R+L=J v.114

[BearQueen87]

Now, this is interesting. I'm browsing through the SSMs and came over this:

Catelyn recalls that at Riverrun, Brandon told her that he would return soon for their wedding. Where was he going?

GRRM refused to answer where Brandon was going.

Somewhere - the app?- we have that Brandon went to meet the wedding party. What was so damned secret about this? It's not like we didn't know he was to be married soon and that his pa might want to come. I say, why the secrecy, unless there is something more to it?

Even if it was our favorite Inn at the Crossroads, that's not a big secret--right? Good find. Always assumed Brandon was going to have one final fling with Lady Barbary but that does make it sound like there is something more...something political.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Look at that, if you don't believe what they say you lack logic and critical thinking skills.

The App and the Wiki are fanfiction.

App and Wiki are not fanfiction. A lot of time is put into making the wiki as good as it can be, and while it will take a lot of more work, it's improving.

Should you find plain mistakes, spelling errors, grammar errors, missing sources, or interpretations that are stated as canon, all of that can be discussed here. We can't fix stuff when we don't know it is wrong, you know ;)

As to the app, that's info from the books, and some notes from GRRM that Ran has put in there. There are a few mistakes in the app as well, but if I've understood it correctly, there are updates regularly now with corrections.

Now, this is interesting. I'm browsing through the SSMs and came over this:

Catelyn recalls that at Riverrun, Brandon told her that he would return soon for their wedding. Where was he going?

GRRM refused to answer where Brandon was going.

Somewhere - the app?- we have that Brandon went to meet the wedding party. What was so damned secret about this? It's not like we didn't know he was to be married soon and that his pa might want to come. I say, why the secrecy, unless there is something more to it?

Yes, that was the app. From the last big update, some time last year I think..

[Ygrain]

Thanks.

Update on the SSMs: at least three or four times a promise that we/Jon will learn about his parents, and also a promise that we will learn more about Lyanna and HH.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In addition, wasn't it an interview from last year where GRRM said that, by the time we've had The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring, a book about the Rebellion would be useless, as we would already know everything of importance?

[Greymoon]

Even if it was our favorite Inn at the Crossroads, that's not a big secret--right? Good find. Always assumed Brandon was going to have one final fling with Lady Barbary but that does make it sound like there is something more...something political.

Is there a possibility that Brandon sought out Ashara? I'm entertained by the (long ago discussed) idea that Ashara was raped by Aerys and turned to Brandon for help; which would help explain Brandon's reaction to the news that Rhaegar 'took' Lyanna...Brandon might all too easily have believed Rhaegar capable of rape because you know -- like father, like son.

In any case even if we let Aerys + Ashara aside for now, Brandon + Ashara is still a very real possibility, yes?

Somehow, Ashara is a key figure in R+L; she's stands out in the tale, and there has to be a reason for that. Is it at all possible that Ashara stayed with Lyanna instead of returning south with Elia? I don't remember it being mentioned in any way in particular that Ashara was with Elia after the Tourney. Also, while I've accepted that Lyanna was somewhere in the riverlands (and not in Winterfell) before her disappearance, I'm having trouble coming up with a convenient excuse for her to stay near Riverrun, yet not at Riverrun, with Catelyn.

So, what if Ashara provided that excuse and invited Lyanna to stay with her, as a guest of Lord Whent? ...Ashara could have acted as a 'go between' for Rhaegar and Lyanna; and Lyanna, as an alibi for Brandon visiting Ashara...

[King Tyrion XX]

Even calling the wiki fanfiction is inaccurate, though I will grant you there are mistakes and people making assumptions and then sometimes building from those weak assumptions. It's gotten better lately, I think.

Calling the official app fanfiction is just dumb. (Though it also had some mistakes, many of which have been corrected.) The character pages were written for the worldbook, and the rest is based on known information from the books or Martin's notes. They did not make any of it up themselves.

Known information? It is not known what name Rhaegar said as he died.

[King Tyrion XX]

Apparently you're also "dumb" if you don't believe the fanfiction they do.

[Alia of the knife]

Now, this is interesting. I'm browsing through the SSMs and came over this:

Catelyn recalls that at Riverrun, Brandon told her that he would return soon for their wedding. Where was he going?

GRRM refused to answer where Brandon was going.

Somewhere - the app?- we have that Brandon went to meet the wedding party. What was so damned secret about this? It's not like we didn't know he was to be married soon and that his pa might want to come. I say, why the secrecy, unless there is something more to it?

:agree:

[Ygrain]

Known information? It is not known what name Rhaegar said as he died.

Because you have gone through all the interviews, right?

[Alia of the knife]

As for the App., there was actually a thread on it when it first came out.

GRRM sat down with either Linda or Elio and confirmed, or answered some questions completely as in the name on Rhaegars lips, or that Brandon died without legitimate sons, and that Lyanna simply died.

He went on and answered other questions more vaguely, or was more cagey in his usual way regarding some characters, and didn't answer some at all.

In other words, he confirmed what he wanted to at that particular time.

[Greymoon]

I think Asharas only importance was that she was a red herring for Lyanna, Ned a red herring for Brandon and the father of Asharas child.

...but she could have been just a random high born girl that Ned danced with...yet, she is Arthur's sister, instead. And Arthur is a friend of Rhaegar's, and serves along Oswell Whent, brother to the Lord of Harrenhal. It's all too convenient to be simple coincidence. And what excuse did Lyanna have to be staying in the Riverlands, but not at Riverrun where she'd have gotten to know her soon to be good-sister?

And what about her death? Was it Arthur's death that pushed her over the edge? or was she already wracked by guilt long before that, and long before she lost her daughter -- because she had, somehow, helped events along?

[Ygrain]

As for the App., there was actually a thread on it when it first came out.

GRRM sat down with either Linda or Elio and confirmed, or answered some questions completely as in the name on Rhaegars lips, or that Brandon died without legitimate sons, and that Lyanna simply died.

He went on and answered other questions more vaguely, or was more cagey in his usual way regarding some characters, and didn't answer some at all.

In other words, he confirmed what he wanted to at that particular time.

Do you think you could dig the thread? I would but it's rather late here.

- Not that there is any doubt about the name, given that we know exactly two women connected to Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna, and he was "fond of" the former and loved the latter :-)

[BearQueen87]

Apparently you're also "dumb" if you don't believe the fanfiction they do.

If you choose not to believe anything on the App, that's fine. However, the first 5 book in a Song of Ice and Fire are not fanfiction and you have yet to provide an alternative solution to the name on Rhaegar's lips.

And if anyone can find the thread Alia is talking about, that'd be nice. I'll try hunting as well, though that was before I joined full time.

[BearQueen87]

No thread, but I did find this...

World of Ice and Fire App Hits Android

You’ve asked for it, and now it’s here. The A World of Ice and Fire app—a handy, dandy, official and art-filled guide to the novels that Linda and I helped provide the majority of the content of (with oversight from GRRM)—is now available for Android at Google Play (unfortunately, for the time being, it’s US only).

There’s a deal of new content along with this version of the app, content that will be included in the iOs app when it gets its next iTunes update. These include:

• Presently, it is US only—that’s the only caveat.
  
• Profiles for the Men of the Night’s Watch, Brotherhood Without Banners, and the Free Folk
  
• 30 new illustrations for key places
  
• The ability to search for characters by alias
  
• Further improvements to the anti-spoiler and map functionality
  

X

And from George's (not a) blog

So the official George and his publisher approved World of Ice and Fire app is available. I can attest to the fact that he personally worked on this project, because I sat and took notes as we went over hundreds of questions on random Ice and Fire arcana. No, it didn't delay Winds of Winter. I made him do it while he ate lunch. Yes, he complains when I make him work during lunch

X

[Alia of the knife]

...but she could have been just a random high born girl that Ned danced with...yet, she is Arthur's sister, instead. And Arthur is a friend of Rhaegar's, and serves along Oswell Whent, brother to the Lord of Harrenhal. It's all too convenient to be simple coincidence. And what excuse did Lyanna have to be staying in the Riverlands, but not at Riverrun where she'd have gotten to know her soon to be good-sister?

And what about her death? Was it Arthur's death that pushed her over the edge? or was she already wracked by guilt long before that, and long before she lost her daughter -- because she had, somehow, helped events along?

I suspect its more likely she stayed with Whents daughter at Harrenhal.

[Alia of the knife]

Do you think you could dig the thread? I would but it's rather late here.

- Not that there is any doubt about the name, given that we know exactly two women connected to Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna, and he was "fond of" the former and loved the latter :-)

I tried before because it should actually be in my content, but I didn't see it. I will try again when I get home. :)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

SSM:

And then the other one was, of course, you know, I have certain things that Im laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people had put together those clues even as early as 1998, adding things together. I said, What do I do with that? What do I do with that? These people have guessed the secret that Im gonna reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that here and book 2 is just out. You really have two choices there: you can ignore it and proceed with your plan, despite the fact that some people know where youre going; or you can get all panicky and say OMG, theyve figured it out, I cant let that be, Ill have to change it, Ill have to go in a different direction. And I think some writers do that, and I think thats always a mistake. You know, if you've planned your book that the butler did it, and then you read on the internet that someone has figured out that the butler did it and you suddenly change in midstream and it was the chambermaid who did it, then you screw up the whole book, because you get this foreshadowing early on and youve got these little clues youve planted and now theyre dead ends, and you have to introduce these other clues and now youre retconningits a mess.

Jon's parentage is the only 'mystery' he set up in book 1 that people could guess by book 2 and hasn't been revealed yet. Also, given what happened in ADWD, it only makes sense that the big revelation would take place next book.

The show looks like it will follow the same time of arc, so I would expect it to happen in season 6.

Was not that quote from the time when Martin planned on 6 books to finish?

[sj4iy]

Was not that quote from the time when Martin planned on 6 books to finish?

No, it was a quote from an interview he did this year.

http://youtu.be/zFAGknnoRio?t=10m1s

[UVA]

Look at that, if you don't believe what they say you lack logic and critical thinking skills.

The App and the Wiki are fanfiction.

While these aren't textual canon, I consider them well-informed sources -- the WOIAF app more so than the Wiki if only because there are hundreds of people contributing to the various Wiki pages as opposed to a select few on the app (Martin, Ran and Linda). But since you mention a lack logic...

...look we have confirmation that the app has been vetted/approved by Martin, and while the author may not have signed off on every detail in every entry, I'm certain that anything relating to R+L was "ok'd" by Martin. Considering that the theory is arguably the most widely-discussed topic in asoiaf fandom -- a fact that Martin (and everyone else) is keenly aware of -- why would one think that he'd not approve of such a significant R+L detail that discloses the name of the woman mentioned in Dany's HotU vision?

You can extrapolate from this bit of intel however you want, and it doesn't necessarily support that Jon is R&L's son, but to shit-can the veracity of this 'app fact' is asinine to me.

[Greymoon]

I suspect its more likely she stayed with Whents daughter at Harrenhal.

At Harrenhal yes, but why not with Ashara though?

As you said, Ashara served as a red-herring for Jon's mother; Ned as a red-herring for the father of Ashara's child. If we take that further and allow Brandon + Ashara as a true possibility; then it's not a stretch at all imo, to think Ashara stayed in the Riverlands too, so that she may see Brandon -- just as Lyanna did (to correspond with Rhaegar?)

...I'm tempted to say, Lyanna stayed officially in preparation to Brandon's wedding and to spend time with a friend -- serving as a alibi for Brandon visiting HH -- and unofficially, to attend the "emergency council v.2" hosted by brother Whent and co. :) Aerys did sort of party crash the emergency council v.1 so....

Also, in the absence of Rickard Stark and if there is any truth to the political purpose of the HH tourney, it would seem logical that Rhaegar would seek Brandon's support and confidence, no? But if Brandon was not at all open to Rhaegar's overturns, next in line would be Ned. But Ned was fostered with Jon Arryn, appears quiet, and dare I say, conventional -- Ned, does not appear the sort who would plot treason or go behind lord Rickard's back. Benjen was still a kid, so that leaves the young willful daughter of House Stark who could, they hoped, sway lord Rickard to their cause.

This borders on fanfiction, but only because we have no proof! I can see it as a very real possibility :P As to why Rhaegar left, if there was a council, one answer could simply be that he wanted to diffusion tensions, and needed to appear innocent for his father -- thus like a good son, he returned home -- but left his men in charge...

Was Elia part of the original plotting, even a master mind behind it? And no, I'm not at all speaking about any alleged obsession of Rhaegar's for prophecies and a three headed dragon. I'm speaking about a purely political plot, as has been rumored was the true purpose behind HH... what I'm proposing is that in this plot, Lyanna's role was to act as a middle man -- to help sway Rickard Stark to Rhaegar's cause -- and that Elia was aware of it. I'm proposing that Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love later, much later, while the rebellion was already underway, hence why Jon is younger than Robb.

This is, all in all, nothing new I think -- only it's not, to my knowledge been put together that same way.

So...Did Aerys get wind of the council v.2, forcing Rhaegar to ride back in haste? Did Rhaegar 'take' Lyanna only because there was no safe place for her, and he felt obliged to shelter her for a while until things settled? Did the falling in love part come only later, due to a forced proximity and shared quarters?

While some will say we have no proof that Rhagear was plotting anything -- I say, we do, and not only because the rumors were once again mentioned in WoIaF. IMO, Elia was as much a hostage for the loyalty of the Dornish as she was for Rhaegar. We now know that Elia and her children spent most of their time on Dragonstone, not in KL so it would seem that Aerys had them summoned upon Rhaegar's 'disappearance'.

By taking her and her children hostage, Aerys ensured that whatever plans Rhaegar had in motion were stopped, and the Prince literally crippled -- in particular if the Dornish were among his greatest allies.

This would answer the question/accusation of how Rhaegar could be both so stupid and self-centered that he left his humiliated wife and children with the mad king....in this scenario he didn't; and he didn't even elope with Lyanna; but rather, Rhaegar found himself having to take Lyanna with him, to the safety of Dorne, where he would prepare to act against his father -- until, news of Robert + Ned + Arryn raising their banners (against both Aerys and Rhaegar) and news of Elia being a hostage, reached them. (This does not exclude at all, that after having bedded Lyanna, Rhaegar chose to marry her; I'm only saying that a second marriage; or a mistress, did not in fact figure in Rhaegar's plans -- imo, the vision in the HotU is misleading and does not represent a true past event.)