97 replies to this topic

[Quiet Isle]

Werthead, on 21 September 2006 - 12:01 PM, said:

We know something from ADWD spoilers:

SPOILER: ADWD
The Seven apparently appeared incarnate among the people of the Hills of Andalos (south of Pentos in the Free Cities), which became the basis for the religion of the Faith of the Seven and the start of the Andal culture. It may be that the Seven encouraged the Andals to migrate to Westeros.

Finding out creation myths and the like could be interesting though.

It is my belief that since the Seven appeared INCARNATE, that we have the Seven with us already.  They will be the figures we all know, and are making the iconic journey of transformation into their personal archetype of one of the Seven.  Certainly Gendry is the Smith - his arc started the moment Cersei threw him away and he went into trade as a blacksmith.  Arya is becoming DEATH so she is the Stranger.  I thought initially that Sansa would be the maiden, but I am beginning to think she is going to outgrow that role and become a Mother figure.  Sandor started as a warrior, but is becoming quietly faithful and he may end up being the Father.  The Crone will of course be Catlyn or whatever she is now. Barristan I believe will be the warrior.   Dany I am leaving out because I truly believe she is going to die.  Her role was to get the dragons where they needed to be, and she will imho.  It started out to me so simply, but with the character arcs moving, it's as if the icons are changing.  fascinating.  but i truly believe the power of THE SEVEN INCARNATE will be a huge part of winning the endgame - when they team up in force with the other religions.

Edited by RAGNAROK, 07 October 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Tysha Lannister]

Mister Manticore, on 21 September 2006 - 05:40 PM, said:

I would say that it's likely that the Worship of the Seven is not so big on the Greek Mythology-stories, and more on the philosophical, at least somewhat among the more learned.  But I could be wrong.

A lot of religions have several parts that make up one deity.  In christianity, it would be the holy trinity.  In wicca, it's the maiden, mother, crone.  The idea of 7 aspects of the same god or goddess is nothing new.

I have to say, I love what Martin has done when creating each religion to represent each region of the IaF world.  It's the details about these religions that give depth to those who worship them.

-TL

[The Dragon has three heads]

RAGNAROK, on 07 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

It is my belief that since the Seven appeared INCARNATE, that we have the Seven with us already.  They will be the figures we all know, and are making the iconic journey of transformation into their personal archetype of one of the Seven.  Certainly Gendry is the Smith - his arc started the moment Cersei threw him away and he went into trade as a blacksmith.  Arya is becoming DEATH so she is the Stranger.  I thought initially that Sansa would be the maiden, but I am beginning to think she is going to outgrow that role and become a Mother figure.  Sandor started as a warrior, but is becoming quietly faithful and he may end up being the Father.  The Crone will of course be Catlyn or whatever she is now. Barristan I believe will be the warrior.   Dany I am leaving out because I truly believe she is going to die.  Her role was to get the dragons where they needed to be, and she will imho.  It started out to me so simply, but with the character arcs moving, it's as if the icons are changing.  fascinating.  but i truly believe the power of THE SEVEN INCARNATE will be a huge part of winning the endgame - when they team up in force with the other religions.

I think the stranger is varys-or an as yet to be defined eunuch as the stranger is neither mail or female, but yes, seven incarnate is a thing I reckon.  And I'm sure it ties in with AA somehow as well.
But otherwise

[Quiet Isle]

I believe the iconic figures will be in place at the endgame, but i also believe there are no gods in this series.

[DaeneryStormBorn]

Would love to read more about the Gods of Valyria,  Aegon Dragon's are named after them.

[Fire Eater]

DaeneryStormBorn, on 17 November 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

Would love to read more about the Gods of Valyria,  Aegon Dragon's are named after them.

Just what were Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes the gods of? That's something I would like to know.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Ditto.
And I think we'll find out because so far every god has possible representations in the story, the complete lack of valyrian religion up to now has to be intentional.

[The Red Pope]

Fire Eater, on 21 November 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Just what were Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes the gods of? That's something I would like to know.

I doubt that we will learn much more about them, mostly because nobody worships them any more. They're a curiosity, just like the Ghiscari gods.

[Ser Lepus]

The Red Pope, on 29 November 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

I doubt that we will learn much more about them, mostly because nobody worships them any more. They're a curiosity, just like the Ghiscari gods.

Poor ghiscari gods aren't even a curiosity, we don't even know their names....

About those ghiscari gods, when Dany first visit Astapor she says that the ghiscari gods were forgotten and nobody worshipped them anymore, but they have those massive Temples of the Graces at Slaver's Bay, with those priestesses that seem to be so important to their society...which gods do those priestesses worship? Or maybe they are sort like the Maesters, and they are called priestesses because of lack of a better word?

[Rodrik of Dorne]

Ser Lepus, on 29 November 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Poor ghiscari gods aren't even a curiosity, we don't even know their names....

About those ghiscari gods, when Dany first visit Astapor she says that the ghiscari gods were forgotten and nobody worshipped them anymore, but they have those massive Temples of the Graces at Slaver's Bay, with those priestesses that seem to be so important to their society...which gods do those priestesses worship? Or maybe they are sort like the Maesters, and they are called priestesses because of lack of a better word?

I think that after the Ghiscari gods were forgotten some foreigner religion was adopted. Maybe even a religion based on that of Valyria. The know there are ethnic Valyrians living in the free cities, and maybe the old Valyrians gods survived somehow. If that's not the case, maybe the Ghiscari adopted some religion from lands further east.

[Ser Lepus]

Rodrik of Dorne, on 30 November 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

I think that after the Ghiscari gods were forgotten some foreigner religion was adopted. Maybe even a religion based on that of Valyria. The know there are ethnic Valyrians living in the free cities, and maybe the old Valyrians gods survived somehow. If that's not the case, maybe the Ghiscari adopted some religion from lands further east.

I would like GRRM to explain the issue in the "World of Ice and Fire" book, but I haven't too much hope.

[Rodrik of Dorne]

Ser Lepus, on 30 November 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I would like GRRM to explain the issue in the "World of Ice and Fire" book, but I haven't too much hope.

Can say the same. It would be nice if GRRM decided to write some essays on the subject, after ending ASOIAF.

[The Red Pope]

Rodrik of Dorne, on 05 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Can say the same. It would be nice if GRRM decided to write some essays on the subject, after ending ASOIAF.

quote from ADWD Barristan and Green Grace

Quote

“How can you be certain?” Unless you know the poisoner. “The gods of Ghis have told me.”

I think that you've actually found an inconsistency in the story. It's not so strange that there are a few in such a massive work.

[Nick Baratheon]

I´d give far more than a fig for some background info on the old gods

[louied]

It would be cool to find out more about the gods of the summer islanders. We know from Summer islander Chataya in a clash of kings that highborn children serve as prostitutes to honor the gods but we never find out which gods or how it honors them. It would be interesting to find out.

[deerhunter]

The Seven are the perfect example of Ludwig Feuerbach's idea of projection: what we describe as deities are actually ideal personifications of various facets of human nature. The mother and father are projections of ancient archetypes that were created as a result of man's tendency toward nuclear family units and the people who create and nurture them. As mothers and fathers create and sustain families, the Mother and Father sustain life and fulfill the same roles, only in a much larger context. The Smith represents work and commerce. The Warrior: strength, aggression, warfare. The Maiden: purity and youth. The Crone: wisdom. The Stranger: death, the unknown, fear. There is a little more too it than this, but I see the Seven as a created religion. What I mean by this is that the gods are ideals created by the early Andals as a way to cope with humanity and its place in the world; as a religion it is instrumental in exerting its tempering effect on society. Septons and septas offer guidance and support. Knights are bound to their oath by the faith of the Seven. The Silent Sisters offer their services in burying the dead.

I see the Old Gods as the opposite of this. Rather than being projections of man, the Old Gods are a reaction to the mystery of the world as an unyielding force to be adapted to, not conquered. We seem to know more about the origins of the Old Gods, being those that the Children of the Forest revered before the invasion of the First Men. To me, this is a parallel to the religions of some native people, notably Native Americans of the North American continent. I don't see the CotF worshiping these trees as "gods" or any other part of nature as an actual deity. As I said earlier, they are more likely to see the old "Gods" as a force, by which they live and die, as well as draw their magic. As the First Men began to settle down and make peace with the CotF, they came to understand what the heart trees mean. The lineage from the First Men is a primary motivator for more "modern" worshipers of the Old Gods. They do it out of tradition and respect for ancestors, which, historically, fits well with religions that aren't necessarily focused on deities. Another reason that Northmen in particular worship the old gods is that they are at a greater mercy to the forces of nature, and can understand the need to respect the ancient ways that govern the world.

Just a few thoughts on two of the religions in the book and what they might mean.

[Ser Lepus]

deerhunter, on 04 January 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

The Seven are the perfect example of Ludwig Feuerbach's idea of projection: what we describe as deities are actually ideal personifications of various facets of human nature.

The Seven aren't just ideal personifications of various facets of human nature, they are personifications of the main roles in Andal/Westerosi society.

Another cultures would include a Musician, a Horseman, a Healer, a Lover, a Sailor, a Hunter, a Child...etc. The Father and the Mother are quite universal archetypes, but, if you see the rest, the Maid and the Crone represent stages of the life of a woman, while the Warrior and the Smith represents social classes.
The men are defined by their job, and those are jobs that are very representative of a feudal society: the Warrior is a knight, and the Smith is a working peasant (the most respected kind of working commoner, by the way). The Father isn't just a father, he's a ruler and a judge, a lord.
As for the women, they could have used a Child as representative of innocence, but they use a Maid because of their cultural obsession with teenaged virgin girls. The Mother and the Crone represent the role of mothers and grandmothers; they aren't associated with professions like the Warrior or the Smith because the job of a woman is to care for the family.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 04 January 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[deerhunter]

Ser Lepus, on 04 January 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

The


The Seven aren't just ideal personifications of various facets of human nature, they are personifications of the main roles in Andal/Westerosi society.

Another cultures would include a Musician, a Horseman, a Healer, a Lover, a Sailor, a Hunter, a Child...etc. The Father and the Mother are quite universal archetypes, but, if you see the rest, the Maid and the Crone represent stages of the life of a women, while the Warrior and the Smith represents social classes.
The men are defined by their job, and those are jobs that are very representative of a feudal society: the Warrior is a knight, and the Smith is a working peasant (the most respected kind of working peasant, by the way). The Father isn't just a father, he's a ruler and a judge, a lord.
As for the women, they could have used a Child as representative of innocence, but they use a Maid because of their cultural obsession with teenaged virgin girls. The Mother and the Crone represent the role of mothers and grandmothers; they aren't associated with professions like the Warrior or the Smith because the job of a woman is to care for the family.

deerhunter, on 04 January 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

There is a little more too [sic] it than this

Good post