Heresy 141 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Black Crow]

In a bond, usually there's a reciprocal arrangement. Dragons fight for, fly for dragonlords. What do dragonlords do for dragons? Same for direwlves. Direwolves because of dog-like relationship seem more like they get a sense of family, actual love, 'pack' and that might be enough. Dragons are a whole different animal, literally.

Its symbiotic. The dragonlords think they are using dragons to gain and maintain power. The dragons get power - and prey

[Lady Barbrey]

Yeah she said TPTWP would come from Jacaerys's line,so that seems that their must have been a prophecy about such a person,but they only thing that seemed a mystery was the lineage.Until the GHH went all " Jacaery's thouh art the line which will bring forth the prince."

Oh no not the actual gods was thinking of transference of some attributes of the FM gods (via devotees) to the Weirwoods.A bit of Stargate SG-1 is bleeding through with regards to that a bit.So discard that.It would be cool though.

Yes re the line, and interestingly Melisandre hasn't heard that prophecy. She thinks it is connected to kings blood, not realizing that kings blood is only an accidental condition because most of the fire magic is held by kings because of incest. So she settled on Stannis as seemingly the last of the Targs, not knowing the Jahaerys prophecy though everyone seemed to know Dany and Viserys were alive. Stannis does hold some fire affinity to make the sword bright but it carries no heat. He's not the wrong king, he's the wrong Targ cause his fire magic isn't strong enough. Its with Melisandre we often get our greatest indications that prophecies are two edged if they aren't full pictures.

That is so Twilight zone or something about the trees! Really cool twist and who knows, something related to it might be true.

[Lady Barbrey]

Its symbiotic. The dragonlords think they are using dragons to gain and maintain power. The dragons get power - and prey

But maybe something more perhaps? They're the sharks of the world, they can get prey enough for themselves I would think.

[Lady Barbrey]

We talked about this one before. GRRM has already introduced us in the main text to mysterious black basalt ruins - including Moat Cailin which shouldn't exist but does, and it is their old magic which is responsible for a lot of what's going on and may perhaps being drawn upon by the present generation, although the Old Gods themselves are long gone.

Yes, and part of what I was going for is that after the fire destroyed the world the sea came sweeping in and drowned everything. The Sea and its old possibly Cthulu-like gods inherited the earth so its denizens come from there (thinking particularly of the Hightowers, their lineage and seat, and the Seastone chair in the Iron Islands. Maybe Moat Caitlin too - that's a topic in Heresy I see references to a lot but haven't read through)). The earth arose and brought with it the Earth-like affinities through the Children, who I suspect are likely of the same proto-race as the giants and possibly the Others. But the one thing that didn't take too much root on Westeros was fire magic. Its like there was a pact from the very beginning - hey we need you in the world but you stay over there on that continent because too close a proximity will destroy us all, our woods and our ice.

Letting my imagination run away with me. But one thing: the Ragnarok planet was initially made from frost giant Ymir. What if the natural state of it is Ice, and all these magical affinities were born to make it liveable? Balance then is not strictly the goal on which this planet survives, though it is of the people. The world is always striving to return to its natural ice-state, and all the other affinities and blood sacrifices and magic etc are the roadblocks in the way. So destroying magic in this world in order to counter an ice threat (a possibility I've considered) would be completely counterproductive. Without the peoples and maybe flora and fauna that carry these magical affinities, the world entrophies into its natural state.

[Lady Barbrey]

The original group being linked to Asshai I think is not improbable, given that Asshai seems to come up again and again both in relation to dragons, and whatever this PTWP prophecy is truly about. Egg apparently got his notions for the Tragedy at Summerhall from Asshai, MMD trained in Asshai, Melisandre came west from Asshai, and Quaithe 'of the Shadow' may be one of those shadowbinders that's dared the Ash river.

Having said that, I'm not sure how far I'd go in characterizing the dragons as THE enemy; I think, like the Others, they're just inherently dangerous, and that danger becomes magnified as a reflection of their wielder.

In this case, Dany may very well be a major antagonist, not because she's magically destined to be, but because of who she is as a human being. Compare her to Aegon the Conqueror, who had dragons, but seemingly took no joy in conquest or rule, and was just as content to make treaties, adopt the Seven as a concession, etc.

Dany, on the other hand, is not the second coming of Aegon; she's the second coming of Khal Drogo. She's entitled, she enjoys conquest more than she enjoys rule, and after Mereen she's not likely to go soft on those that she perceives as her enemies.

You bring up an excellent point about Dany. As much as I would really like a broad understanding of the forces at work in this world, it is being played out on a human level, and Dany's 'remember who you are' ie fire and blood seems ominous. The only way this world seems capable of being 'saved' is possibly through another pact of some kind, and Dany's journey seems to be taking her further and further away from the ability to participate in one. Arya too for that matter if she's a player. All of them perhaps. Hope seems to come in familial bonds and relationships to earth - but what does Dany have in those terms? Nothing. To me, despite her followers, she's very alone because she has no ties such as the Starks or Lannister or others do, other than to her dragons.

[Lady Barbrey]

I did a research of AA/PtwP clues ages ago and the PtwP prophecy seems to be the same as, or interconnected with the Azor Ahai one. So it's been around for long enough for that to happen. Based on the very fragmentary evidence, I'm nearly sure that Mel and Aemon had access to the same source, and that's likely true for Benerro as well. So the AA/PtwP could be a widely known prophecy in Essos, it It's just the 3-headed dragon that seems Targaryen specific, and I do wonder where that comes from (does it have to do with the 3 attempts AA made at forging Lightbringer?).

I dug up a post that more or less sums up my findings and also found a list of relevant quotes (not sure how complete it is? I used ebook+search function and I see it missed the GoHH bit so there might be more)

ACoK

Davos 1“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.

In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

...“Burnt,” said Salladhor Saan, “and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? ... “A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

Dany 4“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

ASoS

Davos 3When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

Davos 5“You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.”

Jon last-1“Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone.”

Sam last“Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we’ve come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.”

... "But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”

AFfC

Sam ?“Dragons,” Aemon whispered. “The grief and glory of my House, they were.”

“The last dragon died before you were born,” said Sam. “How could you remember them?”

“I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . .”

“Or?” said Sam.

“. . . or not.” Aemon chuckled softly. “Or I am an old man, feverish and dying.”

Sam ?Xhondo’s talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him.

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

ADwD

Jon ?“The Horn of Joramun?” Melisandre said. “No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn.”

Jon ?“The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”

Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …”

“… would be a fine thing on the Wall.” Jon put aside his wine cup and drew on his black moleskin gloves. “A pity that the sword that Stannis wields is cold.”

Tyrion ?“Dragons. I understood that word. He said dragons.”

“Aye. The dragons have come to carry her to glory.”

“Her. Daenerys?”

Haldon nodded. “Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”

...

The Volantene waved a hand. “In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world.

Dany“Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line.”

Jon“He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.”

Jon had heard all this before. “Stannis Baratheon was the Lord of Dragonstone, but he was not born there. He was born at Storm’s End, like his brothers.”

Thank you so much for the quotes!

[Lady Barbrey]

All this talk about comets, the Long Night and balance has me thinking. This is my theory:

The long night was a solar eclipse caused by a magical (mis)alignment of the earth's (original) two moons.

We know from history that when ancient peoples did not understand solar (or even lunar) eclipses, they invented wild tales to account for the phenomenon. These stories always included gods/supernatural forces at work. Then too, we have accounts of "darkness" or other sun related events, that are again attributed to a higher power. Consider for instance Joshua 10:13 (from the Bible). According to the passage,

This is an example of divine intervention. If any of you perhaps recall from Sunday school the plagues of Egypt, you might remember that one of the plagues was darkness that lasted for three days. Again, this darkness was supernatural in origin.

Now the Native Americans have a sun myth story (parts of which seem to be tied in with the flood myth) of which there are various versions. The relevant parts are as follows:

These examples speak of darkness, and cold, and attribute the causes to supernatural powers. When we look specifically at myths and legends tied to lunar and solar phenomena, we find something very interesting, namely a disruption of the balance. An article at NatGeo has this to say about ancients cultures' view of eclipses:

In addition, NatGeo also has a brilliant picture of a solar eclipse that shows just the edges of the sun, known colloquially as a"Ring of Fire"

(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/05/pictures/130510-solar-eclipse-sun-sky-space-science-australia/#/may-2013-annular-ring-eclipse-close-up_67288_600x450.jpg)

And here is one more source that specifically speaks to the ancient Chinese beliefs of dragons eating the sun.

http://www.bibalex.org/eclipse2006/historicalobservationsofsolareclipses.htm

I know the above is quite a bit of reading, but bear with me, it all connects to Westeros. In re-reading the section on the Long Night in the WB, I was struck by the turn of phrase "the sun hid it's face from the earth for a lifetime". This sentence comes from the Yi-Tish legend, and the way I read it suddenly made me think of solar and lunar eclipses.

Now of course, solar eclipses do not last long - mayhaps 5-10 minutes depending on where a person is observing from, and whether the eclipse is partial or total. Also, because of the path/shape of the moon's orbit, we only get eclipses a few times year instead of every month.

Now consider that according to Dany's handmaidens, the (Westerosi) earth once had two moons.

The phrase "Kiss the sun" seems like an archaic way to describe the passing of the moon over the sun's face. Additionally, in the WB it states that except for the most ancient of tales, there is no evidence that the seasons were ever regular.

Then of course we have the tales of comets and stars falling to earth, particularly in the age of heroes, if the house of Dayne's tales of fallen stars (and the subsequent forging of their ancestral sword - although where the sword came from is a bit of a mystery, I don't think it's much of a stretch to connect the two) is to be believed, meaning that celestial events were not unusual, yet were still considered magical

How does this all fit together then? I posit this:

Once the seasons were regular, and the earth had two moons, one of which - or both had a non-eliptical orbit that caused eclipses to occur quite frequently. This was taken as normal, (although records from this time have been lost, so this is an assumption I am making).

However, something happened - what I do not know; perhaps the Hammer of Waters or some other magical event, or divine intervention on the part of the old gods Westerosi or otherwise, who were fighting amongst themselves.

This event caused the moons' orbits to be disturbed, resulting in an eclipse that lasted not minutes, and not even days, but a year or more. At the point of totality, the darkness and resulting cold caused a harsh winter, (i.e. Westerors) whereas other parts of the world experienced only a milder version of the cooling effect.

Through blood magic, the COTF, other similar magical beings, and humans who understood the (super)natural forces of the world appealed to the gods/created magical artifacts and destroyed the second moon, or forced it out of the earth's orbit, by way of a comet that collided with the moon. At the same time, the earth's axis/path was affected by powerful earth magics to force it off its natural path.

When the dust settled - so to speak - the crisis had passed, but the seasons were forever imbalanced, and the heavy use of magic had exacted a huge toll of the world. This event can never be replicated in a worldwide manner again, but something is influencing conditions to mimic the original Long Night, and it may be tied to the Red Comet, and other celestial bodies.

In summation, the earth once had two moons. In response to a supernatural event, they aligned to form a long lasting total solar eclipse. Powerful magik was worked to end the eclipse, resulting somehow in the loss of the second moon, but the price was the slow decline of magic/waning powers of the gods and the irregular seasons.

Addendum:

(Now that the Red Comet has been seen in the sky again, it could point to someone who knows what happened all those millennia ago - i.e. someone plugged into a weirwood - playing god and manipulating nature/celestial forces to create a second Long Night/AA reborn etc., for their own purposes.)

Crackpot - the second moon was transformed into dragons, as energy can neither be created or destroyed. The dragons were then buried in a place where no sane person would dare to go - a ring of explosive volcanoes However, people are reckless idiots, and thus Valyria was born. I'm not sure how much screwing with the timeline would be necessary to make this work. :P

Honestly, I dont think there are many crackpot theories on this and yours in the last para are as good as another. You've also gone to a lot of trouble to rationally explain your train of thought on the natural disaster(s) and I appreciate that, seeing it as a possibility.

Fundamentally, we just don't know enough to narrow down theories to one, or even a combination of a few, to explain the Long Night. Part of this is lack of info and that Martin himself has said it has more to do with 'magic'. However, how would that work? A couple of lines of thought take us down a number of different roads:

1) Magic in the sense of a being/s or power/s or god/s of the Let there be light variety. No science needed and no coherent magic system either.

2) Magic that follows a coherent set of rules, which we're not yet familiar with, though we're getting glimpses of it, but doesn't necessarily interact with science. Any decent fantasy will have at least this, a system that might not operate the way we're used to but a system nevertheless; otherwise readers won't buy into it. JRR Tolkien wrote a seminal essay about this, and as a fantasy reader of too many years to count I think he's absolutely right.

3) Magic that has its own coherent system interacting with the science and physical properties of the fantasy world. Not necessarily our world but processes would work in a similarly consistent way and likely be derived from the science of ours.

I think most of us are going with number 3, because there seems so much evidence that the world works much like ours, and we've been told of cataclysmic events. What is worth noting is that these cataclysmic events are always associated with magic. The Doom. The Shattering of the Arm. The Long Night. The Dragon Moon perhaps. Magic or the misuse of it are what seem to bring about imbalances in Martin's world enough to cause cataclysms that mean other means of magic must be used to balance things out.

To me, this is key. It indicates that this world was somehow static to begin with, not necessarily regular, but static somehow and that magic operating with science is what keeps it going and what can disrupt it from continuing.

I had just thought of this today regarding the Long Night so it is continuing to intrigue me. What if the Long Night is not one of these cataclysms? What if the Long Night is the natural state of this world, an icy cold planet of darkness and ice, only possible inhabitants the Others,and it is only the magic of that makes it liveable? That's why the seasons are irregular - they are artificially imposed through magic and it's an inexact science, subject to elemental strength in bloodlines, sacrifice of life to keep it going (like the Aztecs believed), and presence of magic to force it close enough to the sun to give even the semblance of seasons they've got going now?

So your explanation and all of our theories about the Arm, and the Moon and eclipses do make sense, but these are forces and mishaps fighting the actual natural state of being of the planet?

Maybe too sci-fi. You got me really thinking about this seriously and for that I thank you!

I think this post is almost as long as yours! Maybe longer! Sorry everyone, I'm still sick at home and boredom for me breeds verbosity.

[DarkRose_9]

I think most of us are going with number 3, because there seems so much evidence that the world works much like ours, and we've been told of cataclysmic events. What is worth noting is that these cataclysmic events are always associated with magic. The Doom. The Shattering of the Arm. The Long Night. The Dragon Moon perhaps. Magic or the misuse of it are what seem to bring about imbalances in Martin's world enough to cause cataclysms that mean other means of magic must be used to balance things out.

To me, this is key. It indicates that this world was somehow static to begin with, not necessarily regular, but static somehow and that magic operating with science is what keeps it going and what can disrupt it from continuing.

I had just thought of this today regarding the Long Night so it is continuing to intrigue me. What if the Long Night is not one of these cataclysms? What if the Long Night is the natural state of this world, an icy cold planet of darkness and ice, only possible inhabitants the Others,and it is only the magic of that makes it liveable? That's why the seasons are irregular - they are artificially imposed through magic and it's an inexact science, subject to elemental strength in bloodlines, sacrifice of life to keep it going (like the Aztecs believed), and presence of magic to force it close enough to the sun to give even the semblance of seasons they've got going now?

So your explanation and all of our theories about the Arm, and the Moon and eclipses do make sense, but these are forces and mishaps fighting the actual natural state of being of the planet?

I like your ideas on Ragnarok/ice being the natural state of the world, and I definitely agree with number 3. Given the new info from the worldbook - as I said to Wolfmaid - I'm exploring physical causes behind the LN, much as we have done with the Arm of Dorne, and the Doom. Martin clearly drew inspiration from real-life events for the first two, so why not the third? A solar eclipse (or similar celestial event) just stood out to me so clearly upon re-reading the text.

I also think it's possible that (again per your Ragnarok ideas) seeing how the LN happened so long ago, it could be that the original magical forces on Martin's earth (the old gods, etc) had at least a hand in the events before they faded from all but memory.

[nanother]

Letting my imagination run away with me. But one thing: the Ragnarok planet was initially made from frost giant Ymir. What if the natural state of it is Ice, and all these magical affinities were born to make it liveable? Balance then is not strictly the goal on which this planet survives, though it is of the people. The world is always striving to return to its natural ice-state, and all the other affinities and blood sacrifices and magic etc are the roadblocks in the way. So destroying magic in this world in order to counter an ice threat (a possibility I've considered) would be completely counterproductive. Without the peoples and maybe flora and fauna that carry these magical affinities, the world entrophies into its natural state.

I like this line of thinking.

1) Magic in the sense of a being/s or power/s or god/s of the Let there be light variety. No science needed and no coherent magic system either.

2) Magic that follows a coherent set of rules, which we're not yet familiar with, though we're getting glimpses of it, but doesn't necessarily interact with science. Any decent fantasy will have at least this, a system that might not operate the way we're used to but a system nevertheless; otherwise readers won't buy into it. JRR Tolkien wrote a seminal essay about this, and as a fantasy reader of too many years to count I think he's absolutely right.

3) Magic that has its own coherent system interacting with the science and physical properties of the fantasy world. Not necessarily our world but processes would work in a similarly consistent way and likely be derived from the science of ours.

Too tired to respond in detail, but regarding tis bit: I don't think Martin's magic will have a coherent set of rules, at least not to the extent that some fan theories assume. He stated that he likes magic being mysterious and unpredictable, rather than just another form of science as it's often becomes in fantasy literature. Sure there are broad rules like 'only death can pay for life', and all will intuitively kind of make sense, but I think that's the extent of it.

Also based on SSM, I'm suspicious of any semi-scientific explanations for the LN or the Hammer or the Doom: on the one hand, Planetos seems to have Earth-like science, so it'd make sense to assume that magic somehow works through the laws of physics ... on the other hand his remark about the messed up seasons being purely magical was a response to fan attempts at scientific explanations. Now, it seems to me that using the same kind of explanations, only adding that the necessary conditions were triggered by magic, is not significantly different and would probably elicit the same kind of response from Martin. Not that I mind, they're still fun to read :)

[Lady Barbrey]

I like your ideas on Ragnarok/ice being the natural state of the world, and I definitely agree with number 3. Given the new info from the worldbook - as I said to Wolfmaid - I'm exploring physical causes behind the LN, much as we have done with the Arm of Dorne, and the Doom. Martin clearly drew inspiration from real-life events for the first two, so why not the third? A solar eclipse (or similar celestial event) just stood out to me so clearly upon re-reading the text.

I also think it's possible that (again per your Ragnarok ideas) seeing how the LN happened so long ago, it could be that the original magical forces on Martin's earth (the old gods, etc) had at least a hand in the events before they faded from all but memory.

Yes, the World book got me thinking along the same lines. Also evolution and migration but in the context of this world. With the Ragnarok theory, the oldest beings and peoples in the world would be the most cold-adapted. And look who is up north - the Others, then the children/giants, and the Ibbenese, who are compared to the early humans of our world though they can interbreed despite what Yandel says if Ben Plumm's grandma was one. The First Men themselves might have been an earlier people than the Andals, not just earlier arrivals in Westeros, as they seem to withstand the cold better.

But who knows what's going on in Sothyros and the islands. Martin would never likely go into a theory like this in the novels, but to me the World book doesnt have to strongly support it but it can't contradict it either. From what I can see, a Ragnarok ice world that slowly changed through magic is at least not inconsistent with the little we have about evolution on the planet.

[Lady Barbrey]

I like this line of thinking.

Too tired to respond in detail, but regarding tis bit: I don't think Martin's magic will have a coherent set of rules, at least not to the extent that some fan theories assume. He stated that he likes magic being mysterious and unpredictable, rather than just another form of science as it's often becomes in fantasy literature. Sure there are broad rules like 'only death can pay for life', and all will intuitively kind of make sense, but I think that's the extent of it.

Also based on SSM, I'm suspicious of any semi-scientific explanations for the LN or the Hammer or the Doom: on the one hand, Planetos seems to have Earth-like science, so it'd make sense to assume that magic somehow works through the laws of physics ... on the other hand his remark about the messed up seasons being purely magical was a response to fan attempts at scientific explanations. Now, it seems to me that using the same kind of explanations, only adding that the necessary conditions were triggered by magic, is not significantly different and would probably elicit the same kind of response from Martin. Not that I mind, they're still fun to read :)

Possibly. They're still fun to speculate on too! And I kind of like this theory because it twists things around a little, and accounts for the remark about the magical seasons. Also, the World Book is fairly consistent on a sort of magical affinity genetics, though not perhaps strictly based on ours. So I do think there's a coherent system of magic/science in place though likely very elastic! I'll be watching in Winds to see if anything more comes of this theory.

What is SSM by the way?

[Black Crow]

SSM = "So spake Martin" a collection of interviews and less formal quotable bits by GRRM on his work, full of all sorts of useful elucidation http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/

[Black Crow]

Yes, and part of what I was going for is that after the fire destroyed the world the sea came sweeping in and drowned everything. The Sea and its old possibly Cthulu-like gods inherited the earth so its denizens come from there (thinking particularly of the Hightowers, their lineage and seat, and the Seastone chair in the Iron Islands. Maybe Moat Caitlin too - that's a topic in Heresy I see references to a lot but haven't read through).

Try this one http://asoiaf.wester...7608-heresy-135

Its about the Hammer of the Waters, but there's an extensive discussion about Moat Cailin starting page 3 with post 53.

[Black Crow]

Also based on SSM, I'm suspicious of any semi-scientific explanations for the LN or the Hammer or the Doom: on the one hand, Planetos seems to have Earth-like science, so it'd make sense to assume that magic somehow works through the laws of physics ... on the other hand his remark about the messed up seasons being purely magical was a response to fan attempts at scientific explanations. Now, it seems to me that using the same kind of explanations, only adding that the necessary conditions were triggered by magic, is not significantly different and would probably elicit the same kind of response from Martin. Not that I mind, they're still fun to read :)

The way I've always read that SSM is that it was, as you say, a refutation of some of the scientific explanations offered on the forums at the time such as an eliptical orbit or a cosmic near miss. Rather he was saying it was not a natural phenomenon but that someone had worked magic to achieve it. That's not to say however that the magic was necessarily used to create the "problem" and that if someones pulls the plug it will switch off and everything will return to normal. The effect may be permanent.

To give an example, I've previously demonstrated that the breaking of the Arm of Dorne is paralleled in our world by the breaking of the land bridge between Britain [Westeros] and Europe [Essos]. In our world that was accomplished by the calving of a huge chunk of the ice cap sealing the northern end of the North Sea [Narrow Sea]. If the children used dark magic to cause that calving, then the cause of the breaking was ultimately down to magic and like Humpty Dumpty that particular breakage can't be put back together again.

[DarkRose_9]

That's sort of why I was going with two moons (the destruction/disappearence of one)/an eclipse. The first is something that can't be fixed, and the second is a natural event that in our world has been associated with supernaturall forces, and that in Martin's world could actually be a result of dark magic/the old gods.

[Black Crow]

The point basically is that a natural calamity [governed by the ordinary laws of physics] was initiated by the use of magic.

And with that, as we're in a bit of a quiet patch I reckon its time for Heresy 142.

See you over there.