What the hell did happen at Summerhall?

[Nictarion]

Egg the Squire and Aegon the Unlikely were not the same people.

They sound like were to me. Egg's whole reason for wanting dragons so bad was to help enforce his reforms and edicts to help the smallfolk.

[DreamSongs]

They sound like were to me. Egg's whole reason for wanting dragons so bad was to help enforce his reforms and edicts to help the smallfolk.

I don't disagree with that...but the insidious compulsion that led him to wanting to hatch dragons seemed to be more like 'If I had dragons like Aegon the Conqueror, they would not dare defy me'. How desperate was he to hatch those dragons? :dunno: Young Egg would never think such a thing...he would scorn the idea.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I really don't see how wanting to have dragons and trying to hatch dragon eggs, when dragons actually existed and were an effective weapon and you have a bunch of dragon eggs on hand, is exactly an "obsession". This is clearly a world of magic we're dealing with here. It seems that people ignore the more magical aspects of it at their own peril

[Vikingkingq]

I honestly think Aegon trying to conduct a blood sacrifice to rebirth the dragons fits. Egg was raised to genuinely care for the common folk, so much so that it was hugely damaging to him politically, he was trying to make Westeros a better place and the lords were stopping him out of selfish bigotry, and the result was increasing disorder and constant rebellions. It's the Edric Storm scenario - sacrifice one to save the world.

And it fits with the themes of the Targaryen family, both the coin flip between greatness and madness and the obsession with dragons that marked Aegon III, Baelon the Blessed, Aegon IV, Aerion Brightflame, etc. Here's Aegon, with the potential to be the greatest of the Targaryen monarchs, another Jaehaerys the Conciliator, who falls victim to the family curse and decides to do the wrong thing for the right reason - the road to hell being paved with good intentions, etc.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Aegon sent out missionaries to find any arcane information that they could to hatch dragons. Maybe 'obsessed' is a strong word; shall we say 'increasingly convinced'. And I don't think that Egg's children necessarily 'fucked up'; they simply chose to marry (or not) whom they wanted, just like their father did.

Egg the Squire and Aegon the Unlikely were not the same people.

Of course not because Egg was an squire and Aegon was a King. It's not uncommon for a King, or any kind of leader, to assure and reaffirm their power. Many nations nowadays have a display of weapons only to prove they are not to mess up with, in the medieval Westeros, that's a need.

Also, his children they did fuck up. Aegon got married with his eventual wife because he wasn't meant to be a King. But once he became King, his obligations, and his children's obligations, changed. If he had been meant to be a King since the beginning, he could have married a different woman, probably his own sister.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I suspect that Aegon's coin didn't land on heads or tails, madness or greatness. It simply never landed, and he was both mad and great by the end. I think Aegon burned down Summerhall on purpose, with the intent to hatch those dragons. His sacrifice somehow made it possible for Dany's dragons to be born later, and she'll liberate Westeros with her three dragons. Whatever liberation means in the context of this story.

[Lars Penry]

Damn, I'd never considered Egg might have tried to sacrifice Rhaegar to spawn Dragons. That feels right for some reason. Egg is still a child and while he seems empathetic and compassionate, his coin hasn't fallen yet.

What I can't buy is that Dunk would have any part of it, it is pretty clearly defined who he is and what he's about.

If there was anything like this going on, Dunk must have been in the dark, it might even have been his fault the plan failed and betrayed Egg to save Rhaegar.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Damn, I'd never considered Egg might have tried to sacrifice Rhaegar to spawn Dragons. That feels right for some reason. Egg is still a child and while he seems empathetic and compassionate, his coin hasn't fallen yet.

What I can't buy is that Dunk would have any part of it, it is pretty clearly defined who he is and what he's about.

If there was anything like this going on, Dunk must have been in the dark, it might even have been his fault the plan failed and betrayed Egg to save Rhaegar.

I theorize that Dunk wasn't aware and resolved to do what he could to stop the entire ordeal. This is probably why Jaehaerys survived.

[Lars Penry]

I theorize that Dunk wasn't aware and resolved to do what he could to stop the entire ordeal. This is probably why Jaehaerys survived.

I agree, I imagine he is responsible for Rhaegar's survival as well, I imagine he got them all out.

[Ser Lepus]

If Lightbringer is a metaphor of dragons, you would have to offer a loved one as sacrifice.

I think it's implied that hatching live eggs wasn't that difficult, Targayren kids just carried them around at all times and slept with them, and draconic parents incubated them by themselves too.

The difficult part is to hatch old, dead dragon eggs. That would require the sacrifice of a loved one, the sacrifice of royal blood, the sacrifice of a magician, and the presence of an unborn foetus of royal/Targayren blood.

It seems that Egg figured at least part of the ritual, and tried to do it at Summerhall. Rhaegar was there as an unborn baby, to play the part of Rhaego. Egg may have thought that unborn Rhaegar could play the part of loved one and royal blood as well (he was trying to hatch a single egg). But something went wrong, and Summerhall exploded in flames.

Mmmm...maybe the Targayrens had a secret egg-hatching valyrian magic ritual that demanded the sacrifice of an unborn prince, a mage and a king?
I guess both Rhaegar (who was born at Summerhall) and his child (Jon?) who was born at the Tower of Joy could quality for the unborn prince part, and a mage could be tricked, captured and sacrificed, but, who played the part of king in both cases?
Could Rhaegar be planning to kill his own father? Maybe Egg was very ill when Summerhall burned, and planned to die in a way that left his heir some brand new dragons?

I think the truth of what happened at Summerhall will be one of the big shocks to come, both for readers and characters. What we know was happening there (a big fire, magic users [pyromancers] were present, a Targayren princess with a little prince in her belly, royal blood present...etc.) has a lot in common with the scene where Daenerys hatches her "children".

I suspect that Egg was trying to perform a magical ritual that was very similar to what Daenerys did, but while Egg was willing to sacrifice himself in the pire (like Khal Drogo), the pyromancers weren't eager to be burn in the pire (like Mirri Maz Duur), and some members of the family may have objected sacrificing the baby in Rhaelle's belly.

He needed king's blood for the sacrifice....Maybe he grabbed some Blackfyre kept captive in the black cells?

[BearQueen87]

Dunk saved Jaehaerys and Rhaella, and then went back for Egg but couldn't save him--maybe because Egg wouldn't let him? Yeah, the ending of the D and E novella is going to be very depressing...

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Slanderous nonsense! Egg would never.

Agreed. Swear that I will burn all of my books, TWOIAF, and all the D&E tales if my Egg was a baby killer. :(

[complexphoenix]

Varys stole the real eggs and replaced them with fake ones containing wildfire within.

Summerhall happened too early for Varys to be involved. He only came to Westeros late in Aerys's reign.

[glamourweaver]

Varys stole the real eggs and replaced them with fake ones containing wildfire within.

Too early for Varys I think - but I know Pycelle is a strong suspect. It would play into the Maesters anti-dragons conspiracy.

[complexphoenix]

There's also a theory that Summerhall was a plot by Aerys and Tywin to assassinate Egg and clear the way for Aerys to become King. I think it's a possibility, though it will have to be revised in light of TWOIAF.

[Ulthosian Stark]

We talk about Red Wedding V2, I have a feeling the Red Wedding is going to be more like Summerhall V2.

Of course Dunk did something, he's epic, awesome, and doesn't seem to have an ounce of cowardice in the face of danger.

I hope he saved people then disappeared, secretly retired to Tarth, to avoid Aerys and Tywin. Briennes grandfather?

[Mithras]

Too early for Varys I think - but I know Pycelle is a strong suspect. It would play into the Maesters anti-dragons conspiracy.

Varys might be at the age of Arya during 259 and if he was at least as trained as her, he could do it. In the Mystery Knight, a comic dwarf stole the dragon egg and at the same time, it was implied that a child could have done that too.

[Lord Varys]

Come on, we know that pyromancers and wildfire were there, as a part of the whole ritual.

TWoIaF makes it also less likely that Varys/Illyrio have anything to do with events around Summerhall or the War of the Ninepenny Kings, as we have now a date for the exile of the Tattered Prince (262 AC), and it makes very little sense to assume that Varys/Illyrio have anything to do with that, either, if we keep in mind that Varys only joined Aerys' court thus late in his reign, after the Defiance of Duskendale.

If Varys/Illyrio already had the resources/manpower/means to pull off great operations like sabotaging Summerhall or arranging the Tattered Prince's election to Prince of Pentos in 262 AC, it is very strange that they effectively continued to sit on their asses for nearly two decades (until Varys became Master of Whisperers).

[Mithras]

I never suggested that Varys and Illyrio worked together at Summerhal.

A possible scenario of mine is that Varys is the son of Maegor Targaryen and he inherited much of Aerion's hatred along with an exceptional cunning and skill. For me, it is possible that he was present as a member of the family, sabotaged the event and faked his death. Then, he fled to Essos and possibly took part in Wot9PK at the Blackfyre side during which he met with Illyrio. After the defeat, they started to plot together.

[Hardstone]

Some really interesting ideas in this thread.

My own pet theory is that Duncan was the "betrayer" because he defied Egg on a point of contention but by the time sense was won back it was too late. Dunk's honour is preserved by the survivors. Selmy may have been witness to these conversations in the aftermath.

Does anyone think Betha was still around for Summerhall? I imagine she would pull the reigns on Egg if she was alive but his obsession sounds like he had no one to tell him not too.

Hallyne said that the pyromancers were akin to maesters once upon a time. TWOI&F being written by a maester would probably ignore this. Could it be that Egg confided in the guild with this special task or did he just place an order for the green stuff?