Best and most overrated fighters

[Ashur]

He killed an already wounded knight, probably an achievement given who the knight was but not enough to put him in the top tier

And he did a terrible job of it - Pyp doesn't even know how to properly hold a sword until Jon tell him and Endrew Tarth and Iron Emmet are both said to be doing a better job than him.

Well, maybe you're right about Allister, but Lyn Corbray... is not that he killed Lewyn Martell, but also broke the Dornish line along with his men, and probably killed more than a knight.

[Northbound3.0]

First off, I don't think Ned is overrated by the book community. In fact I think he is usually underrated a lot, and I think you are underrating the Greatjon right now. The Greatjon is probably the best fighter from the North and that is something a lot of people overlook and underestimate. There are not many people in the books that could face off against the Greatjon and live.

Again, I'm not saying the Greatjon isn't a capable fighter and I'll give you that he is the best fighter in the North(Mance may be the better swordsman though.) That being said, there just happens to be a good number of swordsmen in the South that could defeat him. It seems as if you think, I'm bashing the Greatjon....which I'm not. The OP sated best and most overrated, alive or dead. The fact is, that given those parameters; we could sit here and name over 20-30 fighters better than him. Perhaps 10 of which, are a live today.

As for Ned, again I personally feel book readers overrate him. Just an opinion. He lived through RR and when Balon revolted. So yes, he can fight. I've just seen far to many people on this forum, talk him up to be a great swordsman/fighter.....which the author himself, said he is not. However; and I've stated this plenty of times before, Ned is underrated as a general and commander. You don't make it through a war as general, like he did. He, Robert, Stannis and Jon A; pretty much destroyed the Targaryen regime and army and Ned's actions as a commander is a major reason why. Further proof of this, are the actions of the two oldest boys he raised. Jon Snow has now shown to be a tactical thinker and very capable commander in a battle. I don't think I need to touch on how good of general Robb was. It is not happenstance, that Jon and Robb are good/very good at commanding in a battle; they learned every thing they know about war, from the Ned.

[Tijgy]

Again, I'm not saying the Greatjon isn't a capable fighter and I'll give you that he is the best fighter in the North(Mance may be the better swordsman though.) That being said, there just happens to be a good number of swordsmen in the South that could defeat him. It seems as if you think, I'm bashing the Greatjon....which I'm not. The OP sated best and most overrated, alive or dead. The fact is, that given those parameters; we could sit here and name over 20-30 fighters better than him. Perhaps 10 of which, are a live today.

Sorry to say this, but I think it is kind unrealistic to say that the best fighter of the entire North is worser than 20-30 people of the south.

According to Jaime, he is one of the people who could beat Jaime in a fight. And during the Red Wedding he was attacked by eight men and, drunk, he still managed to kill one man and wounded two other men.

[Talleyrand]

According to Jaime, he is one of the people who could beat Jaime in a fight.

No he isn't Jaime says he's stronger but that Jaime could still take him.

And during the Red Wedding he was attacked by eight men and, drunk, he still managed to kill one man and wounded two other men.

Which while an impressive feat of strength it should be reminded that these guys weren't trying to kill or hurt him they were trying to take him alive

[INCBlackbird]

well... Theon's definitly underrated. he's really good at archary! not the best I would assume but he's good and people never talk about this.

[Tolsimir]

Ned is the most overrated fighter. I seem to distinctly recall an excerpt where it was mentioned that when Bronze Yohn was visiting Winterfell he had a sparring match with Ned and defeated him whithout breaking a sweat, despite being like 20 years older. It's been a while since I've read the books, but I think it was there.

And yet people are still saying that he is underrated, even if everyone in the books never even considers him when thinking about good fighters. And the only time we hear about his prowess is when we hear he got schooled by Royce and saved at the TOJ by Reed.

Now that I think of it, we never even hear about him doing anything remotely special when it comes to fightning, and yet people are still saying how good he is lol.

[DamoDega]

Lol at Greatjon being overrated

He almost never get mentioned in best warriors list and he's basically a huge Zangief who swing a fucking giant sword (bigger than Ice and not valyrian steel)

"Jon Umber is a large man, nearly seven feet tall. He is heavily muscled and is a formidable warrior. Jaime Lannister regards him as one of the strongest living men in Westeros when thinking of who could match him in a fight"

I don't think he got a true good chance of beat Jaime (imho Sandor, Barristan, Garlan, Gregor), i think Jaime was more intrigued by the idea of the match up, kinda like a brazilian jujitsu guy that want test his pure technique against some hulkish huge wrestler

I think he will still get outclassed by most of the top 10, but i ever figured him as the second biggest/strongest dude after The Mountain, it ever given me the impression of be more huge than other famous heavyweights like Sandor/Victarion/Strongboar

Again, i'm not putting him in the top 10 (maybe he can get in now, with many of the best being dead or having some handicap), but we seen that brawl istinct + physical power is a combination that often given the victory to the big guy over the more skilled opponent

Again, no legend material or incredible skill but is hard see him as "overrated" when he never get mentioned

[JonSnowLives]

Ser Gregor clegane is the most overrated the only reasons he was so feared was his size strength and cruelty. I would say Jamie, Sandor, and Ser Barristan and probably Ser Arthur Dayne were the best fighters but now with Jamie without a hand Sandor "dead" Ser Barristan old and Arthur dead they're not the best anymore

[DamoDega]

Ser Gregor clegane is the most overrated the only reasons he was so feared was his size strength and cruelty.

To be fair

Size and strenght ARE advantages, specially when we talk about somebody that's almost not human

But aside that it allow him to use his unique equipments

-six-foot sword used with one hand

-thickest armor ever

-huge oakshield

Basically ridicolous reach and defense

Also the only times we seen him against elite guys is kinda deceptive:

-Short clash where Sandor seem to not go 100%

-Duel with Oberyn

Sandor is just ridicolous good, imho he's with Jaime and Barristan there for the #1 spot

Oberyn "is an exceptional fighter, his speed and skill with both spear and sword are renowned", but more than that it was "designed" by GRRM specifically to be the anti-Gregor.

Eight-foot spear to beat to his usual range advantage, speed and light armor to avoid deadly unstoppable blows, skill to successful aim at his unbreakable-armor weak spots, poison to kill no matter where he hit to bypass that his vital organs are too protected

In short, do a "top 10" of fighters active during story. Gregor will likely kill most of them. How that can be "overrated?"

[JonSnowLives]

To be fair

Size and strenght ARE advantages, specially when we talk about somebody that's almost not human

But aside that it allow him to use his unique equipments

-six-foot sword used with one hand

-thickest armor ever

-huge oakshield

Basically ridicolous reach and defense

Also the only times we seen him against elite guys is kinda deceptive:

-Short clash where Sandor seem to not go 100%

-Duel with Oberyn

Sandor is just ridicolous good, imho he's with Jaime and Barristan there for the #1 spot

Oberyn "is an exceptional fighter, his speed and skill with both spear and sword are renowned", but more than that it was "designed" by GRRM specifically to be the anti-Gregor.

Eight-foot spear to beat to his usual range advantage, speed and light armor to avoid deadly unstoppable blows, skill to successful aim at his unbreakable-armor weak spots, poison to kill no matter where he hit to bypass that his vital organs are too protected

In short, do a "top 10" of fighters active during story. Gregor will likely kill most of them. How that can be "overrated?"

Yes they are but his skill with the sword is overrated he has good instincts but he just has to swing his behemoth sword in any direction and kill whatever is in his path thats not skill just brute strength which is still good but skill would be better in the long run so in my opinion he's overrated

[Mal Malenkirk]

Yes they are but his skill with the sword is overrated he has good instincts but he just has to swing his behemoth sword in any direction and kill whatever is in his path thats not skill just brute strength which is still good but skill would be better in the long run so in my opinion he's overrated

Is this a 'pound-for-pound' discussion? Because being taller and stronger is a legitimate way to be a better fighter than somebody else.

There is maybe a romantic notion at work that 'Skill' is more noble than raw attributes like Height, strenght or speed. But it's an illusion because skill itself is not just the pure result of efforts or sacrifice. Two men can train just as hard and will certainly develop their skill at different pace while reaching toward a different peak. That's because the development of fighting skills are tied to genetic predispositions that are every bit as random and unfair as simply being taller. Greater balance because of a more efficient inner ear, greater ability to gauge distances as well as anticipate your opponent's next move because your brain is better wired for it than most, higher pain threshold etc.

In the end, you put in as much efforts as humanly possible and then simply trust that the random genetic baggage you possess will carry the day if you fight an opponent that has trained as hard as you. That's pretty much it.

[Dragons 7th Eye]

Ned is the most overrated as a fighter in the boards. The show ruined him as a character a bit by overrating him a lot plus he had so many other great attributes and people really like perfect characters. He was by no means bad, GRRM called him "competent". I think Jon is a clear second as he seems like he is a good sword, like dozens of knights. For some reason especieally with these two fans seem to have trouble accepting that being badass doesn't necessiraly require being a top ten or whatever fighter. Bronn probably although I really like the character as a whole. Blackfish is an awesome character but I see no reason for him to be included in the top lists as regularily as he is.

Jaime seems a bit underrated by many people but not as much in the boards. Again the show ruined it a bit by coming up with the duel with Ned - which had it been in the books would have been a no contest - and by making Brienne overpower him at the bridge. Again the books tell a different story. It is too bad too, because I feel these changes downplay the importance of Jaime losing his hand and thus make what seems like makings of an excellent arc a bit less so for the show watchers.

Loras is criminally underrated for all the facts that there are and same seems to go to a lesser extend to Renly. I really don't like either character although Renly is much better in the books and the show ruined him in a way as well. Renly is still pretty meh in the books and Loras is just annoying. He is awesome with a blade regardless. In fact he kinda reminds me of the antagonist in the movie Rob Roy, whose name eludes me. Only that was a far more interesting character than Loras.

The best fighters, I quess, in my opinion alive and as they are in the books after ADWD are probably Garland and Barry. Bronze Yohn et al. are somewhat speculative at this point as is Vic etc.

[Guess who's back]

This thread again...

Also who the hell in these forums are overrating Ned?! Like seriously. No one is putting him up among the greatest. Many people consider him above average and that isn't overrating imo.

[Ser Greenseer]

This thread again...

Also who the hell in these forums are overrating Ned?! Like seriously. No one is putting him up among the greatest. Many people consider him above average and that isn't overrating imo.

Exactly

[LordQorgyle]

Top 10in the beginning of AGOT:

Jaime Lannister

Barristan Selmy

Garlan Tyrell

Sandor Clegane

GreatJon Umber

Andrik The Unsmilling

Jason Mallister

Loras Tyrell

Yohn Royce

Oberyn Martell

[Dragons 7th Eye]

Where is the harm in having this thread again? It is not like it has not been named clearly enough if you wish to skip it. It is not like it's the early nineties and we need to save bandwidth :)

Also every one is saying Ned is the greatest ever is no more true than saying that no one is putting him among the greatest. And neither are really what is being said in this thread, again. Many things are said by different people. I said he is overrated, in my opinion and based on my perception of the boards. You are free to disagree with me as well as I am free to think that many people putting him above average is the reasonable ceiling and he might as well have been below average - for a lord. Which is obviously better than 99.9% of the population of the Westeros.

[Avalatis]

Ned has not been over-rated by the forums. I constantly see people dismissing him as average or sub-average. So if anything he is under-rated. The problem is we don't have much to go on. I would support the list that he is of the "elite" or above average (which isn't suprising as he has had training as a High Lord which is generally better than most), but not a contender of the top swordsman in the realm.

1.) Survived RR without suffering any injuries (notable that is). We know he isn't a coward or one to lead from behind. Robert would not have respected him if that was the case.

2.) Tower of Joy he went against some of the best swordsmen in the realm in a 7v3 fight. He again walked away without suffering injury or dying. But again you don't walk away from a fight against such top tier swordsmen by being average or sub-average.

He was either above average or possibly elite in his prime.

[LordQorgyle]

Ned is an average fighter no more than that he got totally owned by yohn royce

[Ser Greenseer]

Ned is an average fighter no more than that he got totally owned by yohn royce

Ned is good not great. Bronze Yohn Royce is great not amazing. Getting beaten by Bronze Yohn doesn't detract from Ned because Bronze Yohn is probably the Vale's equivalent to the Greatjon which means he is one of the best fighters in westeros.

[Taenqyrhae]

The Mountain was probably the deadliest, but due to his size and not necessarily skill. A martial arts teacher told me once that a black belt in karate will amost always lose to an untrained fighter who outweighs him by 100 pounds and can take a punch unless the black belt gets very lucky. Skill only counts for so much and size is very, very important in many kinds of fighting - a study on people who have received gunshot wounds showed the one physical factor that had a direct correlation to how likely you were to survive was body size - the bigger you are, the harder you are to kill. To Gregor, almost all other warriors are child sized.

So, I don't think he's overrated. In a swordfight, I think any warrior in Westeros would be lucky to beat Gregor. I think the only reason he lost was that he was dealing with a fighter using a weapon he was not used to and which was ideally suited for fighting against a bigger, stronger opponent, a weapon that also happened to be poisoned.