Was Alyn Velaryon loyal to his wife Baela Targaryen?

[BaguastanSelmy]

“She was the fairest treasure of the Maidenvault. Lord Oakenfist the great admiral lost his heart to her, though he was married to another. She gave their son the bastard name of ‘Waters’ in honor of his father, and he grew to be a great knight, as did his own son, who put the ‘Long’ before the ‘Waters’ so men might know that he was not basely born himself. So I have a little dragon in me.”

Rennifer Longwaters said this in Jaime I, aFfC

But in tWoIaF,

Elaena, the youngest, was more willful than Rhaena, but not as beautiful as either of her sisters.

She hoped to wed him, it is written, but a year after his disappearance at sea, she gave up hope and agreed to marry elsewhere.

Obviously, Elaena is not the fairest treasure as Longwaters had boasted. And if wedding Alyn was her true wish, I doubt Baela would have been dead so that Elaena's wish could possibly come true some day.

[Hardstone]

An SSM stated that Elaena grew to be more beautiful over time. "More beautiful at 70 than 17"?

[Lord Varys]

It seems that Baela was already dead when Elaena and Alyn fell in love. Elaena intended to marry Alyn, after all.

Alyn may have had an affair with the Princess of Dorne, though, during the voyages in his youth. That suggests that he was not exactly faithful.

[Hardstone]

From the quote above, I'd gathered that Baela was still alive when they had their initial affair which resulted in Jon & Jeyne. But she had died by the time Alyn went missing and Elaena planned to marry him.

[BaguastanSelmy]

From the quote above, I'd gathered that Baela was still alive when they had their initial affair which resulted in Jon & Jeyne. But she had died by the time Alyn went missing and Elaena planned to marry him.

I'm kind of disappointed... That's what they say Like Father (Corlys), like son?

:(

[The hairy bear]

The marriage between Alyn and Rhaena seems to be a political match, devised by Corlys during his regency to assure that Alyn was not questions as heir to Driftmark when he died.

With that in mind, and having in mind that Baela ended "burned and battered" from his fight with Aegon II (presumably leaving scars for the rest of her life), I wouldn't blame Alyn too much for being ungaithful to his wife.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

It's likely that Baela died young, I think.

We're forgetting that, although Baela survived the Moondancer/Sunfyre battle and lived long enough to have children with Alyn, we don't know how bad her injuries were. She stayed strapped to her dragon as she fell, and was "battered and burned" - after Sunfyre blasted fire in Moondancer's face (enough to blind her; so Baela would have gotten some too).

Point is, she may have survived, but only lived for a couple of years due to the extent of her injuries (last we hear of her is her and Rhaena scheming to marry Aegon III to Daenaera Velaryon). Just think... something like a broken hip - very likely to happen in a fall like that - is likely to be crippling without modern surgery.

And Elaena is a full generation younger than Baela (being the youngest daughter of Aegon III, who is a few years younger than Baela). Even if she had Jon and Jeyne with Oakenfist when she was 15/16, that's still a good few years after Oakenfist married Baela (at least 20, as Elaena is her parents' youngest daughter).

So all in all, it's possible Baela was dead before Oakenfist and Elaena hit it off.

Although I was a massive Baela AND Elaena fan before TWOIAF came out, so pretty cool they both bagged the Oakenfist at one time or another.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

The marriage between Alyn and Rhaena seems to be a political match, devised by Corlys during his regency to assure that Alyn was not questions as heir to Driftmark when he died.

I got the feeling that Corlys was a spent force by the time of the Regency, while Baela and Rhaena had taken over the main scheming duties (they managed to scheme to save Corlys from the Hour of the Wolf; they later schemed to marry Aegon III into the Velaryons).

[BaguastanSelmy]

 

It's likely that Baela died young, I think.

We're forgetting that, although Baela survived the Moondancer/Sunfyre battle and lived long enough to have children with Alyn, we don't know how bad her injuries were. She stayed strapped to her dragon as she fell, and was "battered and burned" - after Sunfyre blasted fire in Moondancer's face (enough to blind her; so Baela would have gotten some too).

Point is, she may have survived, but only lived for a couple of years due to the extent of her injuries (last we hear of her is her and Rhaena scheming to marry Aegon III to Daenaera Velaryon). Just think... something like a broken hip - very likely to happen in a fall like that - is likely to be crippling without modern surgery.

And Elaena is a full generation younger than Baela (being the youngest daughter of Aegon III, who is a few years younger than Baela). Even if she had Jon and Jeyne with Oakenfist when she was 15/16, that's still a good few years after Oakenfist married Baela (at least 20, as Elaena is her parents' youngest daughter).

So all in all, it's possible Baela was dead before Oakenfist and Elaena hit it off.

Although I was a massive Baela AND Elaena fan before TWOIAF came out, so pretty cool they both bagged the Oakenfist at one time or another.

 

I don't think Baela's injury is too bad. Not only she survive the duel and the fall, but also give birth to at least one son. And her recovery is fast, faster than expected that she played a part in Cregan-Corlys stuff.

But I do feel she is dead during Elaena's time.

[Maia]

Well, it seems that Oakenfist was not free to marry Elaena when she became pregnant with mutual bastard twins, otherwise why didn't he tie the knot and spare his kids bastardy? But he did become available some time during his last voyage, so, presumably, his wife died then. And it was probably Baela. Yes, she had been "battered and burned" in her battle with Aegon II, but it doesn't mean that she couldn't have had a long life anyway. Alyn was burned in his attempt to claim Sheepstealer too, after all.

And yea, it seems that he did cheat on Baela, but it is rather normal for a Westerosi man, alas. Even Jahaerys had likely done done so, which, presumably, led to his first estraangement from Alysanne.

[Mithras]

Well, it seems that Oakenfist was not free to marry Elaena when she became pregnant with mutual bastard twins, otherwise why didn't he tie the knot and spare his kids bastardy? But he did become available some time during his last voyage, so, presumably, his wife died then. And it was probably Baela. Yes, she had been "battered and burned" in her battle with Aegon II, but it doesn't mean that she couldn't have had a long life anyway. Alyn was burned in his attempt to claim Sheepstealer too, after all.

And yea, it seems that he did cheat on Baela, but it is rather normal for a Westerosi man, alas. Even Jahaerys had likely done done so, which, presumably, led to his first estraangement from Alysanne.

Maybe Aegon IV didnot allow it. After all, he is the prime suspect for fathering Viserys Plumm from Elaena.

[Lord Varys]

We have no inclination as to how badly Baela was hurt, but I'd suggest that we do not enter the lasting injuries/disfigurement territory yet. Baela and Rhaena were present at the ball where they introduced Daenaera Velaryon to Aegon III, and Ran has also revealed that they arranged that marriage, as well as that they were influential behind the scenes during the Regency.

The fact that Baela appeared in public strongly speaks against a 'her face became a smoking ruin' theory. Thus I'd go with the theory that the affair began after Baela was dead. A marriage was most likely not considered at first due to the age difference and because, I assume, that Alyn would have thought Elaena may want to marry somebody else.

It seems that Alyn and Elaena's affair began shortly after she was released from the Maidenvault (that would have been during the reign of Viserys II, not Aegon IV), and during the reign of the Unworthy she was free enough to stick to the plan to marry Alyn for a year.

Ossifer Plumm would have clearly been chosen by Aegon IV for his age, I assume - after all, Elaena had shown that she clearly favored elder men with Alyn.

[The Pie of Flea Bottom]

I think I have totally lost something here, where was i stated that Oakenfist married Baela?

Thanks in advance for clearing my mind.

[BaguastanSelmy]

I think I have totally lost something here, where was i stated that Oakenfist married Baela?

Thanks in advance for clearing my mind.

In the family tree of Targaryen lineage. :)

[The Pie of Flea Bottom]

In the family tree of Targaryen lineage. :)

Thank you, Ser! I thought that I had lost something in the texts about the Targaryen kings.

[BaguastanSelmy]

We have no inclination as to how badly Baela was hurt, but I'd suggest that we do not enter the lasting injuries/disfigurement territory yet. Baela and Rhaena were present at the ball where they introduced Daenaera Velaryon to Aegon III, and Ran has also revealed that they arranged that marriage, as well as that they were influential behind the scenes during the Regency.

The fact that Baela appeared in public strongly speaks against a 'her face became a smoking ruin' theory. Thus I'd go with the theory that the affair began after Baela was dead. A marriage was most likely not considered at first due to the age difference and because, I assume, that Alyn would have thought Elaena may want to marry somebody else.

It seems that Alyn and Elaena's affair began shortly after she was released from the Maidenvault (that would have been during the reign of Viserys II, not Aegon IV), and during the reign of the Unworthy she was free enough to stick to the plan to marry Alyn for a year.

Ossifer Plumm would have clearly been chosen by Aegon IV for his age, I assume - after all, Elaena had shown that she clearly favored elder men with Alyn.

Can't remember details... Was Jon & Jeyne already born before Alyn starts his last voyage? If they are still in Elaena's womb that time, the story could be:

1 Baela died in early time.

2 Alyn and Elaena fell in love.

3 Alyn promised Elaena to marry her when he comes back and spent a last night together.

4 Tragedy...

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Yup I take the point above that Baela's injuries were such that she was able to "bounce back" quickly enough to save Corlys from Cregan etc.

Also I just remembered reading before TWOIAF about Elaena being in love with her cousin Oakenfist, even though he was "married to another" (sorry I forgot this totally before).

So the only question is whether this another is Baela.

By 171AC (earliest year for the Elaena/Oakenfist affair, as she left the Maidenvault), Baela would be 55 (she was born in 116AC).

That's an advanced age (although Oakenfist himself would be a year older). Here we might consider whether Baela's injuries may have shortened her life down the track - but there's not enough info.

[Lord Varys]

That old quote about Alyn being 'married to another' comes from Elaena's description for the Amok portrait and has been superseded by the stuff GRRM wrote from TWoIaF (already in effect since TPatQ). Originally Alyn Velaryon was apparently not alive during the Dance, but rather a first cousin of the children of Aegon III (through Aegon's wife, Daenaera Velaryon), and most likely only a few years older than the Young Dragon.

In that scenario Elaena and Alyn would have fallen in love in the middle of their life, and Alyn's wife - whoever she would have been in that scenario - would have still been alive when that happened, effectively preventing a marriage.

We don't know when Elaena's children by Alyn were born, but it is entirely possible that he did not know she was pregnant and that the children were only born after he went missing. In fact, I assume that Alyn would have not gone on that sea voyage if he had known that Elaena was pregnant, or if she had already delivered his children. I guess they would have gone through with the marriage after her pregnancy was known in any case, to spare Elaena Daena's shame.

[BaguastanSelmy]

Originally Alyn Velaryon was apparently not alive during the Dance, but rather a first cousin of the children of Aegon III (through Aegon's wife, Daenaera Velaryon), and most likely only a few years older than the Young Dragon.

In that scenario Elaena and Alyn would have fallen in love in the middle of their life, and Alyn's wife - whoever she would have been in that scenario - would have still been alive when that happened, effectively preventing a marriage.

Wow, this is new to me, thanks :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Even Jahaerys had likely done done so, which, presumably, led to his first estraangement from Alysanne.

Where was this?