yankee211 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Does anyone think ADWD prologue is the most important chapter of the series. Because there is some foreshowing with Varamyr when he talks about what not to do when warging into animals as well as his perspective on how many time he has died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Personally, I wouldn't call it the most important. It is very informative and necessary, I believe, to see what is happening with the other Wargs in the story. As to how many times Varamyr has died, those are only his skinchanged animals that died. Varamyr experienced those deaths but did not himself die. Well, except when his body actually died and Varamyr moved on to his wolf for his second life, so his conciousness is not dead yet. I am not sure where you were going with with the deaths, so I just threw that in there. As to the foreshadowing, are you speaking of Bran's own experience with skinchanging? For other posters that may stop by this thread who post on the ADWD forum, and for you also.... Varamyr is a warg. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankee211 Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share Posted November 14, 2014 Yes, pretty much bran experience as a skinchanger. I am worried that Bran is going to warg into summer or hodor long enough that he would forget who he is. And we don't know what Jon's fate will be, is he going to have his consciousness live in ghost. We will see when AWOW comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I S**t Gold Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I would say the sole reason for Varamyr is creative exposition. That's true of all the prologues. We learn something new we need to know later on and somebody dies. So I'd say no more important than the rest of the prologues. Maybe a pretty important chapter in Jon's arc, but that remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 There are so many key chapters it is hard to place any one on top, but I agree as to the ranking among the other prologues. No other POV has given us a first-person glimpse of what lies beyond death in GRRM's universe. Other POV's have died, but their POV's ended upon death (I'm thinking of Catelyn). In thinking about pivotal chapters, another that comes to mind is Bran's "falling dream" chapter. And not just because its in my signature LOL. It is another chapter where we find ourselves beyond life's typical existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 This Prologue is one hell of a chapter. I listen to the audiobooks, so I have no idea what the page count is, but I would bet that it is on par with the longest of ASOIAF chapters... I think that you are correct in thinking that Varamyr has an important role un the remaining books. If ASOIAF = The Matrix; Then Varamyr Six-Skins = John Smith (the Agent who screwed everything up)... The Reader was given a tremendous amount backstory on this character. Varamyr had dreamed of being the King Beyond the Wall - I think we will see this come to pass. Varamyr had longed to see the warm green lands Beyond the Wall - I think that Varamyr will in fact see the green lands beyond the wall... This was all pure foreshadowing. Going back to the ASOIAF = The Matrix Idea, it has just occurred to me that this is a very interesting parallel & the movies were released at such a time that they could have easily inspired GRRM)... In the Matrix::John Smith Assimilates / Merges With Neo (The One) & gains extraordinary powers that were not even thought to be possible inside the Matrix. ASOIF (Prediction)::Somehow (& I don't know how) Varamyr will find a means living on. He will somehow merge with Jon Snow, who will be residing in Ghost (the direwolf). This will Instantly provide Jon's Character Development with the Warging Training / Advanced Skills that he currently lacks. This will also wreak havoc upon Jon Snow's Moral / Ethical Code. Jon's Downfall will be a very sympathetic fall from the audience's viewpoint. & even though Jon will commit terrible atrocities, most readers will still like him. My views on this are often argued with at length, but Jon (who will take Hodor's Body) will begin to collect 'Skins' in the same way that Varamyr once did... The exception being that Jon will collect Human Skins, binding them to his will using his warging powers. Meanwhile, back at the wall:: Following Jon's Death, someone, probably Mel performs the same ceremony that MMD did upon Khal Drogo. Jon's Body os brought back to life, but just like The Khal, Jon Body is in a 'vegetable-like' state. Jon's living, breathing body will be thrown into an ice-cell where it will freeze & be forgotten about (probably for the remainder of TWOW. The significance of this resurrection is that Jon's consciousness will revert back to his 'First-Life', enabling him to take / possess other bodies & collect skins. At some point, probably in ADOS, Dany will reach the wall & find a blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall. She will perform an instinctive ritual just as a red comet appears on the horizon (like when she woke her dragons), & Azor Ahi will be reborn into Jon Snow's old body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankee211 Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 I like your view point, but what role does Melisandre play at the wall. She has an interest in Jon, one of the reasons she didn't go with Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I'm pretty sure that Mel has been placed there for the purpose of resurrecting Jon's body... Thus providing him with a loop-hole to re-enter his first life & jump from host to host without fear of dying... A Loop-hole that will allow him to see through the eyes of any or all of his skins whenever he wants (just a varamyr could do when he was running with his wolves)... If Mel Brings his Body back to life & it is thrown into the ice cells where his consciousness cannot access it (because GRRM said there was a very specific Plot Device related to the wall blocking warg communications), it will make Jon the most powerful character in the books, the downside is that he will never be inside of his original body again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankee211 Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 thats interesting, will you be surprise when AWOW comes out that the plot will be different from what you interpretated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Haggon told Varamyr that he would die a dozen deaths... Yet in the Prologue, Varamyr was 9 times dead & dying, which of course leaves us with two more deaths yet to come... If you interpret ' a dozen' to be a strict 12... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Mel knows Jon is a warg, right? She never says so, but she does let on that she knows of a connection between him and Ghost, and I'm sure someone filled her in on the warg part. Mel momentarily tampered with their connection once before. She also has her vision of a man, a wolf, a man again meaning Jon will most likely spend time in and as Ghost.Looking back to Varamyr, he tells us that he stole Haggon's wolf by forcing him out, leaving Haggon's without a second life. So I think it possible that something like this could happen to Jon. He could be pulled out of Ghost at a later time, and this is his 'get out of jail free' card that puts him back to normal. This is my view on it.But, here's a possible crack pot twist. Mel may try to influence the situation by 'helping' Jon in his dire needs. What if she screws it up and pushes Jon out of ghost, causing him to float on the winds like Varamyr did before he found One Eye?Or maybe Mel will screw it up by forcing out Ghost into Jon's body while Jon is in Ghost's. Then we get a crazy Jon body running about and silently snarling. Folks will think he lost his mind and lock him up tight while 'Ghost' hightails it away from the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 This Prologue is one hell of a chapter. I listen to the audiobooks, so I have no idea what the page count is, but I would bet that it is on par with the longest of ASOIAF chapters... I think that you are correct in thinking that Varamyr has an important role un the remaining books. If ASOIAF = The Matrix; Then Varamyr Six-Skins = John Smith (the Agent who screwed everything up)... The Reader was given a tremendous amount backstory on this character. Varamyr had dreamed of being the King Beyond the Wall - I think we will see this come to pass. Varamyr had longed to see the warm green lands Beyond the Wall - I think that Varamyr will in fact see the green lands beyond the wall... This was all pure foreshadowing. Going back to the ASOIAF = The Matrix Idea, it has just occurred to me that this is a very interesting parallel & the movies were released at such a time that they could have easily inspired GRRM)... In the Matrix:: John Smith Assimilates / Merges With Neo (The One) & gains extraordinary powers that were not even thought to be possible inside the Matrix. ASOIF (Prediction):: Somehow (& I don't know how) Varamyr will find a means living on. He will somehow merge with Jon Snow, who will be residing in Ghost (the direwolf). This will Instantly provide Jon's Character Development with the Warging Training / Advanced Skills that he currently lacks. This will also wreak havoc upon Jon Snow's Moral / Ethical Code. Jon's Downfall will be a very sympathetic fall from the audience's viewpoint. & even though Jon will commit terrible atrocities, most readers will still like him. My views on this are often argued with at length, but Jon (who will take Hodor's Body) will begin to collect 'Skins' in the same way that Varamyr once did... The exception being that Jon will collect Human Skins, binding them to his will using his warging powers. Meanwhile, back at the wall:: Following Jon's Death, someone, probably Mel performs the same ceremony that MMD did upon Khal Drogo. Jon's Body os brought back to life, but just like The Khal, Jon Body is in a 'vegetable-like' state. Jon's living, breathing body will be thrown into an ice-cell where it will freeze & be forgotten about (probably for the remainder of TWOW. The significance of this resurrection is that Jon's consciousness will revert back to his 'First-Life', enabling him to take / possess other bodies & collect skins. At some point, probably in ADOS, Dany will reach the wall & find a blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall. She will perform an instinctive ritual just as a red comet appears on the horizon (like when she woke her dragons), & Azor Ahi will be reborn into Jon Snow's old body. You forgot about the sinkhole. Tell us about the sinkhole! Also, how Deaddard and Khal Drogo's spirits will inhabit Jon Snow's body at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I see Varamyr as a potential greenseer. Even a couple of clues/hints."The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world."Then Varamyr's quick peek through the weirwood as he drifts about. If he had ate of the weirwood paste, he may have clung to the tree while only a part of him would have remained in One Eye. What other non-Stark warg or skinchanger has more than one animal under control? None that I recall. I think Varamyr had great potential, but not the opportunity. Abominations can be greenseers as Bran shows us.Varamyr did not take of the weirwood paste though, so wolf it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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