Best and most overrated fighters

[LordQorgyle]

Jaime considers Sandor one of the bests in the seven kingdoms

[Taenqyrhae]

Thing is, Gregor has a lot more than strength. He has size, which IS extremely important in fighting, as I pointed out above. Not only does he have more protecting his vital organs than most people even if he's naked, he's got a lot more reach, and in fighting just an inch of reach difference can make a huge difference. Secondly, he IS fast...multiple characters commented that he moves a lot faster than expected. Secondly, he has a LOT of combat training and experience. He's been groomed to be a warrior since before he burned his little brother's face off. I would bet if you put Gregor in a Jon Snow-sized body and gave him a week of practice to get used to not having his unusual amount of reach, he would wipe the floor with Jon Snow and most other similar-sized swordsmen, just because he's had much more experience fighting in a non-training environment. I see no reason to think that Gregor would be a lesser swordsman than Ned even if you took the size advantage away.

Gregor's strength ties in to one of his most important advantages - he is a nobleman, with the resources to buy expensive, specialized equipment and mounts that make use of his great size. Even with normal gear, the combination of training, speed, and size would make Gregor dominate nearly all swordsmen in a fight. Add on top of that a 6' sword and armor too thick and heavy for most men to wear, and you have what is probably the most deadly swordsman in Westeros. Oberyn was a true badass, a master of sword and spear, but he knew that he would have no chance against Gregor with a sword. He also had no chance with a non-poisoned spear - if he had not cheated, Oberyn would have just plain lost, Gregor's victory would not have been Pyrrhic.

[Taenqyrhae]

most people in asoiaf fight with swords but i do think its a little naive to say gregor doesnt know how to defend against a spear. he likely never fought anyone as talented with one as oberyn, but i have to assume that hes gone against plenty of spears. the guys killed arguably more people than anyone else in the series.

i agree with what you said about size mattering in a fight but not as much in this topic. gregor vs anyone hand to hand is over before it starts. for this thread they both have weapons and weapons can negate strait size and strength pretty well. i might be able to beat up a 5'5, 140 pound trained boxer in a bar fight but if we put on boxing gloves and spar im getting my ass kicked lol.

I'm sure he's fought spearmen before, but the text makes it clear that the long, flexible spear that is common in Dorne is not a common weapon in Westeros. Gregor surely has fought people wielding them before, but he's fought a lot more swordsmen, and he never fought anyone as skilled with the spear as Oberyn - and he still won, and he would have won much more easily if Oberyn didn't poison him.

Re: fighting training vs. practical fighting, in my informed opinion (I used to be a bar bouncer), boxers are the most formidable trained fighters when it comes to real-world fist fights. In a boxer vs. karate expert fight, I would put money on the boxer every time, even if it's an informal fight with no rules or gloves. The reason is that, in 99% of my experiences, the winner of the fight is the person who can take being hit in the face without it effecting their ability to fight. Boxers get hit in the face all the time, in training and in boxing matches, they are used to it. I've seen so many people who were fast, skilled, and knew lots of theory about fighting, and they get in a fight and when their nose gets smashed or they get teeth knocked out, it's all over. They have never trained or sparred while suffering that kind of pain. The only time a person who can't take a punch wins a fight is if they get the first real hit in and the other guy can't take a punch either. This is the scenario I've seen in fights so many times:

Two guys are in each other's face, someone pushes someone or bumps someone and fists swing. Fighter A swings and makes a solid, audible connection with fighter B's face. If fighter B drops his guard and doesn't immediately hit back, it's over for him. If fighter B immediately swings back after that punch, I'm going to call it for him unless I know for a fact fighter A can take a punch too.

That's just fist fighting, though pain tolerance is going to be important in most kinds of fights with weapons too, and I have no experience in that kind of combat.

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

I think Loras Tyrell is a little bit overrated. Just because he's a perfect jouster, it doesn't mean he's very good in one-on-one combat. We never saw him in one. He's doesn't have muscles as his brother Garlan or Hound for example.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

The best fighter who's alive is Barristan Selmy in my opinion.

[Esa1996]

Yes they are but his skill with the sword is overrated he has good instincts but he just has to swing his behemoth sword in any direction and kill whatever is in his path thats not skill just brute strength which is still good but skill would be better in the long run so in my opinion he's overrated

We're talking about fighters, not who's the most skilled. Gregor, in terms of skill, is about equal with an average knight, possibly even slightly below due to him relying on his size and thus, possibly being lazy in training technique. His strength and reach however bring him up to the very top fighters.

My list in no particular order:

Aemon Targaryen

Arthur Dayne

Barristan

Daemon Blackfyre

Gregor Clegane

Jaime

Sandor Clegane

Most overrated?

Brienne, Bronn and Ned.

There are people who honestly think that Brienne is a better fighter than Jaime. There are also people who think that Bronn is a better fighter than Sandor. And there are the people who think that Ned is a better fighter than Jaime. Some of these "people" might well be only show watchers, but I can't remember everyone I've argued about them with.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Best fighter Arthur Dayne but he is with the exception of Rhaegar . It's easy to be the greatest with an unbreakable sword .

[Taenqyrhae]

There are people who honestly think that Brienne is a better fighter than Jaime. There are also people who think that Bronn is a better fighter than Sandor. And there are the people who think that Ned is a better fighter than Jaime. Some of these "people" might well be only show watchers, but I can't remember everyone I've argued about them with.

I agree that there's no textual support for the idea that Brienne is better than pre-hand loss Jaime, and there is textual support that Jaime was definitely better than Ned at fighting, but I don't see any textual support either way for Bronn vs. Sandor. They never fight each other, and they don't ever fight the same people as I recall, so whether Bronn is better or worse than Sandor is going to be opinion not based on anything GRRM specifically said but the reader's assumptions about the characters. If I'm forgetting a fight scene that either Bronn or Sandor loses in the series, I could be wrong, but from what I recall there would be no reason to be surprised if Bronn easily beat Sandor in a fight, or vice-versa.

[Sullen]

I think Loras Tyrell is a little bit overrated. Just because he's a perfect jouster, it doesn't mean he's very good in one-on-one combat. We never saw him in one. He's doesn't have muscles as his brother Garlan or Hound for example.

He came in second in Renly's melee at Bitterbridge, where he had to defeat the best of the Reach, the heart of Westerosi chivalry.

Also, GRRM put him in the same class of fighters as the Cleganes.

[Mal Malenkirk]

He came in second in Renly's melee at Bitterbridge, where he had to defeat the best of the Reach, the heart of Westerosi chivalry.

Also, GRRM put him in the same class of fighters as the Cleganes.

The very best never seems to fight in melees. Or at least they don't anymore once they get known as the very best!

Consider the Melee at the Tourney for the King's hand. Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, Sandor and Gregor Clegane were all at the tournament and jousted but none of them participated in the melee. It was won by Thoros against several lesser fighters. I guess it was the same at Renly's tourney. We don't hear about Garlan fighting in it and yet he was likely the very best fighter in the host.

And I know Jaime Lannister won one melee but that was early in his career and he didn't seem to participate anymore once his reputation was known.

It's Probably in part because if you walk into those things with a reputation, everyone will gang up on you.

[Strada]

Best:

Arthur Dayne

Barristan Selmy

Robert Baratheon

Aemon Targaryen

Daemon Blackfyre

Jaime Lannister

Overrated:

Ned Stark

Victarion Greyjoy

Strong Belwas

Gregor Clegane

Underrated:

Brienne Of Tarth

Not Mentioned Enough:

Oberyn Martell

Favourite Warrior:

Areo Hotah

[Esa1996]

I agree that there's no textual support for the idea that Brienne is better than pre-hand loss Jaime, and there is textual support that Jaime was definitely better than Ned at fighting, but I don't see any textual support either way for Bronn vs. Sandor. They never fight each other, and they don't ever fight the same people as I recall, so whether Bronn is better or worse than Sandor is going to be opinion not based on anything GRRM specifically said but the reader's assumptions about the characters. If I'm forgetting a fight scene that either Bronn or Sandor loses in the series, I could be wrong, but from what I recall there would be no reason to be surprised if Bronn easily beat Sandor in a fight, or vice-versa.

To be honest, there's not much to compare them with. What I base my opinion on is that Sandor is widely regarded as one of the best fighters on the continent, whereas Bronn is only known to a few. Also, Sandor fought Gregor to a standstill in AGOT to save Loras, whereas Bronn refuses to fight him for the promise of a castle and a lordship, and even admits to being scared of Gregor, in ASOS.

[Annara Snow]

I agree that there's no textual support for the idea that Brienne is better than pre-hand loss Jaime, and there is textual support that Jaime was definitely better than Ned at fighting, but I don't see any textual support either way for Bronn vs. Sandor. They never fight each other, and they don't ever fight the same people as I recall, so whether Bronn is better or worse than Sandor is going to be opinion not based on anything GRRM specifically said but the reader's assumptions about the characters. If I'm forgetting a fight scene that either Bronn or Sandor loses in the series, I could be wrong, but from what I recall there would be no reason to be surprised if Bronn easily beat Sandor in a fight, or vice-versa.

Is there any support for the idea that Sandor is not one of the best fighters in the realm, as he is considered, or that Bronn is one of the best fighters in the realm, despite not being considered that? The only fight we really see Bronn in is against Ser Vardis Egan, an aged knight of (presumably, since he's not renowned as a great fighter) average skill who (thanks to Lysa's stupidity) wasn't even fighting with his own sword, which is a considerable disadvantage, and Bronn still had to tire him down to beat him. It's not like Ser Vardis was the Mountain, so tiring him would be the only way to have a chance to kill him. There's no evidence at all that Bronn is an exceptional fighter, rather than simply a good one.

We never saw Bronn fighting the Mountain, or fighting Beric Dondarrion with his flaming sword, or even fighting multiple opponents (even if they are of average skill).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The board ate my post and died... I was forced to work without interruption!!!

[...]The only fight we really see Bronn in is against Ser Vardis Egan, an aged knight of (presumably, since he's not renowned as a great fighter) average skill who (thanks to Lysa's stupidity) wasn't even fighting with his own sword, which is a considerable disadvantage, and Bronn still had to tire him down to beat him. It's not like Ser Vardis was the Mountain, so tiring him would be the only way to have a chance to kill him. There's no evidence at all that Bronn is an exceptional fighter, rather than simply a good one.

Bronn is perceived as an exceptional fighter because he has been shown to be rather smart about how he faces his battles: he doesn't rush against his opponents, but analyses their weakness and strengths and that helps him to make up a good tactic.

But that's it. Even IRL (and specially in GRRMverse), knowing the way to your battle doesn't mean you will definitely win. Look at Oberyn, for instance: he knew how to defeat the Mountain and he failed any way. Bronn is the same. He definitely is better than many others, as he is observant and cautious, but that doesn't guarantee anything. It might give you some advantage, though. He could have probably "danced" around the Mountain in the same way Oberyn did and defeat him (he didn't want a confession out of him), but his chances of that working weren't good.

[Ser Greenseer]

Amazing:

- Arthur Dayne

- Barristan Selmy

- Jaime Lannister

Great:

- Robert Baratheon

- Oberyn Martell

- Sandor Clegane

- Gregor Clegane

- Loras Tyrell

- Garlan Tyrell

- Greatjon Umber

- Bronze Yohn Royce

- Jason Mallister

- Mance Rayder

- Rhaegar Targaryen

- Brandon Stark

- Areo Hotah

- Qhorin Halfhand

Good:

- Ned Stark

- Jorah Mormont

- Beric Dondarrion

- Jon Snow

- Brienne

- Randyll Tarly

- Victarion Greyjoy

- Balon Swann

- Iron Emmett

- Strong Belwas

- Daario Naharis

- Bronn

Average:

- Rangers in the Nights Watch

- Most unnamed knights and men at arms

- Most highborn warriors that aren't seen or mentioned to be really good.

- Most BwB

Bad:

- Samwell Tarly

[Lee-Sensei]

The best is debatable. There are a lot of options though. Jaime, Barristan, Arthur, Gregor, Sandor, Robert etc.. Ned and Jon are the most overrated I think. They're probably better than the average person, but pretty standard for the nobility.