untrustworthiness of bastard as inborn by their conception, and ignore available alternative explanations, like the social position and upbringing of bastards. Does the prejudice of Westerosi against bastards mean that bastards are actually by birth immoral, or is it merely a self-fulfilling prophesy?

So: do we have direct confirmation that dragon blood actually does objectively help bonding with dragons, as opposed to being a prejudice or self-fulfilling prophecy held and perpetuated by Targaryens and their associates?

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That´s the evidence that Targaryens believed pure blood was important to control dragons. But that Targaryens believed it for a long time and acted on the belief does not mean Targaryens were right in their belief.

Valyrian dragonlords believed it too, and they were a pretty magically advanced society.

So: do we have direct confirmation that dragon blood actually does objectively help bonding with dragons, as opposed to being a prejudice or self-fulfilling prophecy held and perpetuated by Targaryens and their associates?

We have the evidence of Dany's handmaids, who have helped her feed and care for her hatchlings since the day they were born. Yet the dragons didn't develop any bonds to them and remained fixated on Dany alone. OTOH, they immediately liked Brown Ben Plumm, who has Targaryen blood.

We also have the fact that only natives of Dragonstone and Driftmark, where Targaryen blood would have been most common and descendants were likely to unknowingly intermarry, have been successful at claiming dragons during the Dance.

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That´s the evidence that Targaryens believed pure blood was important to control dragons. But that Targaryens believed it for a long time and acted on the belief does not mean Targaryens were right in their belief.

Look at what the Westerosi believe about noble blood and bastardy. They pick the evidence confirming their belief in the untrustworthiness of bastard as inborn by their conception, and ignore available alternative explanations, like the social position and upbringing of bastards. Does the prejudice of Westerosi against bastards mean that bastards are actually by birth immoral, or is it merely a self-fulfilling prophesy?

So: do we have direct confirmation that dragon blood actually does objectively help bonding with dragons, as opposed to being a prejudice or self-fulfilling prophecy held and perpetuated by Targaryens and their associates?

I was mainly reacting to the accusation that this theory is just based on Targ propaganda. That suggests the Targs know better--and they clearly do not. The Targs genuinely thought they needed to keep the bloodlines pure to control dragons. Could they be mistaken? I suppose--but they had many years in Valyria to see what happened over time regarding bloodlines. Those observations may have been tainted by what you refer to as "self fulfilling prophecy" but I tend to think that more likely they know what they were doing.

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That´s the evidence that Targaryens believed pure blood was important to control dragons. But that Targaryens believed it for a long time and acted on the belief does not mean Targaryens were right in their belief.

Look at what the Westerosi believe about noble blood and bastardy. They pick the evidence confirming their belief in the untrustworthiness of bastard as inborn by their conception, and ignore available alternative explanations, like the social position and upbringing of bastards. Does the prejudice of Westerosi against bastards mean that bastards are actually by birth immoral, or is it merely a self-fulfilling prophesy?

So: do we have direct confirmation that dragon blood actually does objectively help bonding with dragons, as opposed to being a prejudice or self-fulfilling prophecy held and perpetuated by Targaryens and their associates?

Valyrian dragonlords believed it too, and they were a pretty magically advanced society.

We have the evidence of Dany's handmaids, who have helped her feed and care for her hatchlings since the day they were born. Yet the dragons didn't develop any bonds to them and remained fixated on Dany alone. OTOH, they immediately liked Brown Ben Plumm, who has Targaryen blood.

We also have the fact that only natives of Dragonstone and Driftmark, where Targaryen blood would have been most common and descendants were likely to unknowingly intermarry, have been successful at claiming dragons during the Dance.

UM yes, we have an ass-load of evidence.

Dany bonding with her dragons and having dragon dreams like 3 times. Also she had dragon dreams before the eggs hatched, although she was travelling with a very large group of people and none of them ever had dragon dreams, nor did they bond with her dragons.

All through TRP and PATQ it is very clear that there are stable boys working near the dragons all the time, none of them ever bonded or rode any dragons.

All of D&E where the Targs are the only ones having dragondreams.

How about when Daenys foresaw the doom and told her dad 'We have to fly away now'.

The dragons liking BBP specifically, which is now confirmed that he has one (probably 2) Targaryen great-grandparents.

How Sunfyre came back to Aegon in his hour of need.

Jaak's comparison of the Westerosi view of bastards to the requirement of dragonblood to ride dragons is like comparing unicorns and cars. One is magic, and the other is social heirarchy.

The best comparison that works is First Men can warg/skinchange and Valyrians can tame/subdue dragons. Although something like; 'only White Walkers can control the others/ice zombies' would also work. Or something like 'only members of the NW who have said their vows can use the secret tunnel under the Nightfort'.

In this world of magic there has to be some sort of rules/guidelines to go by or else it is just a free-for-all and none of it makes any sense.

Does anyone who is arguing against this believe that just anyone can warg/skinchange? Or do they rightly understand that only certain people can do it?

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I was mainly reacting to the accusation that this theory is just based on Targ propaganda. That suggests the Targs know better--and they clearly do not. The Targs genuinely thought they needed to keep the bloodlines pure to control dragons. Could they be mistaken? I suppose--but they had many years in Valyria to see what happened over time regarding bloodlines. Those observations may have been tainted by what you refer to as "self fulfilling prophecy" but I tend to think that more likely they know what they were doing.

prop·a·gan·da

ˌpräpəˈɡandə/

noun

  1. 1.

    derogatory

    information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

    I am so sick of people using this as an excuse. The word Propaganda suggest that the info is misleading. Which is inaccurate. Hell, even some Targaryen princes believe it so much they take it to the next level and overdose on fire, like Aerion. Now I seriously doubt he would have done that just because of hubris. There are clearly stories from the Targaryen family that made him believe it would work. For instance, Dany walking into the pyre, we know in 2014 that GRRM has said "it was a one-time magical event." But did GRRM manage to tell that to Aerion Brightflame? No of course not, yet members of the family might hear the story of Dany and think, 'oh I'm Targaryen too, so I should be able to do that as well'. Which is clearly a mistake, but the rumors are based on something that actually happened. And some people in this family do have magic powers, not all of them, but a select few for sure.

    (I know the pyre happened long after Aerion was dead, just using it as an example, as I am quite certain Dany is not the first Targaryen to walk into a fire like that and live)

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We also have the fact that only natives of Dragonstone and Driftmark, where Targaryen blood would have been most common and descendants were likely to unknowingly intermarry, have been successful at claiming dragons during the Dance.

The tally for Sowing was 4 successful taming cases, 16 deaths, 48 failures with injuries, unspecified number of people who failed but escaped unhurt. The tally of Tumbleton was 0 successes, 2 attempts (burning was specifically fatal, we do not hear if tearing arm off was survived). Statistically, people who were hurt or killed trying to tame dragons outnumbered successes 16 to 1 even on Dragonstone. There simply have not been enough attempts elsewhere.

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Also, notably, people who succeeded in claiming the dragons during the Dance were not those who took care of the previously ridden dragons, fed them, etc. Only one of the dragonseeds might have lived lived in the castle - Ulf. That's not how taming animals normally works.

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The valyrians used magic to bind themselves to dragons and vice versa. This magic is instilled in their blood and that is why the bloodlines must be kept pure. It is necessary to have the dragon-blood in order to bond with a dragon. Fire for blood and blood for fire. The Targaryen words “Fire and Blood” are not only words of destruction/revenge etc. but the essence of the fire and blood magic itself – the source of power of the valyrian dragonlords.


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  • 2 weeks later...

Something to be considered here. Assuming Addam Velaryon is a bastard son of Corlys, rather than Laenor, might that suggest that dragonblood can be a generally Valyrian rather than specifically Targaryen trait?

Keep in mind that the Targs had been intermingling with the Velaryons for quite a while, so many of them had some Targ blood in any event.

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Susanna, Unmasked, and everyone who agrees with them,

Thank you SO MUCH for this informative, passionately argued and quotable thread! I know I would have just given up after so many contradictions. I've been looking at Westerosi genetics since the World Book came out but I'm new to the forums, so even though this post came out Nov 7 and I've started a couple of threads this last week, I had not read this one till it popped up again at the top this week.

I completely agree with all of your speculations here on the nature of Targ 'magical' genes allowing them to bond dragons. You've done a great job explaining it to many who might not have joined in but will certainly appreciate it.

At this point, I consider it fact, over proven if anything. I came to it independently, your arguments made me feel so much better as feedback has been sparse. Looks like it has just been discussed many times before.

My question now is where do you go from here with it. That is what I've been looking at in terms of Earth Magic and Ice Magic too, and how those are borne out in the bloodlines of a family or a few families that were specifically bonded to each originally. When did these bindings with humans happen? In response to what cataclysms or natural changes?

One theory I have is that the CotF blood magic and resultant natural cataclysm of earthquakes melted polar ice to raise sea levels to drown the Arm, drowning coastlines and towns all over the world, and raising the Others with decline of natural habitats. This resulted in the Long Night, and various pacts regarding the elements to try to magically keep the earth in balance or it would teeter into solely ice or solely fire. There will be other and possibly better theories - if so I would love to hear them but am daunted by the literally millions of posts on this forum.

The other thing I am interested in is other magics and genetics. Earth magic, for instance, rarely manifests but is possible for many Westerosi descended from first men if their ancestors married into the right families like the Blackwoods or Starks. But it can be so diluted that even carriers have been wiped out, but in some cases such as Valymir (sp?), unknown pairings of carriers and the right conditions lead to a very strong practitioner. In the Stark case they've been cousin marrying for years so kept the potential strong. The Blackwoods like the Targaryans with fire might have been one of the original Earth magic families , proof in the pudding Bloodraven, as well as their history, which is why their name crops up so much in the World Book.

Ice Magic tied to Starks (and possibly Dustin's) and those they've married, but without the right conditions, ie conversion in the form of a transformation sacrifice, such as with Craster's sons, never manifests. So our Starks don't even know about it. Maybe the knowledge was lost, or maybe both Rickard and Brandon dying at the same time meant the end of the knowledge. No question to my mind that Lady Dustin knows something about it but has no one to give the info to. All that about her husband's body took on new meaning in World - no wonder she was appalled and aghast at the body not being returned, and is interested in Winterfell crypts - she likely could not understand how Ned could do this if he was in the know, not knowing that he was not. Also gives new meaning to the burning of Brandon and Rickards bodies - they can't come back. That's a whole other theory though that I'd love to discuss with someone.

But you can see perhaps why I'd like this information about magical affinity 'genes', most obvious with the Targs, pinned or something. Because so many other theories are tied into it. I don't want to have to explain it every single time before branching out onto other hypotheticals that are based on it.

I'm wondering if we could do an essay on Heresy or pinned in on the forum or somewhere that explains some of these basics about the Fire Magic and Earth Magic affinities at least so they're better known, we can link it when theorizing later, and get on with it. Either of you want to try? Or maybe you know of something already that could be posted?

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Susanna, Unmasked, and everyone who agrees with them,

[snip]

Thanks for the shout-out. :cheers:

You bring up points I had only vaguely considered, but are quite interesting. Unfortunately, I don't think I have anything particularly useful to add to your analysis, but I will share my ramblings on the issue. What strikes me as most insightful is your suggestion that if blood magic was required to bond dragons to a bloodline, and blood magic always has serious consequences, then does it not make sense that the ability of certain bloodlines to warg (or skinchange) also might have been created by some ancient blood magic, and if so, what was the price to be paid? I wish I had a clear answer for you--but your speculation makes as much sense as any I can think of. The clues regarding how the dragonlords bonded to the dragons and the price paid seemed fairly evident from the clues provided to us by GRRM (the doom being a pretty big clue). I am not sure I can say quite the same for the other blood magic, but the Long Night and the creation of the Others seem to be likely candidates in some respect. I just cannot quite piece it all together coherently.

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Apple is usually so expressive regarding Targaryen threads, I wonder where she has gotten to? :lol:



But on topic - the evidence given so far (of course could change in future books), is that blood from specific Valyrian families was needed to ride dragons. Targaryens seem to be the last one alive (of course many descendants of the bastards of the other families would probably still remain - but maybe through all the intermarriage with other bloods - their blood as weakened, hence all the incest.



Dany is 50% Targ, 50% Blackwood though?


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Apple is usually so expressive regarding Targaryen threads, I wonder where she has gotten to? :lol:

But on topic - the evidence given so far (of course could change in future books), is that blood from specific Valyrian families was needed to ride dragons. Targaryens seem to be the last one alive (of course many descendants of the bastards of the other families would probably still remain - but maybe through all the intermarriage with other bloods - their blood as weakened, hence all the incest.

Dany is 50% Targ, 50% Blackwood though?

Percentages are not the point--what you need is the right "drop" of Targ blood. Clearly, Dany has proven herself to have the right drop. So whatever the likelihood that she would get the right drop is no longer important--she go it. I think before the end of the series, we will find out that Jon and Tyrion also have the right drop--and they have less Targ "blood" than Dany.

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Percentages are not the point--what you need is the right "drop" of Targ blood. Clearly, Dany has proven herself to have the right drop. So whatever the likelihood that she would get the right drop is no longer important--she go it. I think before the end of the series, we will find out that Jon and Tyrion also have the right drop--and they have less Targ "blood" than Dany.

I agree. I think the next step, is to figure out what consists of the "right drop" - if we can ever do this. In hindsight BBP, was probably I dead giveaway - why include the dragons attraction to him at all if not making a statement about Valyrian blood and dragon riding.

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I agree. I think the next step, is to figure out what consists of the "right drop" - if we can ever do this. In hindsight BBP, was probably I dead giveaway - why include the dragons attraction to him at all if not making a statement about Valyrian blood and dragon riding.

I tend to think this is part of it...but it's also a dragon character moment: Viserion is the friendliest and least aggressive of Dany's 3. It's Viserion who lands on Plumm's shoulder and who's more inquisitive than anything else with both Pretty Meris and Quentyn Martell.

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I agree. I think the next step, is to figure out what consists of the "right drop" - if we can ever do this. In hindsight BBP, was probably I dead giveaway - why include the dragons attraction to him at all if not making a statement about Valyrian blood and dragon riding.

I've been looking at the Targaryan line. The house was slightly weakening because of outmarriages but those partners were not of houses aligned with any kind of element antithetical to Fire until Alicent Hightower enters the picture. The Hightowers are so closely aligned with water that they're even said to perhaps predate the First Men and possibly worshipped the the same God as the Ironborn. The Martells come a little later into the picture. They've got water alignment too from the Rhoynar. If earth and air are components of fire, then marrying into those houses might mix up the Targaryan genes but marrying into water houses, particularly High tower, could quite reasonably start 'quenching' the house of its fire affinities over the course of time.
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