Should ASOS (Book3) have been done in one season?

[VictariousReturneth]

A Storm of Swords is my favorite book in the series. I'm wondering if the show was better off doing it in a single season. Yes I know they only get 10 episodes a year but maybe they could have settled on a split Season 3 airing the first half in one year and the second half the following. Each half would be 8 episodes. They did exactly this for Oz Season 4.

But if ASOS were to be done in a single season, how would you want it structured? Like what events would you have wanted happening in each episode? Tag your spoilers in case any unsullied are here. Thanks.

[Lars Penry]

I think so, they've stretched it too much, now they're having to cut a lot of characters and are probably going to be playing for time for the rest of the show. While I generally think a TV show should take it season by season, this is an adaptation, they are at a great advantage of having a ready made structure set for them, they know exactly where the show is heading years in advance. Obviously they should alter it for the medium but they don't seem to take full advantage in my opinion.

They should have extended the third season to thirteen episodes, given how big the show is for HBO, I think D& D could negotiate this. If not, they could have easily resolved ASOS early in season 4.

Across seasons three and four, they could have cut out so much filler, like:

• Cut out all of Theon's season 3 scenes
  
• Spread Bran scenes over season's 3 - 5 instead
  
• Trim Tyrion scenes - It seems like he has an inordinate amount of screen time to me, scenes like Pod's whores, Bronn's face off with Trant which has had no pay-off etc
  
• Cut out the whole Jon - Craster's ordeal along with Locke's mission to kill Jon
  
• Cut out Gilly's trip to Mole's Town and the Wildling's attack on it
  
• Trim the Hound and Arya - No need for this to run through all of season 4 in my opinion, this could have ended much earlier.
  
• Cut out Stannis' trip to Braavos
  
• Get rid of other pointless sex scenes
  

There has to be around 90 minutes of content just in these scenes. Get rid of them (along with others I'm no doubt forgetting) and you've probably got two episodes to spare. Suddenly there is plenty of room for the Greyjoy brothers and Arianne. If they'd done this I think they probably could have had ASOS 100% done by the end of season 3 or early season 4 and the prospect of a seven season show doing the books justice was more likely.

[Colonel Green]

They should have extended the third season to thirteen episodes, given how big the show is for HBO, I think D& D could negotiate this.

They've repeatedly said that they can't.

As to the OP, I think the ideal ASOS adaptation would consist of something in the area of a single season of 14-15 episodes. However, that was never on the table, so the writers had to decide how to dole out of the story with the consideration that it has to be delivered in 10-episode chunks, and with that structural reality, a single season for ASOS was never a realistic possibility.

By and large, I think their placement of the major dramatic moments in ASOS over the two seasons was correct, with the major exception being the decision to delay the Battle of the Wall until episode 4.09, a decision that ironically nullified the advantage that Jon seeming had in actually having enough book material that could (1) cover two good-sized seasonal arcs and (2) was positioned in such a way relative to everything else that it could actually be adapted over two seasons (compared to, say, Arya, who had to have a ton of stuff excised from her early ASOS chapters because structural requirements dictated that her arc line up with the Red Wedding, which left her with fumes to run on for Season 4).

Now, within the dramatic framework they set up I have many issues -- for instance, they should have been willing to accept that this structural split meant that King's Landing would be on the back burner in Season 3, and allocated more screentime to the storylines that would actually form the basis of the season's climax, such as Robb/Catelyn (the latter of whom essentially vanished until the Red Wedding) and Jon's time with the Wildlings, which was woefully underdeveloped.

[Lars Penry]

They've repeatedly said that they can't.

I think they might have been able to for just one season given what an immense hit GOT is for HBO. This isn't predicated on anything and isn't a complaint. As I continued, barring that, they could just as easily have finished it in early season 4.

[Colonel Green]

As I continued, barring that, they could just as easily have finished it in early season 4.

That I don't agree with. Each season is meant to have a clear arc, beginning to end. For most of the characters, the ASOS end-points serve as far better season endings than anything that could be scraped together from, what, the first few hundred pages of AFFC and ADWD? It makes far more sense to open season 5 with Arya arriving in Braavos, rather than have her go there halfway through season 4, for instance.

[Dragon in the North]

I think they might have been able to for just one season given what an immense hit GOT is for HBO. This isn't predicated on anything and isn't a complaint. As I continued, barring that, they could just as easily have finished it in early season 4.

It's not a cost issue. It's that they don't have the time to do more than ten episodes per season given the scope of the project. And Colonel Green echoes my thoughts on your second suggestion.

[MakeThemBurn]

Yes. They could easily have started doing some of the plot lines from book 3 in season 2. (Let's be honest here, the first half of Clash of Kings is mostly fluff and so is the second season). But instead, they chose to have the attack on King's Landing as the season 2 highlight so they kept dragging on the story and now they're going to have to cut a lot of stuff from books 6+. Considering how many eunuch jokes and sexploitation scenes we've seen, it's not like there was no room for more editing. So now books 1-3 took 4 seasons and books 4-7/8/9 will have only 3. Weird choice imo.

[Dragon in the North]

Yes. They could easily have started doing some of the plot lines from book 3 in season 2. (Let's be honest here, the first half of Clash of Kings is mostly fluff and so is the second season). But instead, they chose to have the attack on King's Landing as the season 2 highlight so they kept dragging on the story and now they're going to have to cut a lot of stuff from books 6+. Considering how many eunuch jokes and sexploitation scenes we've seen, it's not like there was no room for more editing. So now books 1-3 took 4 seasons and books 4-7/8/9 will have only 3. Weird choice imo.

Books 4 and 5 have more fluff in them than Book 2, so it's not that weird of a choice.

[Colonel Green]

Yes. They could easily have started doing some of the plot lines from book 3 in season 2. (Let's be honest here, the first half of Clash of Kings is mostly fluff and so is the second season).

ACOK is the weakest of the first three books, but the first half is certainly not fluff, and it would have incredibly unsatisfying to try to squeeze into the first half of a season.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes.

But they said they couldn't...

Make it so. For a pair of men who claim themselves fans, they're terrible negotiators.

[Colonel Green]

Make it so. For a pair of men who claim themselves fans, they're terrible negotiators.

What does them being fans have to do with production realities?

[YoungGriff89]

Maybe there are more interviews where they go into more detail, but I haven't read or seen a video interview where D&D or GRRM have said HBO absolutely won't let them do longer seasons. Look at Entourage, season 3 was split into two parts like you described and it was I think 22 episodes once it was all said and done, and True Blood's first few seasons were 12 or 13 episodes. Everything I've read is more about the shooting and post production schedule. They struggle to get ten episodes done a year, it's logistics primarily it isn't because they think ten episodes are best. I don't think Storm of Swords should have been done in just one season, but I do think the storylines to ASOS should have been all wrapped around the same time not Dany in episode 5, Sansa in episode 7, Tyrion and Arya in 10, Jon and Sam not even this season, Bran in season three, etc. If they were going to do the 10 episode season 3 and 10 episode season four to cover ASOS they should have stopped season three no later than the events of chapter 45 or 46.

There's a mini finale in the book around that time: Dany taking Yunkai, Sam killing the White Walker, Jaime fighting the bear, Arya meeting the hound, Bran meeting Sam, Sansa and Tyrion's wedding, Catelyn and Robb arranging Edmure's wedding, Tyrion meeting Oberyn, Jon escaping the wildlings, etc. I personally think forcing the red wedding to be the climax of season three was a bad move, they should have had the taking of Yunkai be an entire episode where we actually saw the battle. Just my opinion though, seasons three and four are what they are and I still liked them (for the most part).

[oprahnoodlemantra]

Some of it should have been in season 2, especially Robb's storyline.

[Annara Snow]

Well, personally I think AGOT is the weakest of the first three books.

I don't think they could have done ASOS in one season. I think that the overall idea to stretch it into two seasons with the addition of a lot of AFFC/ADWD material for some characters, was good. But the problem was what they chose to focus on. I agree that season 3 should have focused more on Cat and Robb and on Jon with the wildlings - and not just Ygritte, but showing us more about their culture; and with far less screentime for King's Landing, which should have had the Sansa/Tyrion wedding story be focused and dramatic, instead of stretched out and watered down, and without all the pointless fluff - be it bad dudebro jokes about Pod, bad jokes about Loras being a gay stereotype, gratuitous brothel scenes, or gratuitous scenes of people randomly bitching and snarking at each other.

[sj4iy]

No. I think two season was needed to capture everything they wanted to capture. I didn't always agree with everything they've done, but I don't go in for the 'time trade-offs' that some people around here do. I don't say "Well, if they hadn't done this thing I didn't like, they would have had more time for something I did like!" I judge what we get...I don't judge what we didn't.

I thought season 3 and season 4 had some padding, but they do have very clearly defined arcs. I think breaking those arcs up would have been detrimental to the storytelling of each season. We see what happened when Martin broke up the arcs for book 4 into two books...the story really suffered. Now we get to see what happens when 2 books are combined in one season.

[MakeThemBurn]

ACOK is the weakest of the first three books, but the first half is certainly not fluff, and it would have incredibly unsatisfying to try to squeeze into the first half of a season.

The thing is, unsatisfying squeezing is inevitable. Now it's the latter books they have to cut instead of the early ones.

I personally can not see how GRRM could make this into a 7 book series as he claims, (eight or even nine being far more realistic) and the last books are going to be huge even by his standards. It's easy to say "thank God they didn't squeeze too much" now that we've read and learned to love the early books but I'm certain people will change their minds once all the books are out and they realise what a sloppy job was done with the last books. They chose to be kinder to the early books which means more cutting towards the end and this choice came out to be because of convenience. It's far easier to make a season out of a book than out of unreleased transcripts and conversations with the author. I do understand why this is happening but I still don't agree with it.

[VictariousReturneth]

The thing is, unsatisfying squeezing is inevitable. Now it's the latter books they have to cut instead of the early ones.

I personally can not see how GRRM could make this into a 7 book series as he claims, (eight or even nine being far more realistic) and the last books are going to be huge even by his standards. It's easy to say "thank God they didn't squeeze too much" now that we've read and learned to love the early books but I'm certain people will change their minds once all the books are out and they realise what a sloppy job was done with the last books. They chose to be kinder to the early books which means more cutting towards the end and this choice came out to be because of convenience. It's far easier to make a season out of a book than out of unreleased transcripts and conversations with the author. I do understand why this is happening but I still don't agree with it.

I'm sorry but I don't get why you are assuming there will have to be 9 books? Yes I know there wasn't much plot progression in 4+5 and GRRM may have hinted at an 8th, but stop pulling 9 out of nowhere. Clearly we don't know at this point if 9 is necessary so why bring it up?

And similar to what you said, it's not like D&D have much of a choice with this adaptation. The early books are not only complete, but are the majority of the series' best material so of course they are going to devote 3-4 seasons to them. And book 6 is barely halfway done if Liam is to be believed, so of course they won't be able to devote that many episodes to book 6, 7, and possibly an 8th.

Broad strokes will only get you so far.... they won't have the rich detail of GRRM's books and all the subplots ready in time. If GRRM won't even finish book 6 by the time they get to working on Season 6 then you can bet they will not have enough material for so many seasons.

They are not 'cutting' material from the future books, they simply won't have too much to go on. They say 8 seasons maximum. My guess is maybe Season 6 based on the broad strokes of book 6, Season 7 on book 7, and Season 8 on book 8 (if need be). But they are leaning towards 7 seasons, and GRRM is still leaning towards 7 books. I'm not sure why everyone keeps assuming George has 5+ more books to write or that Season 6 and 7 will only be based on book 6 or something. Seems like a lot of the people speculating about this series refuse to use logic. I'm not referring to you personally, but I've just noticed it with others.

So yeah, broad strokes, it's all they have to go on from here on out besides a large chunk of book 6 manuscripts. No 'cutting' or 'cramming' is being done for the [unpublished] books. Books 4 and 5 on the other hand, yes.

[VictariousReturneth]

There's a mini finale in the book around that time: Dany taking Yunkai, Sam killing the White Walker, Jaime fighting the bear, Arya meeting the hound, Bran meeting Sam, Sansa and Tyrion's wedding, Catelyn and Robb arranging Edmure's wedding, Tyrion meeting Oberyn, Jon escaping the wildlings, etc. I personally think forcing the red wedding to be the climax of season three was a bad move, they should have had the taking of Yunkai be an entire episode where we actually saw the battle. Just my opinion though, seasons three and four are what they are and I still liked them (for the most part).

Yikes, sorry I don't agree.

For one, they could have done this;

* Cut some King's Landing scenes for sure

* Leave Theon's scenes from Episode 2, 3 and 4 intact, then cut back to his story in Episode 10.

Have Episode 2 be him getting tortured. 3 is the escape attempt, 4 is being trolled by Ramsay, and in 10 we get the Reek identity and a subtle hint that Theon lost his cock (no blatant castration scene is necessary). Keeps it short, simple, and to the point. No gratuity or filler there and in each episode something different would be happening.

* Devote more screen-time to Jon and Robb's storylines which were the two that mattered most.

Can't think of too much else as it's been a while since I've seen Season 3.

Battle of Yunkai is a terrible plot to devote a whole episode to. The Yunkai antagonists in Dany's storyline are not interesting. And then she takes Meereen after it anyway? A whole Yunkai episode right after Dany already took another city early in the season? Very repetitive and not a satisfying bottle episode. Battle of Meereen (which they probably won't do at all in the show) is also a boring battle since we know she will win and the antagonists aren't that interesting in it either, but at least it potentially ends her entire Essos arc while Yunkai does nothing but get her thousands of slaves.

The Red Wedding was the right choice for the climax. The show was youthful enough at the time for people not to notice the episode 9 pattern, and everybody expected Robb's storyline to end with a legitimate battle so the wedding massacre came out of nowhere and as a huge shock. The pacing was right for it, the storyline just needed more scenes.

[Lars Penry]

That I don't agree with. Each season is meant to have a clear arc, beginning to end. For most of the characters, the ASOS end-points serve as far better season endings than anything that could be scraped together from, what, the first few hundred pages of AFFC and ADWD? It makes far more sense to open season 5 with Arya arriving in Braavos, rather than have her go there halfway through season 4, for instance.

While I agree each season should generally have a distinct arc, this is the time where you would take liberties with the story, not by cutting characters out, adding filler and stretching the material. You might have Arya's season 4 arc ending with her first mission in Braavos rather than arriving their, Jon's ending with him sending Sam to Oldtown, Tyrion being captured by slavers etc. There are clear benchmarks within the story that they could have utilised that serve just as well in my opinion as opposed to what they did. Even people who I know that haven't read the books commented on how season 4 seemed very off track, their solution didn't exactly come out with a clean arc either in my opinion.

[Colonel Green]

Even people who I know that haven't read the books commented on how season 4 seemed very off track, their solution didn't exactly come out with a clean arc either in my opinion.

From what I saw, Unsullied viewers generally thought the fourth was one of the best yet, so I don't think it could be considered "off-track". Jon's story was definitely plate-spinning until episode 9, and you could make the case for Arya's story in some ways also doing that, but the Arya/Hound dynamic was popular so it didn't draw many complaints.