What the hell did happen at Summerhall?

[complexphoenix]

Olenna/the Redwynes could not have possibly have broken dared breaking a betrothal to a royal prince. That would have been disobedience ... or even treason.

Sure, Olenna could - for some reason - have manipulated Daeron into dumping her, but there is really no indication that she did that (nor do I see a motivation for such an action).

Daeron was second in line to the Iron Throne, and if the Ghost had not come up with her prophecy, Olenna could have pushed that her children by Daeron marry Jaehaerys' heirs. Hell, if Jaehaerys and Shaera had only had daughters, a son of Daeron and Olenna could have even sat the Iron Throne...

Only if Daeron actually bedded her, and since he was gay there was a substantial risk he wouldn't. If Olenna married Daeron she ran a substantial risk of being childless, or of having her children shunted down behind those of Jaehaerys. Luthor Tyrell was a much less risky bet, for a potential reward that wasn't much smaller.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Only if Daeron actually bedded her, and since he was gay there was a substantial risk he wouldn't. If Olenna married Daeron she ran a substantial risk of being childless, or of having her children shunted down behind those of Jaehaerys. Luthor Tyrell was a much less risky bet, for a potential reward that wasn't much smaller.

Luthro Tyrell is... whilst the best marriage for her, quite a bit smaller then a Targaryen marriage (although Targaryen marriages... are of a different kind).

Daeron can bed her, he isn't show!Renly. It isn't that hard to work it up and put it in if heirs is what was required.

Something about "I may prefer the taste of hippocras but when good ale is put in front of me I quaff it anyway," can't remember who said it, but it was in the series.

[SeanF]

Luthro Tyrell is... whilst the best marriage for her, quite a bit smaller then a Targaryen marriage (although Targaryen marriages... are of a different kind).

Daeron can bed her, he isn't show!Renly. It isn't that hard to work it up and put it in if heirs is what was required.

Something about "I may prefer the taste of hippocras but when good ale is put in front of me I quaff it anyway," can't remember who said it, but it was in the series.

Cersei said "A man might prefer hippocras, but place a flagon of ale before him, and he'd still quaff from it"

Then there was the Grand Maester, who was asked about Ser Laenor's lack of interest in women, when he was to be married to Rhaenyra "I have no love for fish. I still eat it when it's set before me."

[Dragon Roast]

The fragment doesn't say that.

It says, "...died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman..." I think we can reasonably conclude that the original sentence read that "[somebody] would have died, but for the valor of the Lord Commander." So Dunk clearly saved somebody. But we don't know who. Anyone who was present at Summerhall and survived is a possibility, and Dunk could have saved more than one. Confirmed survivors of Summerhall include Jaehaerys, Shaera, Aerys, Rhaella, Rhaegar, and the Ghost of High Heart, and there are others who may have been present as well. The idea that Egg commanded Dunk to do this is not stated or implied anywhere. I know I'm hairsplitting, but it seems to me that a lot of people are drawing unwarranted conclusions from that sentence fragment.

We also do not know if the person that Dunk saved actually lived. He could have saved somebody who died later or almost immediately after they were saved. Truth is--we have no idea. We only have conjecture, hunches and our best guess of the moment.

The fragments are pretty great as they say almost nothing, but in a way that could be used to support almost anything.

Well done GRRM, well done.

[Lord Varys]

Still the idea that Olenna was the driving force behind the broken betrothal is a little bit far-fetched. For that we would have to assume that Olenna and Daeron actually spent time together or interacted much with each other while they were betrothed - and there is nothing suggesting that this was the case. But only if it was the case would we have the chance to assume that Olenna had any influence whatsoever over Daeron.

It is pretty clear that it was Prince Daeron who officially ended the betrothal, not Olenna Redwyne.

I'm also not inclined to believe that Olenna was the one who arranged her marriage to Luthor Tyrell. That would have been their respective families. The sign is that both spurned families spurned by the Targaryens decided to strengthen their own ties to each other, possibly resulting in another crisis for the Iron Throne.

It would make much more sense that present-day Olenna was a woman shaped by her past rather than a woman who was actually always a cunning manipulator.

I'm pretty sure her own dismissal of Loras - both as a good man and a good husband - is an echo of her own non-existent relationship with Daeron Targaryen.

Prior to the breaking of the betrothal Olenna and her family most certainly believed that Daeron would be smart enough to actually father a child on Olenna after they had married - and Olenna may have even believed that he could love her, if she was in love with him (which is a not so unreasonable assumption, considering that Prince Daeron was effectively everything a woman could hope for in a man in a society like Westeros...).

[Mithras]

“Aye, so best get busy. You’ve more graves to dig, lunk. Eight for them and one for me and one for old Ser Useless, and one last one for your bald-head boy.”

The spade slipped from Dunk’s hands. “Egg,” he cried, “run! We have to run! ” But the sands were giving way beneath their feet. When the boy tried to scramble from the hole, its crumbling sides gave way and collapsed. Dunk saw the sands wash over Egg, burying him as he opened his mouth to shout. He tried to fight his way to him, but the sands were rising all around him, pulling him down into the grave, filling his mouth, his nose, his eyes . . .

Eight: Ser Arlan, Baelor Breakspear, Valarr, Big Rob the simpleton, Treb, Wet Wat, old Lem, red-eyed Pate

One: Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield

Ser Useless: Ser Eustace Osgrey

Bald-head boy: Egg

As dusk deepened, flies and stinging midges came swarming off the lake. The flies preferred to plague their horses, but the midges had a taste for man flesh. The only way to keep from being bitten was to sit close to the fire, breathing smoke. Cook or be devoured, Dunk thought glumly, now there’s a beggar’s choice. He scratched at his arms and edged closer to the fire.

“What do you know of Egg?”

“I know that eggs do well to stay out of frying pans,” said Plumm. “Whitewalls is not a healthy place for the boy.”

Could be clues to Summerhal.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

The idea that Tywin and Aerys caused Summerhall makes no sense whatsoever to me. They had neither the motive nor were they competent enough.

The guy who became King in 3 years had no motive? Is it confirmed Duncan or his offspring would have no claim to the Iron Throne?

[married to winterfell]

I've long thought that Dunk "betrays" egg (the crown) to save innocent people. He exiles himself to the wall, and eventually becomes Coldhands. His giants blood prevented him from becoming a full wight.

[Sanset]

Olenna/the Redwynes could not have possibly have broken dared breaking a betrothal to a royal prince. That would have been disobedience ... or even treason.

Sure, Olenna could - for some reason - have manipulated Daeron into dumping her, but there is really no indication that she did that (nor do I see a motivation for such an action).

Daeron was second in line to the Iron Throne, and if the Ghost had not come up with her prophecy, Olenna could have pushed that her children by Daeron marry Jaehaerys' heirs. Hell, if Jaehaerys and Shaera had only had daughters, a son of Daeron and Olenna could have even sat the Iron Throne...

:agree: I totally agree.

Olenna's version of the story is a typical case of unreliable character. Besides, she said that to Sansa who was put aside by Joffrey to marry another. Anyway, I have to say that I believed her when I was reading ASoS, I thought she might have done something cunning to change the Targaryen heir mind. That story being a lie from her is a picture that totally makes sense.

Only if Daeron actually bedded her, and since he was gay there was a substantial risk he wouldn't. If Olenna married Daeron she ran a substantial risk of being childless, or of having her children shunted down behind those of Jaehaerys. Luthor Tyrell was a much less risky bet, for a potential reward that wasn't much smaller.

There are gay kings that have been married with a woman and they have children together. Like Edward II of England, for example. He married Isabella of France. Edward and Isabella had four children. So, the risk of being childless is not a big deal, really.

The fragments are pretty great as they say almost nothing, but in a way that could be used to support almost anything.

:agree: Totally agree! Those lines are too cryptic.GRRM likes to play with riddles.

[Ulthosian Stark]

I've long thought that Dunk "betrays" egg (the crown) to save innocent people. He exiles himself to the wall, and eventually becomes Coldhands. His giants blood prevented him from becoming a full wight.

Added to head canon lol I really like this explanation

[complexphoenix]

Olenna's version of the story is a typical case of unreliable character. Besides, she said that to Sansa who was put aside by Joffrey to marry another. Anyway, I have to say that I believed her when I was reading ASoS, I thought she might have done something cunning to change the Targaryen heir mind. That story being a lie from her is a picture that totally makes sense.

There are gay kings that have been married with a woman and they have children together. Like Edward II of England, for example. He married Isabella of France. Edward and Isabella had four children. So, the risk of being childless is not a big deal, really.

I suppose it could be unreliable, but I really see no reason to disbelieve her. Even in her youth, she may well have been smart enough to realize that Daeron was not the kind of man she wanted to marry. So what if Daeron was a prince? He was still gay and was not heir to anything, and may have had other traits, not listed in the text, that gave her pause.

I never said there was no chance he'd bed her, I said there was a substantial risk. (I get really, really tired sometimes of carefully choosing my words for accuracy, only to have them ignored, and watch people attack a statement that I took care not to say.) Laenor seems to have never bedded Rhaenyra, and she was able to have children anyway only because she outranked him. Olenna would not have that option. If she cheated on Daeron and got caught she'd be executed as a traitor. Why would she want to take the chance of landing herself in a situation where her only options would be childlessness and treason? Luthor Tyrell clearly offered much less risk and a greater reward.

[Sanset]

I didn't want to go off topic so I didn't press the matter, but if you felt that I didn't read carefully I can try to explain myself. I interpreted "substantial" to mean "a very large possibility". I disagree with that because it is a "risk" to be childless but not a big one.

I've read "substantial risk". That would mean "a big risk" to put it in a crude way. So, I disagree with that point because there are lots of gay guys that have babies with women. I get that they may not like it but they do it because they want to have children, in this case of "blood of the dragon" obsessive people is not just cute children, they want heirs. To show an open example on the matter: Bethenny Frankel in the early episodes of RHONY made a deal with her hairdresser, who is a gay guy, that if she was forty and not married and without children, they both would get married and have a baby, and he could do whatever he wanted and she would not complain about it. She was about 37 I don't remember exactly. Soon after that she met another guy, they married and have a baby girl, then they divorced. The point is, it happens, gay guys have babies with women. Of course, there are lots that wouldn't do it.

I believed Olenna when she said that she didn't wanted to marry a Targaryen and I thought that maybe the guy was like Aerion or Joffrey. But, given the new info in the world book, I changed my mind and I think she lied about it. I think it is more plausible that she is sour because she was dumped, that would hurt her ego. I seems that she is very fond of power and money, so that would hurt not only her pride, but also her greedy ways. That would be good enough motive for naming her Queen of Thrones instead of Queen of Roses.

What she said about her husband and the way she talks about her son does not show a lot of sweet loving wife and mother picture. So I could infer she did not really care about romantic matters. That makes me think she would marry anyone with the right amount of power. She looked quite good when she first appears in ASoS, she was trying to protect her granddaughter from Joffrey, but she didn't keep looking very nice when the pages passed by. Even more, she made her granddaughter marry three times, one of them with a gay guy. It seems that wasn't an issue for her. Twice, with Cersei and Jaimes children. That looks like she doesn't really care about romance. I think she was very much pissed off with the Targaryens when she was dumped and she still holds a grudge about it. I might be wrong, but these opinions are not coming out of the blue.

[complexphoenix]

I didn't want to go off topic so I didn't press the matter, but if you felt that I didn't read carefully I can try to explain myself. I interpreted "substantial" to mean "a very large possibility". I disagree with that because it is a "risk" to be childless but not a big one.

I've read "substantial risk". That would mean "a big risk" to put it in a crude way. So, I disagree with that point because there are lots of gay guys that have babies with women. I get that they may not like it but they do it because they want to have children, in this case of "blood of the dragon" obsessive people is not just cute children, they want heirs. To show an open example on the matter: Bethenny Frankel in the early episodes of RHONY made a deal with her hairdresser, who is a gay guy, that if she was forty and not married and without children, they both would get married and have a baby, and he could do whatever he wanted and she would not complain about it. She was about 37 I don't remember exactly. Soon after that she met another guy, they married and have a baby girl, then they divorced. The point is, it happens, gay guys have babies with women. Of course, there are lots that wouldn't do it.

I believed Olenna when she said that she didn't wanted to marry a Targaryen and I thought that maybe the guy was like Aerion or Joffrey. But, given the new info in the world book, I changed my mind and I think she lied about it. I think it is more plausible that she is sour because she was dumped, that would hurt her ego. I seems that she is very fond of power and money, so that would hurt not only her pride, but also her greedy ways. That would be good enough motive for naming her Queen of Thrones instead of Queen of Roses.

What she said about her husband and the way she talks about her son does not show a lot of sweet loving wife and mother picture. So I could infer she did not really care about romantic matters. That makes me think she would marry anyone with the right amount of power. She looked quite good when she first appears in ASoS, she was trying to protect her granddaughter from Joffrey, but she didn't keep looking very nice when the pages passed by. Even more, she made her granddaughter marry three times, one of them with a gay guy. It seems that wasn't an issue for her. Twice, with Cersei and Jaimes children. That looks like she doesn't really care about romance. I think she was very much pissed off with the Targaryens when she was dumped and she still holds a grudge about it. I might be wrong, but these opinions are not coming out of the blue.

I think the risk was much bigger than you are making it out to be, big enough to justify Olenna not wanting to marry Daeron, especially when you add it to the fact that Daeron was not an heir while Luthor was, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Daeron might not have been crazy-horrible like Aerion, but he was still gay and he was not heir to anything, which are not things you want in a husband. As a warrior, as a prince, as a son he was fine, but Olenna was going to be his wife, and she had good reasons not to want him.

I read Olenna's comments at her dinner with Sansa very differently, and I think you are missing the game she was playing. She spoke with a specific objective: get Sansa to tell the truth about Joffrey. By bad-mouthing a bunch of men she'd known in her life, including several to whom she would be expected to display affection and loyalty (Luthor, Mace, Loras, Renly) she was modeling the behavior that she wanted from Sansa. She played that conversation like a master, and she got what she wanted. Given that her words about those men were strategic in nature, I don't think they can or should be taken to mean that she didn't love or care about them.

Margaery's marriages were Mace's work, not Olenna's. She specifically tells us that Mace is the one who wants to make Margaery a queen, and that she opposed the match with Renly but Mace didn't listen to her. Highgarden belongs to Mace, not her, and as such her power is limited. She has a significant amount of influence (as demonstrated by her persuading Mace to reject the Willas/Cersei match), but Mace is not her puppet.

[Ser Lepus]

About Daeron and Olenna: I want to remind you that Daeron Targaryen didn't marry anybody. It wasn't a matter of rejecting Olenna, he didn't want to marry at all.

That points to him rejecting the engagement. Olenna claims that she rejected him, but we know that he didn't want to marry at all.

Daeron rejected marriage and got away with it, we are 100 % sure.

Olenna, on the other hand, claims that she rejected Daeron, but she may be sincere or may be lying, we don't know. Anyways, she didn't need to reject him, because he didn't want to marry at all. Regardless of Olenna feelings, she didn't have to resist any pressure from her parents to marry the Targaryen prince, because he broke the marriage pact on his own.

She didn't have a choice to accept or reject him, because he didn't gave her that choice in first place.

By comparision, think of Olenna as a girl who says "they wanted to make me eat pudding, but I hate it and wouldn't have it, and I managed to eat cake instead", and we later learn that there wasn't any pudding on the table that day.

[complexphoenix]

Olenna doesn't say she rejected Daeron outright, she says she "put an end to it", leaving her methods unspecified. I believe she gave Daeron the idea of rejecting her. Because Daeron outranked her and her father was still around, she wasn't in a position to reject the match directly, so she had to resort to subtler means.

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason to believe that 18-year-old Olenna Redwyne was already a master manipulator. In fact, her marriage to Luthor suggests that Mace's ambition to marry his children in the royal family goes back to her and Luthor's failure to do so.

And thus we should seriously consider that Luthor and Olenna both were/are as ambitious as Mace is right now. Olenna just does not let it show all that much...

[complexphoenix]

She didn't need to be a master, she just needed to be good enough to persuade a gay man that, if his brothers could blow off their arranged marriages, so could he. An easier trick than persuading Sansa to spill the beans about Joffrey... but as it happens, Margaery is 16 and already pretty skilled, so there's no reason to think Olenna wasn't a good manipulator at that age.

As for Luthor, he did indeed have his promised princess ripped away from him, and was probably quite miffed about it. He may well have shared his frustration with his son, which may well have contributed to Mace's later ambitions.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, but why can't Olenna be a sort of innocent girl which was actually in love with Daeron, got dumped, and eventually grew somewhat bitter and, in the process, more politically savvy. Olenna Redwyne should, like every character in the series, be formed by her own biography rather than being already in charge of everything as a child/young girl.

And there is a small hint in that direction - the moniker 'Queen of Thorns' clearly is a hint to Olenna's dissolved marriage, and she does not actually seem to like, hinting at the fact that she did neither like being dumped, nor not becoming queen (or a princess by marriage).

[Fjordgazer]

Did i miss something? Has Prince Daeron been confirmed as gay? Is he "Loras-style" confirmed? Or just by inference from the text?

[complexphoenix]

Yeah, but why can't Olenna be a sort of innocent girl which was actually in love with Daeron, got dumped, and eventually grew somewhat bitter and, in the process, more politically savvy. Olenna Redwyne should, like every character in the series, be formed by her own biography rather than being already in charge of everything as a child/young girl.

And there is a small hint in that direction - the moniker 'Queen of Thorns' clearly is a hint to Olenna's dissolved marriage, and she does not actually seem to like, hinting at the fact that she did neither like being dumped, nor not becoming queen (or a princess by marriage).

Why not? I'll tell you why not - there's no evidence. This view of Young Olenna is pure speculation. We have her word that she herself "put an end" to her Targaryen betrothal, and TWOIAF tells us enough about her betrothed to give us the reason why. I see no reason, none at all, to disbelieve Olenna's word.

Did i miss something? Has Prince Daeron been confirmed as gay? Is he "Loras-style" confirmed? Or just by inference from the text?

The text says that "there appears to have been no other woman", that Daeron never wed, and that he "preferred the companionship of Ser Jeremy Norridge", the two of them having been squires together in the past. This isn't a smoking gun as such, but it sure sounds like gay to me.