TWOIAF Spoilers: The dragon in Winterfell and its possible future relevance to the plot

[Colonel Green]

Yes, I know. But so what? I know that magic is on the upswing, and Dany seems to be a part of it. How does this prove that everything revolves around Dany? How does it prove that the glass candles are burning in honor of Dany (if that is what you are implying)?

They aren't burning "in honor" of Dany. The rebirth of the dragons triggered it.

Sure it makes sense. The world is vast and unexplored. We are shown that dragon eggs can lay dormant for hundreds of years (at least) before hatching.

The world is vast and unexplored. Winterfell is not.

Megomanaical fantasies are common in fantasy, but there is nothing particularly "realistic" about them. A normal assessment of the laws of probability would suggest that if Dany just happen to have 3 dragons, they are probably not the only 3 dragons in the whole universe. Normal assessment the laws of probability is that what happened to Dany may hapen to others. Yes, perhaps Dany really is the most ultra-ultra special girl in the whole universe; and yes, perhaps letting anyone else have any dragons would be an enormous blow to her overblown ego. But that has nothing to dow with realism. Realism would suggest that 99.9999% of those girls who think they are the most ultra-special girl in the whole universe are dead wrong.

Dragon eggs are ultra-rare to begin with. "The laws of probability" would suggest the the extreme confluence of factors leading to the rebirth of the dragons would not unlikely to be repeated much, if at all, without knowing imitation.

[Good Guy Garlan]

So does that mean Ramsey woke a dragon, since he burned WF?

Ramsay is AAR, it is known.

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and R'hllor shows me only Snow" :leaving:

[ChillyPolly]

They aren't burning "in honor" of Dany. The rebirth of the dragons triggered it.

Says you! But you cannot prove it. As far as you know, the burning of the glass candles may have triggered the birth of dragons. Or a wider magical upsurge may have triggered both events. The reappearance of the Others, the reappearance of Direwolves, and probably more things that I cannot think of right now, all preceded the birth of Dany's dragons.

The world is vast and unexplored. Winterfell is not.

[Lord Varys]

Magic did not come back with the dragons. It's return - or rather a very special event - was heralded by the comet. But the Others were there long before the dragons, not to mention that Dany's blood magic spell did work before the dragons actually returned. That would not have been the case if the death of the dragons really destroyed fire magic.

In essence, I would only presume that dragons serve as an amplifier for certain fire magics (like wild fire, and other pyromancy stuff).

And there is no reason not to believe that the presence of three living and thriving dragons would not make the hatching of other dragon eggs easier.

The assumption that Ramsay and company thoroughly searched Winterfell is ridiculous:

- They did not find Bran and Rickon in the crypts

- They did not properly kill Maester Luwin

- They did not find Wex

[Colonel Green]

The assumption that Ramsay and company thoroughly searched Winterfell is ridiculous:

- They did not find Bran and Rickon in the crypts

- They did not properly kill Maester Luwin

- They did not find Wex

I don't imagine they "thoroughly searched" it. But Bran and co. were hiding in the crypts. Moreover, the whole idea of hidden dragon eggs under Winterfell that the Starks don't know about even though Mushroom somehow does and these rumours are historical record (which the Starks would surely have investigated) is ridiculous to begin with. The hot springs are not some little-trafficked area.

[Mithras]

Look at what Drogon did in (and to) the Dothraki Sea and tell me honestly that a dragon can live unnoticed in the North.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think the Starks don't know about those eggs. But the idea that they must be displayed if they are there is not very convincing to me. The Starks do not show around their wealth.

In my opinion, we have to take that quote from ACoK much more serious than we had to before the publication of TWoIaF. I never liked the idea that the Starks had dragon eggs before, but now the Vermax story really gives a completely new angle at that - before that, the theory went mostly with the six dragons visiting Winterfell with Jaehaerys I.

Jon riding a dragon hatched from an egg laid by the very dragon whose rider originally suggested a marriage between Stark and Targaryen really sounds like something George would do.

Not to mention that a dragon could go unnoticed in the North for quite some time, although by now people may have realized that it is there. We readers don't know it yet, though.

[Luke Floorcrawler]

Look at what Drogon did in (and to) the Dothraki Sea and tell me honestly that a dragon can live unnoticed in the North.

why is everyone picturing this huge dragon. "Whitebeard" even suggests that dragons that are in a confined environment remain small. And as far as the crypts of Winterfell, they are vast but still confined. GRRM goes to great lengths to reiterate this many times. If you don't know what you are looking for you're not going to find it in there. Especially with a torch or candle in your hand as your only source for light.

[Mithras]

Jon riding a dragon hatched from an egg laid by the very dragon whose rider originally suggested a marriage between Stark and Targaryen really sounds like something George would do.

Not for me. The symbolism is all about Jon, the Stark-Targaryen marriage, Ice and Fire.

Not to mention that a dragon could go unnoticed in the North for quite some time, although by now people may have realized that it is there. We readers don't know it yet, though.

Impossible. Dragons fly and hunt. It is not a direwolf that can live unnoticed deep in the wolfswood.

ETA: In addition, a hatchling by itself dies from starvation because Dany's hatchlings were unable to cook their meat, let alone find them. So, who fed the hatchling?

why is everyone picturing this huge dragon. "Whitebeard" even suggests that dragons that are in a confined environment remain small. And as far as the crypts of Winterfell, they are vast. GRRM goes to great lengths to reiterate this many times. If you don't know what you are looking for you're not going to find it in there. Especially with a torch or candle in your hand as your only source for light.

Why the hell George should introduce a pigme dragon? What good does it make to the story?

[Colonel Green]

why is everyone picturing this huge dragon. "Whitebeard" even suggests that dragons that are in a confined environment remain small. And as far as the crypts of Winterfell, they are vast. GRRM goes to great lengths to reiterate this many times. If you don't know what you are looking for you're not going to find it in there. Especially with a torch or candle in your hand as your only source for light.

Dragons make noise. Moreover, dragons need to eat.

[Luke Floorcrawler]

Dragons make noise. Moreover, dragons need to eat.

Small Dragons make small noises. Eat small rats. These are natural predators not babies.

[Luke Floorcrawler]

Not for me. The symbolism is all about Jon, the Stark-Targaryen marriage, Ice and Fire.

Impossible. Dragons fly and hunt. It is not a direwolf that can live unnoticed deep in the wolfswood.

ETA: In addition, a hatchling by itself dies from starvation because Dany's hatchlings were unable to cook their meat, let alone find them. So, who fed the hatchling?

Why the hell George should introduce a pigme dragon? What good does it make to the story?

they don't grow until they are in the open. All 3 of Dany's were stunted until they were brought out into the open. How did the very first dragon eat if they had to have a human parent?

[Mithras]

they don't grow until they are in the open. All 3 of Dany's were stunted until they were brought out into the open.

They were not able to produce fire which is essential to kill and feed themselves. How do you propose that the dragon in Winterfell fed itself?

[Lord Varys]

Well, on the burned remains of the slain/burned, of course. Not to mention that not all hatchlings must necessarily be in the same state when they hatch. Dany's dragons may not have been able to breathe fire, this would could have. Just as babies differ in size.

If there was no dragon eggs stuff mentioned along with Vermax, Jace, and this Pact of Ice and Fire, I'd go with the 'Jon symbolism' thing. But that's in there, and it is clearly corroborated by the last Bran chapter of ACoK.

[Moondancer]

I don't know if this has been mentioned - but how does a dragon go about entering the crypts? :D

[The Wolves]

The only Dragon in Winterfell was Jon.

[Mithras]

Well, on the burned remains of the slain/burned, of course. Not to mention that not all hatchlings must necessarily be in the same state when they hatch. Dany's dragons may not have been able to breathe fire, this would could have. Just as babies differ in size.

If there was no dragon eggs stuff mentioned along with Vermax, Jace, and this Pact of Ice and Fire, I'd go with the 'Jon symbolism' thing. But that's in there, and it is clearly corroborated by the last Bran chapter of ACoK.

You do realize that TWOIAF has many obviously false claims right? I know that you do not buy a lot of Mushroom's BS in tPatQ; why do you trust him on this now?

[cgf]

I don't know what else you have in mind, but the last sentence in AGOT is easily overcome by remembering that the Chapter is written from from Dany's POV and reflects her beliefs. Otherwise, I can disprove R+L=J by reminding you of statements made about Jon's heritage in Catelyn's chapters.

Well, we don't have any "reliable" information about any of this either. You are simply trying to disprove the theories of others by saying they contradict theories of your own. We will not know the "entire point of Dany's arc" until we see how her story ends.

Right? Personally I think Dany's arc would be just as interesting if she decided to stay in essos, learned to not suck at ruling, and fought the long night however it manifests there.

[ChillyPolly]

Look at what Drogon did in (and to) the Dothraki Sea and tell me honestly that a dragon can live unnoticed in the North.

Okay: Here goes: A dragon can live unnoticed in the North. I honestly think so.

You have not given me any reason why not. Explain your argument.

Of course, I don't particularly see the NEED to establish such a thing, since TWOIAF establishes that there is no need whatsoever to assume that any extant dragons went unnoticed. Pretty much all the local commoners believe in the existence of the Dragon of Winterfell. The problem is simply that the Maesters refuse to believe what the common folk report.

[ChillyPolly]

Impossible. Dragons fly and hunt. It is not a direwolf that can live unnoticed deep in the wolfswood.

This is a terrible bad argument for two reasons.

(1) Have you any idea how freaking huge the wolfswood is? Give me one good reason why Godzilla himself could not live there unnoticed!

(2) How can you prove that it went unnoticed? You can't! It is now established that pretty much all the common-folk of Winterfell believe in the Dragon of Winterfell, and no-one believes them! So what do you think will happen if a hunter reports seeing a dragon (or a grumkin, or a snark), in the Wolfswood! Nothing!