Regions of the Seven Kingdoms

[Nittanian]

Currently, the regions of the Seven Kingdoms are capitalized within wiki articles. For example, Crownlands is used instead of crownlands, Stormlands instead of stormlands, etc.

Within ASOIAF, however, GRRM has consistently used lower case for the crownlands, the north, the riverlands, the stormlands, and the westerlands. He consistently capitalizes Dorne, the Iron Islands, the Reach, and the Vale of Arryn. The World of Ice and Fire follows the same conventions used in ASOIAF, with the exception that "the north" is capitalized as "the North".

In my opinion, we should use lower case as GRRM does for the crownlands, riverlands, stormlands, and westerlands. Any thoughts if we should use "the north" or "the North"?

Additionally, there is inconsistency with how the wiki's articles are named, with some having "The" in their title. The wiki currently has them at: "Crownlands", "Dorne", "Iron Islands", "The North", "The Reach", "Riverlands", "Stormlands", 'Vale of Arryn", and "The Westerlands".

The World of Ice and Fire has chapters titled "The North", "The Riverlands", "The Vale", "The Iron Islands", "The Westerlands", "The Reach", "The Stormlands", and "Dorne". The app (A World of Ice and Fire) has entries titled "North", "Riverlands", "Vale of Arryn", "Iron Islands", "Reach", and "Dorne". There are not individual entries for the crownlands, the stormlands, and the westerlands.

Wikipedia has their own guidelines for using "The" in titles here.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'd say that the "the" part of the titles can be deleted, as explained in the wikipedia-page you linked

On the contrary, United States does not include the article "The", because sentences such as "California is part of the United States" are written with a lowercase "the".

I think that using the capitalized titles (Crownlands, instead of crownlands etc.) could be a good idea, as it is still the name of a Kingdom were are talking about. But if they truly are never written in the canon material with a capital letter, then on the wiki it shouldn't be done either.

The North is spelled with a capital when used in titles, such as Warden of the North, Kings in the North etc. I only did a quick search in A Game of Thrones, but it seems to me that when they are speaking about "the north" in the book, they are not necessarily referring to the Kingdom, the North, but the northern part of the Seven Kingdoms (which, in essence, is the same, but specification is different).

For the Riverlands, Crownlands and Stormlands, and why there is no capital letter used, I don't know.

[Nittanian]

I'd say that the "the" part of the titles can be deleted, as explained in the wikipedia-page you linked

On the contrary, United States does not include the article "The", because sentences such as "California is part of the United States" are written with a lowercase "the".

I think that using the capitalized titles (Crownlands, instead of crownlands etc.) is a good idea, as it is still the name of a Kingdom were are talking about.

The North is spelled with a capital when used in titles, such as Warden of the North, Kings in the North etc. I only did a quick search in A Game of Thrones, but it seems to me that when they are speaking about "the north" in the book, they are not necessarily referring to the Kingdom, the North, but the northern part of the Seven Kingdoms (which, in essence, is the same, but specification is different).

For the Riverlands, Crownlands and Stormlands, and why there is no capital letter used, I don't know.

I lean against using the capitals unless GRRM himself does so. Capitalization of the geographic regions of the crownlands, riverlands, stormlands, westerlands appears to be fan usage, not canon usage by GRRM. Likewise for the north, with the exception of TWOIAF. Our usage should correspond with GRRM's usage.

Crownlands: GRRM uses lower case with the geographic region; it was never a kingdom. "Asha would have called them king's men, but the other stormlanders and crownlands men named them queen's men" (ADWD, Asha), "lords of the crownlands, sworn to the Iron Throne" (ADWD, Appendix), "He called his loyal lords to King's Landing, but all that came were minor lords of the crownlands" (TWOIAF).

Dorne: I can't find a mention of the phrase "Principality of Dorne" or "Kingdom of Dorne". "High Kings of Dorne, the lords of House Yronwood in time ruled northern Dorne" (TWOIAF), "... in the light of their burning, Princess Nymeria named Mors Martell the Prince of Dorne" (TWOIAF).

Iron Islands: GRRM always uses capitals with the islands. "He'll help the Mallisters escort that lot of captives to Seagard and then take ship for the Iron Islands" (ACOK, Robb), "Great Wyk was the largest of the Iron Islands" (AFFC, Aeron). "The High King of the Isles was chosen from among their number" (AGOT, Appendix), "Harwyn Hoare, called the Hardhand, King of the Iron Islands" (TWOIAF).

North: In ASOIAF GRRM always uses lower case with the geographic region and capitals in titles, like "King in the North" and "Warden of the North". "Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north lunlucky enough to be born with no name of their own" (AGOT, Bran), "Even in the north men fear the wroth of Tywin Lannister" (ADWD, Jon), "I'll burn him, and the north will see how I deal with turncloaks and traitors" (ADWD, Stannis), "Jolly Jack, he was called before Redbeard came down upon the north" (ADWD, Jon), "If Winterfell was the heart of the north, White Harbor was its mouth" (ADWD, Davos).

TWOIAF, however, capitalizes the place. "Even in the North, King Torrhen Stark of Winterfell sat with his lords bannermen and counselors late into the night ..." "Jaehaerys created the first unified code, so that from the North to the Dornish Marches, the realm shared a single rule of law." This could be useful within the wiki to differentiate between the former kingdom and directional north, and the capitalization in TWOIAF makes it a canonical alternative to the lower case used in ASOIAF.

Reach: GRRM always uses capitalization with both the geographic region and the kingdom. "The Tyrells were no more than stewards until Aegon the Dragon came along and cooked the rightful King of the Reach on the Field of Fire" (ASOS, Olenna), "by virtue of a blood tie to House Gardener, the old Kings of the Reach" (ASOS, appendix), "sweet reds from the Reach and sour reds from Dorne" (ADWD, Tyrion), "The Reach proper ... stretching from the Shield Islands ... as far as the Mander's headwaters" (TWOIAF), "The domains of House Tyrell, the Lords of Highgarden, now largely correspond with those of the Kingdom of the Reach" (TWOIAF).

Riverlands: GRRM always uses lower case with the geographic region. "The fewer days we spend in these mountains, the more like we are to reach the riverlands" (AGOT, Bronn), "Aegon Targaryen granted the riverlands to House Tully" (AGOT, Appendix), "The north is in chaos, the riverlands a devastation, a rebel holds Storm's End and Dragonstone" (ADWD, Tyrion). "A thousand years before, the sons of the River King had been slaughtered here" (ACOK, Theon), "Here lies Tristifer, the Fourth of His Name, King of the Rivers and the Hills" (ASOS, Catelyn), "Though many a lord would name himself King of the Rivers and Hills or King of the Trident" (TWOIAF).

The realm of House Hoare during the Conquest uses a dual title. "North of the Blackwater, the riverlands were ruled by the bloody hand of Harren the Black of House Hoare, King of the Isles and the Rivers" (TWOIAF). These few Hoares were seated at Fairmarket and then Harrenhal, not the isles.

Stormlands: GRRM uses lower case with the geographic region and capitals with titles. "Tarly men had perished here as well, though, and many from the stormlands" (AFFC, Brienne), "Hasty hailed from the stormlands, so had neither friends nor foes along the Trident" (AFFC, Jaime), "He was a knight of Westeros, a man of the stormlands and the Dornish marches" (ADWD, Barristan). GRRM capitalizes the Durrandon "Storm Kings" and TWOIAF states "The Kingdom of the Storm shrank, king by king, battle by battle, year by year."

Vale: GRRM always uses capitalization with both the geographic region (called both the Vale and the Vale of Arryn) and the kingdom. "Your uncle waits in the Vale, does he not?" (AGOT, Ned), "some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it" (AGOT, Sansa), "The Arryns are descended from the Kings of Mountain and Vale" (AFFC, Appendix), "new-crowned King of Mountain and Vale" (TWOIAF), "And from that day forth, the Vale itself has been known as the Vale of Arryn" (TWOIAF).

Westerlands: GRRM always uses lower case with the geographic region (with the exception of the ASOS Appendix) and capitals with the Lannister kings. "... with Robb's army in the Westerlands" (ASOS, Appendix), "yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands " (AFFC, Pate), "Satin comes from Oldtown, and Arron and Emrick from the westerlands" (ADWD, Bowen), "certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands" (TWOIAF). "His own remote ancestor, King Loren of the Rock, had tried to stand against the fire" (AGOT, Tyrion), "The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest" (ASOS, Robb), "for they defended the Trident's western marches against the Kingdom of the Rock" (TWOIAF).

TWOIAF confirms that the "Seven Kingdoms of Westeros" refers to the kingdoms at the time of Aegon's Conquest, "yet even then, the term was far from exact ... nonetheless, the term endures". We could create separate articles for the historical kingdoms. For example, the historical Durrandon "Kingdom of the Storm" (which once included the riverlands) could be separate from the geographic "stormlands" ruled by the Baratheons at the start of AGOT, "Kingdom of the Reach" could discuss the historical Gardener realm, "Reach proper" could discuss the region around Highgarden which formed the basis for the larger "Kingdom of the Reach", "Reach" could discuss the geographic region ruled by the Tyrells at the start of AGOT, etc. This would be similar to Wikipedia having a general article on "France" (Tyrell Reach at the start of AGOT) and a historical article for the "Kingdom of France" (the defunct Gardener kingdom incorporated into the Targaryen realm).

[Nittanian]

Ran also verified the lower case usage here.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah, before you replied the first time, I had adjusted my post, stating

I'd say that the "the" part of the titles can be deleted, as explained in the wikipedia-page you linked

On the contrary, United States does not include the article "The", because sentences such as "California is part of the United States" are written with a lowercase "the".

I think that using the capitalized titles (Crownlands, instead of crownlands etc.) could be a good idea, as it is still the name of a Kingdom were are talking about. But if they truly are never written in the canon material with a capital letter, then on the wiki it shouldn't be done either.

So basically, I agreed with your reply..

I think my adjustment was made after you had clicked the quote button :p

[Nittanian]

Yeah, before you replied the first time, I had adjusted my post, stating

So basically, I agreed with your reply..

I think my adjustment was made after you had clicked the quote button :P

Gotcha! I had begun looking for quotes about the north/North, then decided to do it for each region for thoroughness. Using lower case for the "-lands" isn't a high priority issue, but we can gradually change to lower case when we're already editing an article for other reasons.