Jump to content

R+L=J v.114


Jon Weirgaryen

Recommended Posts

Really? Learning where you come from isn't emotionally trying for a young man? Learning that daddy isn't daddy? That he'll never get to speak to the two people who created him? Learning that his father "taking" his mother was major to leading up to a war in which his grandfather and uncle died? And his other uncle kept secrets for 16 years? And that he was made possibly to be some sort of savior?

Seriously? YOu think all these things won't give him at least PAUSE?

Well, yeah. I really mean what I said. Not sure what you're suggesting is the same thing, though. For one thing, it's clear that the lack of such knowledge has already been "emotionally trying" for Jon. So to a certain extent, finding out anything at all might come as something of a relief. I also don't have the impression that Ned was ever really "daddy" to Jon - not in the sense of being super-familiar or affectionate, which is what that word seems to imply.

The idea that Winterfell is "not his place," would not be new information to Jon at all; in fact that's the issue that's motivated his story from book 1, chapter 1 (eg, "Lord father... I am no Stark."). That's the issue he struggled with so mightily when confronted with Stannis' offer of Winterfell at the end of book 3. And, in between, that's more or less the issue he's had to deal with while coming to terms with his NW vows.

If anything, I believe the revelation Lyanna Stark as his mother would empower Jon - confirming his connection to Winterfell both by blood and affection... strengthening his loyalty and love for the father who raised and protected him at great personal cost. That, in spite of the fact that he's already chosen another place and life.

Do I think the revelation will give Jon "pause?" Of course. Do I think it increases his sense of inner turmoil? No. In fact, it seems just as likely to do the very opposite - empowering his sense of self, and strengthening his resolve to accomplish the purpose to which he's already committed his life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If anything, I believe the revelation Lyanna Stark as his mother would empower Jon - confirming his connection to Winterfell both by blood and affection... strengthening his loyalty and love for the father who raised and protected him at great personal cost. That, in spite of the fact that he's already chosen another place and life.

Do I think the revelation will give Jon "pause?" Of course. Do I think it increases his sense of inner turmoil? No. In fact, it seems just as likely to do the very opposite - empowering his sense of self, and strengthening his resolve to accomplish the purpose to which he's already committed his life.

Well I don't disagree that learning about Lyanna isn't going to empower him or something. But I utterly disagree that he's going to ignore all the Targaryen side of this--which is what you seem to be suggesting. Jon is the great balance. He is not going to choose a side (Stark or Targ). He exists between the two and can easily move between what they represent. He's not going to become a son of Winterfell or Jon Stark. He is both Stark and Targ, and he'll embrace that. (I also utterly disagree that learning all about R and L and what went down isn't going to give him some sort of internal conflict, but I can wait until winds to have that conversation again)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really? Learning where you come from isn't emotionally trying for a young man? Learning that daddy isn't daddy? That he'll never get to speak to the two people who created him? Learning that his father "taking" his mother was major to leading up to a war in which his grandfather and uncle died? And his other uncle kept secrets for 16 years? And that he was made possibly to be some sort of savior?

Seriously? YOu think all these things won't give him at least PAUSE?

The emotional impact is blown out of proportion. We are not speaking about a contemporary, ordinary young man. We are speaking about a soldier, a commander, someone who has experienced war and death and hardship. Someone who has killed people. And winter is coming.

The emotional impact of learning R+L doesn't even measure up to Robb and Ned's death and it certainly won't measure up to whatever Jon is going to witness in the near future...

Besides, Jon only ever cared about his mother... The crypt dreams have always hinted toward his mother. The tale of Bael the Bard also says more about his mother than about his father. The vision of the blue flower on a wall of ice associates Jon to his mother.

Jon's question has never been 'who is my father?' and always 'who is my mother?.' With R+L, he will discover that his mother was a Stark, and that she resembled Arya; his favorite sibling, the sister he broke his vows for. He will understand Ned's love for Lyanna spontaneously; it will come naturally to him, because he loves Arya the way Ned might have loved Lyanna. Jon will understand well enough why Ned did what he did; he found himself in a similar position with Mance's boy, after all.

He might care little to understand Rhaegar's reasons, though. He might not even have the time to understand Rhaegar's reasons....imo, Lyanna and the Starks matter most for the emotional development of Jon's arc. Rhaegar and the Targaryens matter because of blood and politics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jon's question has never been 'who is my father?' and always 'who is my mother?.' With R+L, he will discover that his mother was a Stark, and that she resembled Arya; his favorite sibling, the sister he broke his vows for. He will understand Ned's love for Lyanna spontaneously; it will come naturally to him, because he loves Arya the way Ned might have loved Lyanna. Jon will understand well enough why Ned did what he did; he found himself in a similar position with Mance's boy, after all.

Well of course Jon hasn't! He's always believed Ned is his father! Why in the world would he question"who is my father" when Ned has told him his whole life that he was his father??

Also, disagree that the blue rose has no connection to Rhaegar--just to Lyanna. Rhaegar GAVE that flower to Lyanna just like he "gave" her Jon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well of course Jon hasn't! He's always believed Ned is his father! Why in the world would he question"who is my father" when Ned has told him his whole life that he was his father??

Also, disagree that the blue rose has no connection to Rhaegar--just to Lyanna. Rhaegar GAVE that flower to Lyanna just like he "gave" her Jon.

You have a way of twisting words. I did not write that the blue flower has no connection to Rhaegar. I wrote that it connected Jon to Lyanna. The one does not exclude the other, it only means the connection to Lyanna is stronger and more obvious.

And, yes, of course Jon didn't know to ask about his father; that does not change the fact that he's wondered about his mother all his life and that not knowing her has caused him distress. Her identity was at the center of Jon's questioning for years; and with R+L; Jon will finally know her. There is a longing here, to be fulfilled. There is no longing to be fulfilled concerning the identity of his father; making that information less welcome -- if not embarrassing, and burdening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have a way of twisting words. I did not write that the blue flower has no connection to Rhaegar. I wrote that it connected Jon to Lyanna. The one does not exclude the other, it only means the connection to Lyanna is stronger and more obvious.

And, yes, of course Jon didn't know to ask about his father; that does not change the fact that he's wondered about his mother all his life and that not knowing her has caused him distress. Her identity was at the center of Jon's questioning for years; and with R+L; Jon will finally know her. There is a longing here, to be fulfilled. There is no longing to be fulfilled concerning the identity of his father; making that information less welcome -- if not embarrassing, and burdening.

The blue flower connects all three of them. There is no blue flower, no Lyanna and Jon without Rhaegar. Just like the in the story of Bael the Bard, you wouldn't have the blue rose without the king leaving it behind. It's not just L and J; it's all three.

Jon's never had to be distressed over his father because he "knows" who his father is--so there is no "longing;" Ned was his father, he never had reason to question that. I would argue that learning the man you thought was your father your whole life in reality isn't--and your father is really a dead Targaryen prince--is going to cause quite a bit of turmoil. Especially if Jon is, as I believe, legit. And being Rhaegar's son is embarrassing? Why? Jon will also likely learn that true nature of Rhaegar and what was going on with L (ie: not kidnapping and rape). He'll learn that his father was a politically savvy, a good man, smart, capable, talented, considerate, caring, astute. Why is this embarrassing? It doesn't change how he feels about Ned or that Ned is "dad" but I don't know why he would reject his Targaryen side. It's part of him--it's why he is the Son(g) of Ice and Fire. He is the balance. He isn't going to forsake one side for the other,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently added this to my Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. It might be relevant for this discussion.



1) Probably the biggest misconception regarding the blue roses is that they symbolize Lyanna Stark. A belief which is no doubt encouraged by GRRM, and based on a kind of cognitive bias. Because every occurrence of blue roses in AGoT is accompanied by Lyanna. That way we are conditioned to connect the flowers to her and only her. It's a clever (re: tricky) way to obscure their true meaning. That way, by the time we read Ned's final chapter, and find out that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown of winter roses at Harrenhal, we have been conditioned to mentally downplay or dismiss Rhaegar's part in the symbolism. But he is not an afterthought here. Nor are the blue roses just a 'Lyanna thing'. Her crown was actually his crown first. The champion's laurel, for winning the joust.


2) Every now and then a debate will arise regarding the certainty of Jon's paternity, whilst conceding the maternity; i.e., ?+L=J. The answer to which is: follow the trail of blue roses. Chronologically, this leads back to the tourney at Harrenhal in 281AC, when Rhaegar Targaryen placed a crown of winter roses in Lyanna's lap. Not to state the obvious, but: in order to understand the recurring thoughts and visions of Lyanna with blue roses, it helps to start at the beginning. In other words, you should always remember that Rhaegar gave Lyanna her blue roses.



- Link



Needless to say, BQ87 and I are in complete agreement.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

The blue flower connects all three of them. There is no blue flower, no Lyanna and Jon without Rhaegar. Just like the in the story of Bael the Bard, you wouldn't have the blue rose without the king leaving it behind. It's just L and J; it's all three.

Jon's never had to be distressed over his father because he "knows" who his father is--so there is no "longing;" Ned was his father, he never had reason to question that. I would argue that learning the man you thought was your father your whole life in reality isn't--and your father is really a dead Targaryen prince--is going to cause quite a bit of turmoil. Especially if Jon is, as I believe, legit. And being Rhaegar's son is embarrassing? Why? Jon will also likely learn that true nature of Rhaegar and what was going on with L (ie: not kidnapping and rape). He'll learn that his father was a politically savvy, a good man, smart, capable, talented, considerate, caring, astute. Why is this embarrassing? It doesn't change how he feels about Ned or that Ned is "dad" but I don't know why he would reject his Targaryen side. It's part of him--it's why he is the Son(g) of Ice and Fire. He is the balance. He isn't going to forsake one side for the other,

Who said anything about forsaking?

To summarize my position:

  • Lyanna = more important for emotional development;

Rhaegar = more important for blood and politics.

As to why the knowledge of Rhaegar being Jon's father would be embarrassing: Embarrass has two meanings -- though it seems the second is 'archaic'. My fault then, the word is of french origin and that's my first language...I meant embarrassing as in:

  • archaic hamper or impede (a person or action). "the state of the rivers will embarrass the enemy"

archaic make difficult or intricate; complicate. "I do not apprehend that this case will be embarrassed by that decision"

What I meant to say is that since the knowledge is undesired and unwanted -- and, yes Jon isn't even aware there's a question to ask -- Jon might perceive it more as a burden than anything else. It might complicate his situation; he might not even know what to do with it. Accepting Lyanna as his mother would come much more easily, because Jon has desired that knowledge and longed for it -- it also, as The Snowfyre Chorus stated, would confirm his identity as a Stark...

Though, I'd say that having his identity as a Stark confirmed, does not mean that Jon cannot, and will not play the Targaryen card as well. It's not so much about forsaking one side over the other -- it's about how Jon sees himself and how he wants others to perceive him. The Stark identity is personal, private and intimate. The Targaryen identity I see as a political one, a superficial, public persona.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently added this to my Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. It might be relevant for this discussion.

- Link

Needless to say, BQ87 and I are in complete agreement.

Of course you are in agreement--because BQ87 is always right (except for those rare cases with she disagrees with me). :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently added this to my Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. It might be relevant for this discussion.

- Link

Needless to say, BQ87 and I are in complete agreement.

Thanks :)

Who said anything about forsaking?

To summarize my position:

  • Lyanna = more important for emotional development;
  • Rhaegar = more important for blood and politics.

Well, I don't agree that the categories are so strict. Lyanna is also a daughter of the highest lord in the North and now Jon is not a bastard and has been named heir to Robb's throne at WF...that's pretty political.

Rhaegar is the father he'll never know and belongs to a family that, outside of Dany, has pretty much died off and has a history of being both crazy and great and everything in between...that's pretty emotional.

See what I'm getting at? Balance. It's always and forever will be about balance when it comes to Jon Snow.

Of course you are in agreement--because BQ87 is always right (except for those rare cases with she disagrees with me). :thumbsup:

LOL!! I think we're up to two disagreements now? In a series where everything is debatable, I'd say we're aces.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently added this to my Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. It might be relevant for this discussion.

- Link

Needless to say, BQ87 and I are in complete agreement.

I can say, with no hesitation whatsoever, that I disagree completely that the blue rose represents Rhaegar in any way. Please don't take it personally, but I find the very idea ridiculous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can say, with no hesitation whatsoever, that I disagree completely that the blue rose represents Rhaegar in any way. Please don't take it personally, but I find the very idea ridiculous.

The blue rose represents the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can say, with no hesitation whatsoever, that I disagree completely that the blue rose represents Rhaegar in any way. Please don't take it personally, but I find the very idea ridiculous.

Why? Rhaegar is the one who gave Lyanna the blue rose. Like MtnLion says it's Jon; the blue rose growing from the Wall is clearly Jon who is the product of both his parents--Rhaegar and Lyanna. The blue winter rose (thing that grows in winter despite normally needing a warm summery climate) is Jon himself, who only came about because of R and L. It's not just L and J (unless you want to argue that parthenogenesis is a thing now)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can say, with no hesitation whatsoever, that I disagree completely that the blue rose represents Rhaegar in any way. Please don't take it personally, but I find the very idea ridiculous.

I don't think I said that they represent Rhaegar. More like R+L(=J). But, Lyanna's blue roses were Rhaegar's first. He won that crown, and then he gave it to her.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. -Eddard X

In Ned's ToJ dream, he sees blue rose petals. The inspiration for which is the crown Rhaegar won, and then gave to Lyanna at HH.

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. - Eddard XIII

She's wearing the crown Rhaegar won and gave her at HH. Also, note the tears of blood. Which could be a nod to her identity as the KotLT at HH, since weirwoods appear to cry tears of blood. Both the crown and the KotLT are from the HH tourney.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. - Eddard XV

People can object to the connection of Rhaegar to the blue roses if they want, however; before they do, they should remember that Rhaegar won the crown of blue roses and gave it to Lyanna.

Note "Promise me, Ned," . . . and "bed of blood" right after the blue roses. The latter two make for compelling evidence Lyanna had a baby, and Rhaegar was the father. In fact, I'm pretty sure the crowning is symbolic of Jon's conception. Rhaegar moves on from Elia to Lyanna, and places the crown in her lap with the tip of his penis metaphor.

ETA: Also, what BQ87 and MtnLion said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...