Heresy 141 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 141 the latest edition of the thread that takes a sideways and sometimes quirky look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

The Heresy is because right at the beginning these threads challenged the conventional assumption that the story is all about defeating the Others and that it is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as Azor Ahai and using Dany’s Amazing Dragons to destroy them. Indeed Heresy questions whether the Others are really the threat they appear, or perhaps more accurately whether they are indeed an icy version of a Dothraki horde, or whether on the one hand that particular threat is at once more complicated and much closer to home, while on the other hand the dragons, far from being the saviours of mankind, may turn out to be the real threat.

This particular thread opens amidst the revelations of the World of Ice and Fire. An embargo is still in place for two more weeks until 28 November [Heresy’s third birthday] requiring the use of the Spoilers warning in the title, so if you haven’t yet indulged in a copy and would rather not know just yet – look way now.

The world of Heresy might at first appear confusing. Normally we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. We are in other words engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics discussed here, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

If new to Heresy you may want to start off with this link to Heresy 100: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/ where you will find a series of essays specially commissioned to celebrate our century by looking closely at some of the major issues. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

Oh, and don’t forget Snowfyre’s health warning:

WARNING: Mental exercise is essential for a healthy life. But if you do not already exercise your mind, you should seek the advice of your doctor prior to beginning this or any other mental activity. Not all thought exercises are suitable for everyone, and any use of your imagination may result in injury to preconceived worldviews. Consult with your doctor before embarking on theories with The Snowfyre Chorus or other self-acknowledged Heretics. If you experience pain or discomfort during consideration of any theory, stop immediately and consult your doctor. The creators, producers, participants and distributors of Heresy-related theories cannot guarantee that component ideas are proper for every individual, or "safe" for his or her preconceived narrative expectations.

[Black Crow]

Regarding the conversation about greenseeing and the future at the end of 140, its perhaps worth recalling what Danaerys was told of the visions she was to see in the House of the Undying; how some related to the past, present and future and how the later were made up of futures that might be and might never be - or words to that effect. Hence they included a vision of her dead son Rhaego with a burning city.

The same, presumably, is true of the weirwood visions which perhaps offer possibilities rather than certainties and neither capable of being interpreted properly until the time comes, by which time its too late.

As to Kurtz, once again it needs to be borne in mind that the Targaryen connection is largely a red herring. He is a Blackwood by birth and upbringing, belonging to the Old Gods and his selected [?] successor is a Stark.

[Black Crow]

Hmm... off topic... Just mulling this line over and over again in my head on the drive home...

Kinda sounds like as the Long Night makes its second coming, all political divisions, Men of various sigils, houses, political alliances and loyalties, will forgo their pasts and be akin to the Watchers on the Walls. Toughened by the Cold. Brothers against the Night.

Sounds to me more like a variant on "at night all cats are grey", ie; you can't tell what colour they really are

[wolfmaid7]

Regarding the conversation about greenseeing and the future at the end of 140, its perhaps worth recalling what Danaerys was told of the visions she was to see in the House of the Undying; how some related to the past, present and future and how the later were made up of futures that might be and might never be - or words to that effect. Hence they included a vision of her dead son Rhaego with a burning city.

The same, presumably, is true of the weirwood visions which perhaps offer possibilities rather than certainties and neither capable of being interpreted properly until the time comes, by which time its too late.

As to Kurtz, once again it needs to be borne in mind that the Targaryen connection is largely a red herring. He is a Blackwood by birth and upbringing, belonging to the Old Gods and his selected [?] successor is a Stark.

I agree to an extent its more than possibilities its something more dangerous and that is "un clear bits" .This also reminds me of the uncertainty of shadows spoken of by Mel and we find even what the GS see being question.

“Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the night fire and you’ll see for yourself. Theflames shift and dance, never still……………………….Well,men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all (ACOK,Davos,pg.617).

Plus we also have a bit from the Wold book ,when speaking of the claim that GSs have the power to see the future

"But as our learning has shown us,the higher mysteries that claim this power also claim that their visions of things to come are unclear and often misleading.Pg,6"

.

I guess it all falls to interpreting the signs or conditions.

[Syri0_F0rel]

DarkRose_9:

Wierwoods = present and past

Greenseers = present and future

Greenseer tapped into weirwood network = past, present and future

1) I agree with this for the most part. Jojen's green dreams see a prophetic future. I imagine Greenseers see it better. Based on the 3EC, the the weirwood sees the stump, time is not linear to the trees.

Wolfmaid7

The clearest vision we have seen so far in all honesty has been Jon seeing Bran on the Skirling Pass and vice versa.But more so from Jon's point of view how he was seeing Bran developing before his eyes..

2) This scene is the one I am most hung up on out of the whole series. Bran is in the crypts of Winterfell just beginning to get the grasp of skinchanging into Summer... yet he is able to appear in front of a warged Ghost in Jon's wolf dream, appear as a growing weirwood with his face, communicate with Jon (even before the tree had a mouth), and touch Ghost's forehead to open up Jon's third eye warging ability. That is quite advanced for Bran's current abilities. How was his self-conscious capable of that? Was he getting help from the 3EC, crypts or the crackpot 'future' Bran?

In another thread Amoracchius wisely pointed out:

Makes me wonder if it has something to do with the crypts themselves. A couple different times, Winterfell has been compared to a tree, which would make the crypts its roots. When Bran meets up with BR/3EC, he is literally under a weirwood tree and connected to its roots. Possible connection?

3) Could the crypts be powerful because they are surrounded by the roots of the heart tree? Or simply as THE roots of Winterfell and House Stark?

4) Lastly, the 3EC is called the "Last Greenseer." I take this to mean Bran will not be a Greenseer or is something more than a Greenseer. I think he has the power and ability to be a significant step above the 3EC. I really believe Bran is a reincarnated 'Old God,' but that is for another day (or another thread).

I would like to discuss #2 and #3 with any takers.

[Melifeather]

If Bloodraven cannot accurately see the future, then how can he be sure Bran is the "winged wolf"? I cannot believe I'm about to say this, but if Jon really is the son of Rhaegar, wouldn't he more likely be described as "winged" and that his chains are the Night's Watch? And if making Bran or Jon a greenseer really isn't the purpose, why did Bloodraven want to intercept the "winged wolf"?

Edited to add: That Bloodraven was looking for the winged wolf would indicate some amount of prophecy, as well as his anticipation that this person would be coming from house Stark. He said he was watching. "Watching" would mean that he was expecting, and to "expect" he would have to see something in the future.

[nanother]

Re: seasons' timeline from last thread:

271 winter (near 3 years and cruel) (Tyrion's birth in dead of winter in 272 or 273)

TWoIaF firmly says 273 for Tyrion's birth, or did I miss something? Not sure if it matters a lot anyway :p

279 winter (2years)

281 false spring

seems more like 280-281: winter and false spring (TWoIaF says the spring lasted about 2 months at the end of the year)

282 winter

284 storm (Daenerys Stormborn)

It was a 'raging summer storm' according to Dany

Also, Jon (born some months before Dany) says at some point that he saw one winter when he was very young, and it was short and mild. Implying that it was the last winter before the long summer, and probably the only one between 284 and 289, although in theory there could have been another very short one when Jon was too young to even remember.

[Melifeather]

I thought of a way for Jon to be the winged wolf without Rhaegar being his father, and it would fit in with my theory that Aerys set Rhaegar up: Aerys is Jon's father. Added bonus: the dragon has three heads, so Aerys three children: Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys.

[DarkRose_9]

I thought of a way for Jon to be the winged wolf without Rhaegar being his father, and it would fit in with my theory that Aerys set Rhaegar up: Aerys is Jon's father. Added bonus: the dragon has three heads, so Aerys three children: Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys.

How, exactly?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Re: seasons' timeline from last thread:

271 winter (near 3 years and cruel) (Tyrion's birth in dead of winter in 272 or 273)

TWoIaF firmly says 273 for Tyrion's birth, or did I miss something? Not sure if it matters a lot anyway :p

279 winter (2years)

281 false spring

seems more like 280-281: winter and false spring (TWoIaF says the spring lasted about 2 months at the end of the year)

282 winter

284 storm (Daenerys Stormborn)

It was a 'raging summer storm' according to Dany

Also, Jon (born some months before Dany) says at some point that he saw one winter when he was very young, and it was short and mild. Implying that it was the last winter before the long summer, and probably the only one between 284 and 289, although in theory there could have been another very short one when Jon was too young to even remember.

Been a while since I seen you onboard. :cheers: I forgot about Jon seeing winter before. It would have to be when he was fairly young. Going backwards from agot with Jon at 14, ten years of summer then a short spring leaves Jon quite young.

But that points to some short mild seasons then a ridiculously long summer. So why the sudden jump in lengths of season? :dunno:

[aDanceWithFlagons]

1) I agree with this for the most part. Jojen's green dreams see a prophetic future. I imagine Greenseers see it better. Based on the 3EC, the the weirwood sees the stump, time is not linear to the trees.

2) This scene is the one I am most hung up on out of the whole series. Bran is in the crypts of Winterfell just beginning to get the grasp of skinchanging into Summer... yet he is able to appear in front of a warged Ghost in Jon's wolf dream, appear as a growing weirwood with his face, communicate with Jon (even before the tree had a mouth), and touch Ghost's forehead to open up Jon's third eye warging ability. That is quite advanced for Bran's current abilities. How was his self-conscious capable of that? Was he getting help from the 3EC, crypts or the crackpot 'future' Bran?

In another thread Amoracchius wisely pointed out:

3) Could the crypts be powerful because they are surrounded by the roots of the heart tree? Or simply as THE roots of Winterfell and House Stark?

4) Lastly, the 3EC is called the "Last Greenseer." I take this to mean Bran will not be a Greenseer or is something more than a Greenseer. I think he has the power and ability to be a significant step above the 3EC. I really believe Bran is a reincarnated 'Old God,' but that is for another day (or another thread).

I would like to discuss #2 and #3 with any takers.

Just a quick jab at #4. I have brought up the Last Greenseer bit before, and that it means Bran will not fill the shoes of Bloodraven. It may be that Bran learns how to use his abilities but never takes the office and title of greenseer; He abandons the Singers and the cave.

It may be than Bran leaves his body behind after putting his conciousness into Hodor or Summer, never to skinchange or greensee again.

Another recent theory of mine, Bran will kill the three-eyed crow. Not Bloodraven, but the entity that represents and pushes the third eye open, therefore bringing an end to greenseeing.

Speculative, yes. But I think the last greenseer title for BR should be taken more literally than it has.

[ThunderG]

If Bloodraven cannot accurately see the future, then how can he be sure Bran is the "winged wolf"? I cannot believe I'm about to say this, but if Jon really is the son of Rhaegar, wouldn't he more likely be described as "winged" and that his chains are the Night's Watch? And if making Bran or Jon a greenseer really isn't the purpose, why did Bloodraven want to intercept the "winged wolf"?

Edited to add: That Bloodraven was looking for the winged wolf would indicate some amount of prophecy, as well as his anticipation that this person would be coming from house Stark. He said he was watching. "Watching" would mean that he was expecting, and to "expect" he would have to see something in the future.

This is like some Jedi stuff from Yoda: 'Hard to see the future, always in motion it is."

Maybe Bloodraven just glimpsed that the winged wolf would be a grandchild of Lord Rickard surviving certain death and picked Bran when he should have waited for Jon? That would be hilarious.

[Melifeather]

How, exactly?

Where were you when I was describing my theory about Aerys sabotaging Rhaegar? I don't know if BC would indulge us by going over it again, unless you are asking something else?

In a nutshell:

1) Aerys is paranoid that Rhaegar was plotting an overthrow.

2) Aerys with Varys's help plan the Harrenhal tourney, sending Ser Oswald Whent of the Kingsguard to bring the plans to his brother, Lord Whent of Harrenhal. Every detail carefully planned, even down to the blue roses...and counting on the other participants letting Rhaegar win just as Ned Stark told Robert that nobody would want to hurt him during the tournament in Ned's honor.

3) Aerys (again with Varys' help) kidnaps Lyanna and rapes her. Pretends to be affronted when Brandon Stark comes looking for Rhaegar, but killing him and Rickard was also very deliberate on Aerys part. Meanwhile, Rhaegar in Dorne is clueless to Lyanna's wherabouts. When he meets Robert at the Trident, he's very confused when he's claimed to have whispered "Lyanna".

4) As for Tyrion, the theory is Joanna was raped by Aerys when Tywin was Hand. Tywin sent Joanna too late to Casterly Rock and that's why he's never been able to tolerate Tyrion. He wasn't sure if Tyrion was his son. Some have even speculated that Tywin tried to get Joanna to abort and that's what actually led to her death in child in childbirth.

This is like some Jedi stuff from Yoda: 'Hard to see the future, always in motion it is."

Maybe Bloodraven just glimpsed that the winged wolf would be a grandchild of Lord Rickard surviving certain death and picked Bran when he should have waited for Jon? That would be hilarious.

:lol:

[DarkRose_9]

Ah. I had read everything except point 3). Thanks for clearing that up. I try to keep up, but sometimes when the thread moves fast, (and I am quite busy atm - christmas can't come soon enough) I miss things. Thanks! :)

[Black Crow]

Been a while since I seen you onboard. :cheers: I forgot about Jon seeing winter before. It would have to be when he was fairly young. Going backwards from agot with Jon at 14, ten years of summer then a short spring leaves Jon quite young.

But that points to some short mild seasons then a ridiculously long summer. So why the sudden jump in lengths of season? :dunno:

I suppose it depends on exactly how Winter is defined. It seems fairly clear from the early chapters in AGoT that snow is common in the North even during a Summer, hence a discussion we had a long time ago about long summers and long winters influencing rather than replacing the normal seasons, ie; a Long Summer is a number of years each characterised by early springs, long dry summers, golden autumns and short dry winters, while conversely a Long Winter is a period of several years characterised by a late spring, a short wet summer, cold and stormy autumn and long hard winter.

I mention this because "Jon's winter" was when he first met Mance Rayder and toppled a large snowman on top of Fat Tom.

[Black Crow]

4) Lastly, the 3EC is called the "Last Greenseer." I take this to mean Bran will not be a Greenseer or is something more than a Greenseer. I think he has the power and ability to be a significant step above the 3EC. I really believe Bran is a reincarnated 'Old God,' but that is for another day (or another thread).

I think that this is quite straightforward.Because Bloodraven/Kurtz is the last greenseer they've got he has been kept alive long after his time to mind the shop while they wait for his successor to tool up

[King Tyrion XX]

Re: seasons' timeline from last thread:

271 winter (near 3 years and cruel) (Tyrion's birth in dead of winter in 272 or 273)

TWoIaF firmly says 273 for Tyrion's birth, or did I miss something? Not sure if it matters a lot anyway :p

279 winter (2years)

281 false spring

seems more like 280-281: winter and false spring (TWoIaF says the spring lasted about 2 months at the end of the year)

282 winter

284 storm (Daenerys Stormborn)

It was a 'raging summer storm' according to Dany

Also, Jon (born some months before Dany) says at some point that he saw one winter when he was very young, and it was short and mild. Implying that it was the last winter before the long summer, and probably the only one between 284 and 289, although in theory there could have been another very short one when Jon was too young to even remember.

Trion says at some point that he lived through 7-8 (or9?) winters. I can't remember right now if that is show only.

[Voice]

Been a while since I seen you onboard. :cheers: I forgot about Jon seeing winter before. It would have to be when he was fairly young. Going backwards from agot with Jon at 14, ten years of summer then a short spring leaves Jon quite young.

But that points to some short mild seasons then a ridiculously long summer. So why the sudden jump in lengths of season? :dunno:

Simple. Daenerys was born, and the summer grew with her. There's also Jon himself... Smallfolk claim, as Pycell tells Ned, that the summers have shortened, and winters lengthened, since the death of the last dragon...until the summer of Dany and Jon's youth, that is.

[wolfmaid7]

1) I agree with this for the most part. Jojen's green dreams see a prophetic future. I imagine Greenseers see it better. Based on the 3EC, the the weirwood sees the stump, time is not linear to the trees.

2) This scene is the one I am most hung up on out of the whole series. Bran is in the crypts of Winterfell just beginning to get the grasp of skinchanging into Summer... yet he is able to appear in front of a warged Ghost in Jon's wolf dream, appear as a growing weirwood with his face, communicate with Jon (even before the tree had a mouth), and touch Ghost's forehead to open up Jon's third eye warging ability. That is quite advanced for Bran's current abilities. How was his self-conscious capable of that? Was he getting help from the 3EC, crypts or the crackpot 'future' Bran?

In another thread Amoracchius wisely pointed out:

3) Could the crypts be powerful because they are surrounded by the roots of the heart tree? Or simply as THE roots of Winterfell and House Stark?

4) Lastly, the 3EC is called the "Last Greenseer." I take this to mean Bran will not be a Greenseer or is something more than a Greenseer. I think he has the power and ability to be a significant step above the 3EC. I really believe Bran is a reincarnated 'Old God,' but that is for another day (or another thread).

I would like to discuss #2 and #3 with any takers.

Like most prophetic dreams Jojen's is symbolic and it comes down again to discerning correctly.Jojen and Bloodraven "observed" Bran and based on that decided he was the one. Neither of them saw Bran in totality.

Bloodraven is making a decision based on what he saw through the net, not what he's seen because as he himself stated he hasn't glimpse that. Remember a glimpse is just a quick unclear picture.

But the interesting thing is Bran and Jon on the pass .im drawn mostly by how Jon is seeing Bran.

But to go back to how well the Greenseer might see visions well how apt are they at discerning the bits they see and constructing a complete picture from unclear bits.

[Voice]

Trion says at some point that he lived through 7-8 (or9?) winters. I can't remember right now if that is show only.

Just read that chapter. It's Tyrion's last at the Wall in agot when he's taking to the Old Bear. I think he said 8 or 9.