Attacks in Winterfell

[yankee211]

In one of Theon's chapters, one of the spear wives stated that they have been killing Bolton's men. But there were specific killings of one of Ramsey's companions in which one of the spear wives told Theon it wasn't their work (correct me if I am wrong). Do anyone thinks that there is another infiltrator inside Winterfell.

[Whitering]

In one of Theon's chapters, one of the spear wives stated that they have been killing Bolton's men. But there were specific killings of one of Ramsey's companions in which one of the spear wives told Theon it wasn't their work (correct me if I am wrong). Do anyone thinks that there is another infiltrator inside Winterfell.

There is the hooded man that confronted Theon at one point. There is plenty of speculation, however, it was a young Frey that died right? Could be anyone really.

[yankee211]

Yes, I believed both little and big Walda.The hooded man, I don't remember but that is interesting.

[bemused]

The spearwives never , at any time confess to any of the killings. The closest they come to it is when Theon mentions the death of Yellow Dick, Rowan says he was "a pig of a man."

In that same chapter we have Theon thinking that the spearwives wouldn't believe his claim to not be a kinslayer, any more than he believes them about the other killings, particularly Little Walder's . It's when Little Walder's body is brought into the hall that Theon looks at Rowan and she says "This was no work of ours."

[Jez Targaryen]

I don't remember the context surrounding Little Walder's death, but when I read it I thought that Roose orchestrated it.... can't remember why though. Who did they pin the blame on?

[Lord Ross]

What about Manderly? I'm inclined to believe he was telling the truth when he professed his loyalty to the Starks in Davo's POV

[The Dragon has three heads]

What about Manderly? I'm inclined to believe he was telling the truth when he professed his loyalty to the Starks in Davo's POV

He is absolutely loyal to the Starks, however I would imagine he also smuggled in a 'night' worker.-read spy/assassin etc

Because as lady Dustin says 'night work is not knight work'.

In before ZOMG GUIZE THE HOODED MAN IS BENJIN STARK.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I believe walder killed walder. (big or little) I get confused.

[Buried Treasure]

Theon went from not having any clue who the killer was to thinking about the spearwives being killers and suspecting that one of them had been responsible for the next killing (Walder).

So there is an implication that they told him they had done the other killings, otherwise upon learning of Walder's death he would have been still wondering who the 'Ghost' that had been doing the killings was. It is just not definite because we didn't see exactly what they told him.

[bemused]

Well there are a few different takes on this.. but I, for one, don't think it's implied that the spearwives confessed anything to Theon... just as it's never implied that he tells them outright that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon

He

specifically recalls keeping this secret in the TWoW Theon chapter.

He figures they wouldn't believe him whatever he said , just as he wouldn't believe their denial , if they made one. On top of that, I don't think there's any advantage to the spearwives (or Mance) in sowing dissention inside WF. That only creates more watchfulness and suspicion ( it certainly has in Theon) and as we see, ultimately makes them have to alter their plan. They obviously hoped to be acting under cover of darkness ( "Arya" generally bathed in the evening ) .The tension boiling over when it did only made executing their plan more dangerous.

The following is all from "A Ghost in Winterfell"

Here's the first victim... a man-at-arms of four-and-forty years who had marched north with Roger Ryswell. “A drunk,” Ryswell declared. “Pissing off the wall, I’ll wager. He slipped and fell.” No one disagreed. But Theon Greyjoy found himself wondering why any man would climb the snow-slick steps to the battlements in the black of night just to take a piss.

Theon is right to wonder, but no-one disagrees because Roger Rysewell knows the man to be a drunk ...and even if he has a slight suspicion , if Roger's with the GNC, he doesn't want anything rocking the boat, for now.

Next we have...The next morning Ser Aenys Frey’s grizzled squire was found naked and dead of exposure in the old castle lichyard, his face so obscured by hoarfrost that he appeared to be wearing a mask. Ser Aenys put it forth that the man had drunk too much and gotten lost in the storm, though no one could explain why he had taken off his clothes to go outside. Another drunkard, Theon thought. Wine could drown a host of suspicions.

Then, before the day was done, a crossbowman sworn to the Flints turned up in the stables with a broken skull. Kicked by a horse, Lord Ramsay declared. A club, more like, Theon decided.

Theon has good reason to be suspicious, and he thinks..

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had

changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak.

Here, "sneak" refers to Ramsay, when he was Reek. (At that time, back in ACoK, Theon came to realise that Ramsay was killing off Theon's own men who knew about the miller's boys.)..And at this juncture...

The deaths set Roose Bolton’s lords to quarreling openly in the Great Hall. Some were running

short of patience. “How long must we sit here waiting for this king who never comes?” Ser Hosteen Frey demanded. “We should take the fight to Stannis and make an end to him.”

Since Barrowton, Ramsay always wanted to take the fight to Stannis and resented having to do things Roose's way , now he has others falling into line with his thinking, causing friction.

Following this , the Stables collapse (which could actually be due to the snow... or not)... Lord Bolton appeared briefly in the outer ward to inspect the scene, then ordered the remaining horses brought inside, along with the mounts still tethered in the outer ward. And no sooner had the men finished digging out the dead men and butchering the horses than another corpse was found. .... Yellow Dick. ( We'll skip the gruesome details, for now. )

“Burn the body,” Roose Bolton ordered, “and see that you do not speak of this. I’ll not have this tale spread.”

The tale spread nonetheless. By midday most of Winterfell had heard, many from the lips of Ramsay Bolton, whose “boy” Yellow Dick had been.“When we find the man who did this,” Lord Ramsay promised, “I will flay the skin off him, cook it crisp as crackling, and make him eat it, every bite.” Word went out that the killer’s name would be worth a golden dragon.

Why would Ramsay kill YD? Betrayal. We know from Roose's own lips that all Ramsay's men are really Roose's men. Roose is not pleased with Ramsay's treatment of "Arya"...

“The bride weeps,”... ...“Roose is not pleased. Tell your bastard that.” ,Barbrey tells Theon when he takes her to the crypts. That's an attempt to send a message from Roose , through Barbrey ,through Theon to Ramsay. ...I would bet the message was important enough to have been sent by other messengers, as well ..and if Theon might suspect Ramsay of the killings... so might Roose. (Ramsay would have told Roose what went down when he took Winterfell and how he brought it about. He's proud of his achievements.) If so, a message might have been sent about the killings , too ...Roose can see the rage that was visited on Yellow Dick... and now, Ramsay disobeys Roose's direct order by talking up YD's death .. continuing to spread disention.

GRRM gives us two more subtle clues - one in the connection between YD's body, with it's penis in it's mouth and Ramsay's promised treatment of the killer.. to make him eat his own flayed skin ... and one more in describing the smell in the great hall... The reek within the Great Hall was palpable by eventide. ...he could easily have used say, "stench" or "miasma" , or found another way to express it, but I think he wants us to connect reek with "Reek" ... and not with Theon/Reek who we know is not guilty. He tells us that the aura or atmosphere is palpable..it can be sensed ..almost felt. As soon as he got a chance, " Theon fled quickly,"... as he would like to flee Ramsay.

But now, probably because he's so used to YD being Ramsay's right hand man, Theon doesn't make the connection( though I think we should). ... He meets the Hooded Man , and begins to second guess himself ... wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick’s cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell’s groom off the battlements.

Still later the same evening, Theon is interrogated. Aenys Frey suggests he could be the killer because he can still hold a dagger, but... “These dead were all strong men,” said Roger Ryswell, “and none of them were stabbed. The turncloak’s not our killer.”

Next, Frey tries to blame Manderly, but Barbrey Dustin responds.. “And Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers..." ... a further real example connecting Ramsay with forcing a person to self-devour .

In spite of Roger Ryswell pointing out none of the victims had been stabbed, Theon begins to focus on cutting weapons.. Roose Bolton’s pale eyes were fixed on Theon, as sharp as Skinner’s flaying knife. ... and... He wondered if Lady Dustin had told them about the crypts, the missing swords.

He walks. The horns and drums begin. He begins to wish ... Theon wondered if he might be allowed to fight. Then at least he might die a man’s death, sword in hand. ... and later that night, in the godswood he prays ... “Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.”

The spearwives come to take him to Abel and overhear him. They mock him..

“I told you. I want to touch you, turncloak.” Holly smiled. In her hand a blade appeared. ...

... ... “Touch me,” he said. “Kill me.” There was more despair than defiance in his voice. “Go on. Do me, the way you did the others. Yellow Dick and the rest. It was you.”

Holly laughed. “How could it be us? We’re women. Teats and cunnies. Here to be fucked, not feared.”

Rowan adds... “Did the Bastard hurt you?” Rowan asked. “Chopped off your fingers, did he? Skinned your widdle toes? Knocked your teeth out? Poor lad.” She patted his cheek. “There will be no more o’ that, I promise. You prayed, and the gods sent us. You want to die as Theon? We’ll give you that. A nice quick death, ’twill hardly hurt at all.” She smiled. “But not till you’ve sung for Abel. He’s waiting for you.” ... She is the most openly antagonistic toward Theon and calls Ned "Lord Eddard", while calling Theon "kinslayer" .. but however much she hates him, his life or death is not up to her. "Abel" is calling the shots.

Theon never considers them as the killer(s) until he sees the blade in in Holly's hand, yet we know the other deaths were not by stabbing or cutting. Cut wounds only come in with yellow Dick , and we don't know if that was what killed him, or if it was done after killing him. Looking back at his killing...

This one could not be waved away as some drunken tumble or the kick of a horse. The dead

man was one of Ramsay’s favorites, the squat, scrofulous, ill-favored man-at-arms called Yellow Dick. Whether his dick had actually been yellow was hard to determine, as someone had sliced it off and stuffed it into his mouth so forcefully they had broken three of his teeth. When the cooks found him outside the kitchens, buried up to his neck in a snowdrift, both dick and man were blue from cold.

This is the only cutting or stabbing wound that is ever mentioned until we get to Little Walder. There's not even any mention of blood at the scene.

We don't see the conversation between Theon , Mance and the spearwives, but I see no reason why they would confess to him , and I see no reason why Mance would have them engage in the killings.. We've seen at least a part of what it costs them to have to try to escape in the chaos the killings have helped to create. I think Mance is smarter than that and would have preferred to act in relative quiet.

Theon had already made up his mind in the godswood, perhaps partly in wishful thinking . They find him when he's despairing that he will probably have to die as Reek ... and he apparently has exacted a promise from Mance that they will kill him rather than let him fall back into Ramsay's hands.

Little Walder's death is an outlier. Here a cutting weapon ( or weapons) is used and he is said to have been "butchered" ( throat cut?) Big Walder is covered in blood . Without dissecting it fully, I think it was Big Walder, directed by Roose . ( Little Walder was on his way to becoming one of Ramsays favourite "boys" .. and he was not Roose's man.)

[alienarea]

Well there are a few different takes on this.. but I, for one, don't think it's implied that the spearwives confessed anything to Theon... just as it's never implied that he tells them outright that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon

He

specifically recalls keeping this secret in the TWoW Theon chapter.

He figures they wouldn't believe him whatever he said , just as he wouldn't believe their denial , if they made one. On top of that, I don't think there's any advantage to the spearwives (or Mance) in sowing dissention inside WF. That only creates more watchfulness and suspicion ( it certainly has in Theon) and as we see, ultimately makes them have to alter their plan. They obviously hoped to be acting under cover of darkness ( "Arya" generally bathed in the evening ) .The tension boiling over when it did only made executing their plan more dangerous.

The following is all from "A Ghost in Winterfell"

Here's the first victim... a man-at-arms of four-and-forty years who had marched north with Roger Ryswell. “A drunk,” Ryswell declared. “Pissing off the wall, I’ll wager. He slipped and fell.” No one disagreed. But Theon Greyjoy found himself wondering why any man would climb the snow-slick steps to the battlements in the black of night just to take a piss.

Theon is right to wonder, but no-one disagrees because Roger Rysewell knows the man to be a drunk ...and even if he has a slight suspicion , if Roger's with the GNC, he doesn't want anything rocking the boat, for now.

Next we have...The next morning Ser Aenys Frey’s grizzled squire was found naked and dead of exposure in the old castle lichyard, his face so obscured by hoarfrost that he appeared to be wearing a mask. Ser Aenys put it forth that the man had drunk too much and gotten lost in the storm, though no one could explain why he had taken off his clothes to go outside. Another drunkard, Theon thought. Wine could drown a host of suspicions.

Then, before the day was done, a crossbowman sworn to the Flints turned up in the stables with a broken skull. Kicked by a horse, Lord Ramsay declared. A club, more like, Theon decided.

Theon has good reason to be suspicious, and he thinks..

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had

changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak.

Here, "sneak" refers to Ramsay, when he was Reek. (At that time, back in ACoK, Theon came to realise that Ramsay was killing off Theon's own men who knew about the miller's boys.)..And at this juncture...

The deaths set Roose Bolton’s lords to quarreling openly in the Great Hall. Some were running

short of patience. “How long must we sit here waiting for this king who never comes?” Ser Hosteen Frey demanded. “We should take the fight to Stannis and make an end to him.”

Since Barrowton, Ramsay always wanted to take the fight to Stannis and resented having to do things Roose's way , now he has others falling into line with his thinking, causing friction.

Following this , the Stables collapse (which could actually be due to the snow... or not)... Lord Bolton appeared briefly in the outer ward to inspect the scene, then ordered the remaining horses brought inside, along with the mounts still tethered in the outer ward. And no sooner had the men finished digging out the dead men and butchering the horses than another corpse was found. .... Yellow Dick. ( We'll skip the gruesome details, for now. )

“Burn the body,” Roose Bolton ordered, “and see that you do not speak of this. I’ll not have this tale spread.”

The tale spread nonetheless. By midday most of Winterfell had heard, many from the lips of Ramsay Bolton, whose “boy” Yellow Dick had been.“When we find the man who did this,” Lord Ramsay promised, “I will flay the skin off him, cook it crisp as crackling, and make him eat it, every bite.” Word went out that the killer’s name would be worth a golden dragon.

Why would Ramsay kill YD? Betrayal. We know from Roose's own lips that all Ramsay's men are really Roose's men. Roose is not pleased with Ramsay's treatment of "Arya"...

“The bride weeps,”... ...“Roose is not pleased. Tell your bastard that.” ,Barbrey tells Theon when he takes her to the crypts. That's an attempt to send a message from Roose , through Barbrey ,through Theon to Ramsay. ...I would bet the message was important enough to have been sent by other messengers, as well ..and if Theon might suspect Ramsay of the killings... so might Roose. (Ramsay would have told Roose what went down when he took Winterfell and how he brought it about. He's proud of his achievements.) If so, a message might have been sent about the killings , too ...Roose can see the rage that was visited on Yellow Dick... and now, Ramsay disobeys Roose's direct order by talking up YD's death .. continuing to spread disention.

GRRM gives us two more subtle clues - one in the connection between YD's body, with it's penis in it's mouth and Ramsay's promised treatment of the killer.. to make him eat his own flayed skin ... and one more in describing the smell in the great hall... The reek within the Great Hall was palpable by eventide. ...he could easily have used say, "stench" or "miasma" , or found another way to express it, but I think he wants us to connect reek with "Reek" ... and not with Theon/Reek who we know is not guilty. He tells us that the aura or atmosphere is palpable..it can be sensed ..almost felt. As soon as he got a chance, " Theon fled quickly,"... as he would like to flee Ramsay.

But now, probably because he's so used to YD being Ramsay's right hand man, Theon doesn't make the connection( though I think we should). ... He meets the Hooded Man , and begins to second guess himself ... wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick’s cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell’s groom off the battlements.

Still later the same evening, Theon is interrogated. Aenys Frey suggests he could be the killer because he can still hold a dagger, but... “These dead were all strong men,” said Roger Ryswell, “and none of them were stabbed. The turncloak’s not our killer.”

Next, Frey tries to blame Manderly, but Barbrey Dustin responds.. “And Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers..." ... a further real example connecting Ramsay with forcing a person to self-devour .

In spite of Roger Ryswell pointing out none of the victims had been stabbed, Theon begins to focus on cutting weapons.. Roose Bolton’s pale eyes were fixed on Theon, as sharp as Skinner’s flaying knife. ... and... He wondered if Lady Dustin had told them about the crypts, the missing swords.

He walks. The horns and drums begin. He begins to wish ... Theon wondered if he might be allowed to fight. Then at least he might die a man’s death, sword in hand. ... and later that night, in the godswood he prays ... “Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.”

The spearwives come to take him to Abel and overhear him. They mock him..

“I told you. I want to touch you, turncloak.” Holly smiled. In her hand a blade appeared. ...

... ... “Touch me,” he said. “Kill me.” There was more despair than defiance in his voice. “Go on. Do me, the way you did the others. Yellow Dick and the rest. It was you.”

Holly laughed. “How could it be us? We’re women. Teats and cunnies. Here to be fucked, not feared.”

Rowan adds... “Did the Bastard hurt you?” Rowan asked. “Chopped off your fingers, did he? Skinned your widdle toes? Knocked your teeth out? Poor lad.” She patted his cheek. “There will be no more o’ that, I promise. You prayed, and the gods sent us. You want to die as Theon? We’ll give you that. A nice quick death, ’twill hardly hurt at all.” She smiled. “But not till you’ve sung for Abel. He’s waiting for you.” ... She is the most openly antagonistic toward Theon and calls Ned "Lord Eddard", while calling Theon "kinslayer" .. but however much she hates him, his life or death is not up to her. "Abel" is calling the shots.

Theon never considers them as the killer(s) until he sees the blade in in Holly's hand, yet we know the other deaths were not by stabbing or cutting. Cut wounds only come in with yellow Dick , and we don't know if that was what killed him, or if it was done after killing him. Looking back at his killing...

This one could not be waved away as some drunken tumble or the kick of a horse. The dead

man was one of Ramsay’s favorites, the squat, scrofulous, ill-favored man-at-arms called Yellow Dick. Whether his dick had actually been yellow was hard to determine, as someone had sliced it off and stuffed it into his mouth so forcefully they had broken three of his teeth. When the cooks found him outside the kitchens, buried up to his neck in a snowdrift, both dick and man were blue from cold.

This is the only cutting or stabbing wound that is ever mentioned until we get to Little Walder. There's not even any mention of blood at the scene.

We don't see the conversation between Theon , Mance and the spearwives, but I see no reason why they would confess to him , and I see no reason why Mance would have them engage in the killings.. We've seen at least a part of what it costs them to have to try to escape in the chaos the killings have helped to create. I think Mance is smarter than that and would have preferred to act in relative quiet.

Theon had already made up his mind in the godswood, perhaps partly in wishful thinking . They find him when he's despairing that he will probably have to die as Reek ... and he apparently has exacted a promise from Mance that they will kill him rather than let him fall back into Ramsay's hands.

Little Walder's death is an outlier. Here a cutting weapon ( or weapons) is used and he is said to have been "butchered" ( throat cut?) Big Walder is covered in blood . Without dissecting it fully, I think it was Big Walder, directed by Roose . ( Little Walder was on his way to becoming one of Ramsays favourite "boys" .. and he was not Roose's man.)

With you so far.

Now two observations

1) if this is the beginning of Roose vs Ramsay, and the Pink Letter is the aftermath (assuming it was written by Ramsay, with part sof it true as Jon Snow assumes, and parts guesswork), then Roose has been taken care off and we miss a middle piece

2) most of us located the Hooded Man in the Stark camp. However, he might not care for the Starks but to get rid off the Boltons, sowing mistrust and putting them against each other. And someone who would have an interest in this is Littlefinger, as he has plans for Sansa. So the Hooded Man might be working for him? That might link back to AGoT and the assassination attempt on Bran. We are made to believe that was Joffrey's idea, but really?

Lothor Brune for Hooded Man 2015

[bemused]

With you so far.

Now two observations

1) if this is the beginning of Roose vs Ramsay, and the Pink Letter is the aftermath (assuming it was written by Ramsay, with part sof it true as Jon Snow assumes, and parts guesswork), then Roose has been taken care off and we miss a middle piece

2) most of us located the Hooded Man in the Stark camp. However, he might not care for the Starks but to get rid off the Boltons, sowing mistrust and putting them against each other. And someone who would have an interest in this is Littlefinger, as he has plans for Sansa. So the Hooded Man might be working for him? That might link back to AGoT and the assassination attempt on Bran. We are made to believe that was Joffrey's idea, but really?

Lothor Brune for Hooded Man 2015

I'm hoping Lothor will leave Littlefinger before he meets a nasty end. I somehow feel he has good instincts. ( But that's an aside.) ... Looking at your observations..

1) This will be difficult for us to discuss , because I don't think Ramsay wrote the letter. I think Stannis wrote some form of it, which was then altered at the wall by Thorne, Marsh &co before being delivered to Jon. So it contains some truth and some nasty B.S. additions. ...The conspirators wouldn't change what Stannis wrote ( they couldn't know what was true), they'd just tack on their own wishes and multiple insults. .. I know, I know, not many think Thorne is present , but I do.. I'm really quite convinced of it. ..If that turns out to be wrong ,I'll take double helpings of humble pie ( just so long as it doesn't come from Manderly's kitchen) .. ;) .. Who knows ,GRRM could say or write something tomorrow to shoot the idea down, but in the meantime , I think the signs are there.

This would leave lots of possibilities still open for future fun with Roose , and would mean that Ramsay is truly on his way to Castle Black.

2) This is intriguing, because I'm sure Littlefinger would take an interest.. I'm just not sure he can be that well informed on what's going on in WF, and I do feel that the HM would have to have some familiarity with the castle to even get in. Can Littlefinger even have had personal contact with anyone there ? E.g., was he in KL when Steelshanks was there to get "Arya" ?

If he could get anyone in , I could see him playing "divide and conquer " with the Boltons, but I haven't noticed any connections being made, so far.

For now, I'm sticking with Benjen , because I can see how and why he could / would have got there , and how he would be the ideal person to bring the various components of the GNC together.

I won't go on at length here, but I feel there has to be much, much more to the crypts - including an escape route that needs a Stark to find it and open it ( like the Black Gate and brothers of the NW).

[ThunderG]

I'm hoping Lothor will leave Littlefinger before he meets a nasty end. I somehow feel he has good instincts. ( But that's an aside.) ... Looking at your observations..

1) This will be difficult for us to discuss , because I don't think Ramsay wrote the letter. I think Stannis wrote some form of it, which was then altered at the wall by Thorne, Marsh &co before being delivered to Jon. So it contains some truth and some nasty B.S. additions. ...The conspirators wouldn't change what Stannis wrote ( they couldn't know what was true), they'd just tack on their own wishes and multiple insults. .. I know, I know, not many think Thorne is present , but I do.. I'm really quite convinced of it. ..If that turns out to be wrong ,I'll take double helpings of humble pie ( just so long as it doesn't come from Manderly's kitchen) .. ;) .. Who knows ,GRRM could say or write something tomorrow to shoot the idea down, but in the meantime , I think the signs are there.

This would leave lots of possibilities still open for future fun with Roose , and would mean that Ramsay is truly on his way to Castle Black.

2) This is intriguing, because I'm sure Littlefinger would take an interest.. I'm just not sure he can be that well informed on what's going on in WF, and I do feel that the HM would have to have some familiarity with the castle to even get in. Can Littlefinger even have had personal contact with anyone there ? E.g., was he in KL when Steelshanks was there to get "Arya" ?

If he could get anyone in , I could see him playing "divide and conquer " with the Boltons, but I haven't noticed any connections being made, so far.

For now, I'm sticking with Benjen , because I can see how and why he could / would have got there , and how he would be the ideal person to bring the various components of the GNC together.

I won't go on at length here, but I feel there has to be much, much more to the crypts - including an escape route that needs a Stark to find it and open it ( like the Black Gate and brothers of the NW).

I am wondering a lot what Benjen learned when he was the Stark in Winterfell. Old Nan was younger and maybe less confused then, and with the outcome of Robert's rebellion still unclear Benjen should have been told everything he needed to know as the Stark.

- I wonder whether Benjen knows more than Eddard

- if the Nightwatch will be dissolved because the wall has fallen and or the Others have been defeated, and Bran is a tree and Rickon lost, Benjen would continue House Stark?

[bemused]

I am wondering a lot what Benjen learned when he was the Stark in Winterfell. Old Nan was younger and maybe less confused then, and with the outcome of Robert's rebellion still unclear Benjen should have been told everything he needed to know as the Stark.

- I wonder whether Benjen knows more than Eddard

- if the Nightwatch will be dissolved because the wall has fallen and or the Others have been defeated, and Bran is a tree and Rickon lost, Benjen would continue House Stark?

Well I wouldn't want to take this thread too far afield, so I won't go into too much detail , but I think (knowing what was coming) that BR/CoTF would have been keeping tabs on Benjen's misson north of the Wall, anyway. Obviously, they consider that Starks will be vital in the coming conflict.

I don't think any living Stark was aware that there could be any magical import to "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" in Ned and Benjen's generation , and maybe not for many generations before that... but BR/CoTF would know. So at least one Stark would have to come into contact with them before the knowledge could be regained and acted upon.

I don't think Benjen knew any more than Ned in AGoT, but he was more open to the possibility of the Others, white walkers, etc., as a result of his time on the Wall.

There appears to be a magical symbiosis between WF and the Wall and some hints that in a bad winter, it's best to have a Stark LC as well as the Stark in WF ( which is why , I suspect, there have been Stark LCs as young as 10 ). But it must surely be preferable that both the Stark in WF and the Stark at the Wall are mature leaders.

So, what have BR/Cotf got to work with ? They need Bran. Rickon is very young and undeveloped in all aspects - leadership, arms, warging (so far as we know). Children are at greater risk during winter, and he's not yet of an age to be able to carry on the Stark line. Both Jon and Benjen would be capable at the Wall and WF, and would make suitable candidates to ensure the line is continued ... but Jon, being younger, is a surer bet.( Although Benjen may have an as-yet-unknown bastard about .)

Sansa and Arya have many of the same problems as Rickon ( and some of their own), though I expect that magically speaking, it doesn't matter if the Stark blood comes through the female line (see Jon) ... but their children would have to be Starks - and that would have to be OK with potential husbands. ..But that's getting into political matters...

Politically, for Jon, there are two possible solutions as presented in the case of the Hornwood succession.

1) The late Lord Hornwood's bastard son could have been legitimized.

2) His sister's son could take the Hornwood name and be adopted by Lady Hornwwod.

If the mystery around his parentage is never cleared up .. Jon is thought to be Ned's bastard. But even if it became clear that he was Lyanna's son, he had already been "adopted" by Ned.

“Then let Lord Hornwood’s bastard be the heir,” Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon

.... (ACoK) ;)

I think there are still many ways GRRM can take the story, but thus far (and to bring it back to the topic at hand), I think Benjen is the HM, and has been working hand in glove with Manderly and the other northern lords... I think Barbrey opened the crypts primarily and knowingly for him (and other fighters he may be guiding in) .. but I don't see him having a part in the killings, I think his (theirs) is a much larger plan.

GRRM has said that there have been rare cases of men being released from the vows of such organizations as the NW. ...And even what we've been shown to date of the Stark family tree in TWoIaF , reveals some interesting anomalies ... so I'm thinking we'll see either Jon or Benjen at WF (possibly creating a shunt in the line, or as regent for Rickon) and the other leading the NW at the Wall .. (and/or , possibly, a new offshoot Stark house also being formed).

I suspect the NW will not be dissolved , but overhauled, with the oath stripped down to it's original form.

[Buried Treasure]

With you so far.

N most of us located the Hooded Man in the Stark camp. However, he might not care for the Starks but to get rid off the Boltons, sowing mistrust and putting them against each other. And someone who would have an interest in this is Littlefinger, as he has plans for Sansa. So the Hooded Man might be working for him? That might link back to AGoT and the assassination attempt on Bran. We are made to believe that was Joffrey's idea, but really?

I've never gotten why so many posters think the hooded man was the murderer. There were no murders that took place on the night that Theon ran into the hooded man.

[Prince of the North]

I believe Big Walder killed Little Walder because Little Walder was becoming more and more like Ramsey Bolton, they were in competition, etc. I believe all the other deaths in Winterfell were the work of the washerwomen.

As far as the Hooded Man goes, I have always been and will remain an adherent to the "Theon Durden" theory until Martin tells me otherwise ;)

[DarkSister1001]

Bemused, :bowdown:

[Roose is Azor Ahai]

I think the snow mans at the WF's walls are the ones, who are on Stannis' side. Lord Umber, Lord Manderly, Lady Dustin and Lord Stout. The ones at the courtyard are just made to avoid suspicions. Walder was propably killed because he heard about conversation between the Bolton's and Frey's enemies.

Or maybe I am just reading too much into those snowmen :dunno:

[unitron]

Didn't the Walder kids argue about where each stood in the line of succession to head of House Frey when they were first fostered to Winterfell?

And weren't they secretly glad when word came of one or more of their relatives (who were in line ahead of them) getting killed?

I think one of them killed the other to shorten the line.

[House Obama]

Didn't the Walder kids argue about where each stood in the line of succession to head of House Frey when they were first fostered to Winterfell?

And weren't they secretly glad when word came of one or more of their relatives (who were in line ahead of them) getting killed?

I think one of them killed the other to shorten the line.

I agree with this, mainly because my head was staring to hurt while reading all of these theories lol.