Robb as King: Vainglorious Young Wolf or Tragic Hero?

[Chaircat Meow]

Some posters see Robb as a disastrously bad politician. Others see him as a tragic hero, undone by one single error of judgement. Still more see Robb as a flawless hero, brought down only by plot contrivance. This thread is intended as an analysis and discussion of Robb’s leadership, both as a king and a general. It aims is to discover just how flawed a ruler Robb really was.

The Young Wolf and The Young Dragon

Robb was the Young Wolf to his allies and his enemies but there is another ‘Young’ general and conqueror in the series: Daeron I Targaryen, the Young Dragon. Daeron I is important for an assessment of Robb because GrrM has gone to some pains to highlight the parallels between the two precocious generals.

Daeron was one year younger than Robb when he invaded Dorne. His invasion of Dorne and his eventual demise have obviously intentional parallels with events in Robb’s career. Both Daeron and Robb use unsafe goat tracks to circumvent border defences, in Dorne and in the Westerlands respectively. Daeron used a fleet under Oakenfist to subdue Dorne by sailing up the Green Blood, while Robb wanted to use Balon Greyjoy’s ships to attack Lannisport while he invaded the west.

See spoiler

Twoiaf Spoiler

And, like the Lannisters did with Robb, the Dornish eventually bumped off Daeron by breaking a sacred taboo. They nobbled him by murdering him under a peace banner.

Yet Daeron I is not presented positively by GrrM. He is the vainglorious boy king, who did not know war is not a game. This is said directly to Jon Snow, who idolized Daeron, by Benjen Stark at the very beginning of the series. Daeron lost 10,000 men conquering Dorne and many more trying to hold it. The Dornish were eventually brought into the realm by other, decidedly less martial, and less superficially impressive figures, like Baelor I and Daeron II. Both Tyrion and Stannis make remarks that are implicitly disparaging of Daeron, in SoS and DwD respectively. Daeron seems to represent both the glamour and the folly of war. Despite his brilliance Daeron is a testament to youthful folly.

Is Robb a Daeron figure then? To see if GrrM wants to draw the comparison between Robb and Daeron strongly let’s examine Robb’s short career as a king.

The Accidental King: Robb as King in the North

Robb clearly never intended to become king. He was declared the sovereign of the North and the Riverlands at what looks to have been a general war council, held at Riverrun, after the Tully banners had returned there. His kingship represented a stumbling block to alliances with Stannis and Renly, and to peace with the Lannisters, and was a clear enlargement of the Stark’s initial war aims.

The fact he was made king of both the North and the Riverlands was a particular problem. The Starks could almost be seen as de facto northern kings anyway, and some southern rulers, like Renly, were prepared to allow them the title, on the proviso homage and fealty were sworn. In other words, upgrading the Starks from Lords Paramount to vassal kings was not unthinkable. However, the riverlands were likely to be another question altogether. It is very unlikely anyone would be willing to see them fall out of the realm ruled by the Iron Throne. Robb’s kingship likely brought him perpetual war with the South.

Is it right to say this turn of events was Robb’s own fault? The answer is yes.

Although Robb never asked to be king he did refuse to consider peace with the Lannisters, or alliance with, and submission to Renly. In the war council Robb will not countenance a truce with the Queen when it is proposed by Ser Stevron, unsheathing his sword instead, and declaring, ‘This is the only peace I have for Lannisters.’ Robb would not consider Renly because of his curious ‘honourable’ rigidity wrt the succession. Given the absence of any lead from him, the Greatjon proclaimed him king.

However, GrrM does not really present Robb’s assumption of the kingship as a mistake that led to Robb’s demise. It is clearly something that, in the fullness of time, could (and probably would) have caused Robb big problems. But it seems unlikely it altered much in the immediate term. It is of course possible if Robb had declared for Renly, Renly would have moved towards King’s Landing more quickly than he did. This might have brought him into contact with the Lannisters before he could respond to Stannis and so altered the course of the war.

Next we will examine an aspect of Robb’s leadership more commonly cited as proof of his ineptitude.

Robb’s Nemesis: Balon Greyjoy

The dispatch of Theon Greyjoy to treat with his father for aid in the Stark war against the Lannisters is often touted as the second most egregious and foolish of Robb’s follies. It is thought that the Ironborn might not have attacked the North had the Starks still had a Greyjoy hostage. Moreover, even if the attack had happened, so long as Theon was not with the Greyjoys, Winterfell would not have fallen. In this way Robb’s decision to send Theon to treat with his father, because he liked Theon as a friend, can be seen as an obvious example of Robb’s ineptitude.

GrrM might be thought to drive the point home, because Cat warns against the plan. Keeping Theon close as leverage against Balon was also Ned’s policy in the event of a war with the Lannisters (from whom Robb probably derived his idea about a land-sea attack on the west). Did Robb’s careless dispatch of Theon doom him?

There is actually no evidence having Theon as a hostage in Stark hands would have swayed Balon. Balon mustered his longships as soon he heard Robb declared King in the North, long before Theon was said to be on his way back. Balon was not waiting for Theon’s return to move, as when Theon arrived ships were still expected from Old Wyck. It is very unlikely the order to muster all the ships would have been given unless Balon intended to attack no matter what.

Therefore dispatching Theon did not doom Robb in any way. Of course, Theon did take Winterfell and if he had been at Robb’s side that would not have happened. However, the loss of Winterfell should be attributed more to Rodrick’s errors than Robb. There were enough men to defend one of the strongest castles in the North, and Theon’s attack was not something Robb could have ever predicted. Robb would have needed to go back North anyway once the Ironborn attacked, so Theon or no Theon, his southern campaign would have been derailed by Balon.

Robb and Theon did not think out their pitch to Balon very well. Theon clearly said the wrong things. Balon needed to know Theon was an Ironborn, not a Stark ‘greenlander’ and dressing wrongly and calling Robb a brother set Theon back. Yet Balon did still invite him to his war council, called him his son (along with Asha) and gave him men and ships. Theon’s plan, as presented to Balon, was very foolish, involving as it did the quick fall of the Golden Tooth (in reality Robb went around it) and potentially the fall of the near un-takeable Casterly Rock. It is no surprise Balon dismissed Theon’s pitch, as it was truly bad.

However, Theon was never going to convince Balon, so the failure of Robb and Theon to sell their idea more effectively did not determine Robb’s fate. This was not because of plot contrivance as many believe. Balon did not possess a curious and irrational hatred of Ned Stark as many think; he was motived by purely rational considerations and he wanted to attack the North to regain for the Ironborn permanent overseas lands (they did once hold Bear Island and Flint’s Finger) and thought he would never be allowed to keep the west. If he failed in taking the west it had the resources and proximity to invade the iron islands. If he did take it, the men of the Reach would not let him hold it given its great wealth. The North, on the other, was different.

Overall, in his dealings with the Ironborn, Robb made no mistake that sealed his doom. His attack on the west would have been much more effective with the ships. I do not see Balon responding well to the kind of hostage blackmail Ned wanted to pull.

‘Love, lust and honour:’ Robb, Jeyne Westerling and the folly of a boy king.

So far we have seen that neither Robb’s kingship, nor his dealings with the Ironborn, made him a terrible politician. However, his decision to marry Jeyne Westerling was undeniably a blunder of the first order. If this was Robb’s only mistake then he emerges as a classic tragic hero, doomed not through any vice or depravity, but by an understandable error of judgment.

It is not true Walder Frey would have turned on Robb anyway, regardless of Robb’s conduct. This theory has been doing the rounds and it is flat out wrong. GrrM himself says it is wrong.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

Walder Frey was only prepared to violate guest rite because he was driven into a peevish fury by Robb’s spurning of his daughter and his house. The Freys, absent the insult, might have closed their gates on Robb as he tried to head North, if that. Robb still held Harrenhal at this time, so a major Tyrell-Lannister assault towards the Ruby Ford and Harrenhal would have been required to stop him returning North, assuming Lord Walder plucked up the courage to defy him.

If Robb had reached Moat Cailin he would certainly have won his way back to the North, because most of the force Victarion had at the Moat had already left. Once home Robb would have easily driven out the Ironborn and, assuming the Purple Wedding still proceeded as it did, the Lannisters would fall into disarray. The Iron Bank would likely turn to Robb, not Stannis, if Cersei reneged on the debt. Robb’s position in SoS was bad, but not hopeless, especially seeing as the Lannister-Tyrell position was very fragile.

Conclusion

It would appear that Robb is meant as a classic tragic hero. He was not a foolish or vainglorious king, like Daeron, or a bad politician, as he is often supposed to be, but a precocious boy king who did his best in the circumstances, but whose love and honour gave his enemies the opportunity to destroy him. The plot was not stacked against him in the sense he had to die no matter what he did. He determined his fate when he married Jeyne.

[Lord of Nutella]

Aprroved.

[Bironic]

I think there is one principal difference between the two characters: Daeron I attacked dorne without having a cause. His motives were glory, greed, fame, lust for power.

Robb on the other hand went south to free Eddard Stark, he wasn't going south to make himself more powerful/famous or crown himself king. His motives in the first place were the Tully words: Family, Duty, Honor. He had a cause to "invade/free" the riverlands. That makes Robb much more sympathetic than Daeron.

Doesn't make him a better politician though.

[Lee-Sensei]

The simple fact that Robb was willing to continue fighting... throwing away the lives of his men in a foolish quest for vengeance while the fields went untended after it was clear that he'd already lost is enough to make him a bad King.

You're also putting a lot of the blame on Theon. Honestly, I think Robb writing that he'd "give" Balon a crown had as much if not an even greater effect on Balon.

[KingBlackfyre]

I think there is one principal difference between the two characters: Daeron I attacked dorne without having a cause. His motives were glory, greed, fame, lust for power.

Robb on the other hand went south to free Eddard Stark, he wasn't going south to make himself more powerful/famous or crown himself king. His motives in the first place were the Tully words: Family, Duty, Honor. He had a cause to "invade/free" the riverlands.

That makes Robb much more sympathetic than Daeron.

I keep hearing that but dorne wasn't just a peaceful neighbor they were directly going against the iron throne on at least two occasions , supporting the vulture king and attacking daemon and corlys army. It was less a peace then a Cold War daeron had a reason to attack dorne and integrate them into the realm and he only failed because dorne broke a sacred rite of war

[Lord Lannister]

The simple fact that Robb was willing to continue fighting... throwing away the lives of his men in a foolish quest for vengeance while the fields went untended after it was clear that he'd already lost is enough to make him a bad King.

You're also putting a lot of the blame on Theon. Honestly, I think Robb writing that he'd "give" Balon a crown had as much if not an even greater effect on Balon.

The Lannisters weren't going to offer peace short of their heads on pikes. You can call Robb a bad king for a lot of things, not keeping it in his pants, his mishandling of the Greyjoys or his political naivete, but not for fighting the war. Joffrey already made it clear there was going to be no peace short of their heads on pikes and by behading Ned he already proven that any contract wouldn't be honored anyways.

You do have a point, or part of one, with the letter he sent to Balon. Though part of that blame can shift on Theon too. He should've spoken up saying something to the effect of maybe you should word it differently. He did spend the first ten years of his life as an Ironborn so he should have SOME idea of what makes them tick. Wording the letter to the effect of "I have claimed my crown from the Lannisters and invite you to claim yours along side me." or something like that might have had a better effect. Or might not have, Balon did seem to have it out for the North for prior slights.

[Barty]

I mostly agree except for the part that Balon's plan was rational or logical. You say that the IB could have never been able to hold the west - probably true but its equally true for the North. There is no way the IB can hold the Northern mainland - Bear Island maybe since the Starks lack a fleet to retake the Island - but Bear Island is always vary of the IB and seems to have left quite a few defenders behind(not to menton their women) which would have made conquest difficult.

But apart from Bear Island the IB cannot hope to hold any northern territory and oddly enough Balon leaves Bear Island alone. The IB probably held Flints finger for a long time only because the Starks had no access to it - MC was the last of the northern lands to bend the knee to the Starks and only after getting the neck can the Starks access Flint's finger.

In short holding Northern lands is impossible in the long term for the IB. At least by invading the west they come out of it rich.

[Barty]

The simple fact that Robb was willing to continue fighting... throwing away the lives of his men in a foolish quest for vengeance while the fields went untended after it was clear that he'd already lost is enough to make him a bad King.

You're also putting a lot of the blame on Theon. Honestly, I think Robb writing that he'd "give" Balon a crown had as much if not an even greater effect on Balon.

It wasnt clear to him. And isnt to me either.

[TheWanderer]

The simple fact that Robb was willing to continue fighting... throwing away the lives of his men in a foolish quest for vengeance while the fields went untended after it was clear that he'd already lost is enough to make him a bad King.

When was it clear he'd lost?

[Bironic]

I keep hearing that but dorne wasn't just a peaceful neighbor they were directly going against the iron throne on at least two occasions , supporting the vulture king and attacking daemon and corlys army. It was less a peace then a Cold War daeron had a reason to attack dorne and integrate them into the realm and he only failed because dorne broke a sacred rite of war

The war on the stepstones was also quite an offensive war, the dornish could argue that they were just defending their borders/interests (the stepstones are near to dorne). AFAIK The war of the vulture king was in the reign of Aegon the conqueror, almost 100 years before Daeron I and after the attempt of Aegon to conquer dorne (you reap what you sow). Not exactly what I would call a cause of war for Daeron I. During Aegon II & III the dornish remained quite peaceful.

[Lee-Sensei]

It was clear that he'd lost when he was outnumbered, Winterfell was in ruins, his heirs were dead, Sansa was married to a Lannister, he had to abandon the Riverlands to fend for themselves against the combined might of the Tyrells and the Lannisters, the Greyjoys were running amuck in the North and blocking his path back to the North, Stannis was defeated, they lost the Karstarks, they lost the Frey's and he was without allies against the strongest Kingdoms in Westeros.

@ Lord Lannister I'm not saying he was wrong to fight at all. I'm saying that he was wrong to continue fighting by ASoS.

Anyone should be able to see that's insulting. I don't think it's just a Greyjoy thing. The wording of his letter is condescending.

[Chaircat Meow]

It was clear that he'd lost when he was outnumbered, Winterfell was in ruins, his heirs were dead, Sansa was married to a Lannister, he had to abandon the Riverlands to fend for themselves against the combined might of the Tyrells and the Lannisters, the Greyjoys were running amuck in the North and blocking his path back to the North, Stannis was defeated, they lost the Karstarks, they lost the Frey's and he was without allies against the strongest Kingdoms in Westeros.

@ Lord Lannister I'm not saying he was wrong to fight at all. I'm saying that he was wrong to continue fighting by ASoS.

Anyone should be able to see that's insulting. I don't think it's just a Greyjoy thing. The wording of his letter is condescending.

Would he have lost the war if he'd been able to win back north though?

[Lord of Nutella]

If he had not been murdered, he might have very well retaken the North. MC has never been taken from the south, but he had attacked it from both sides against a weak garrison. Once he is north of MC, the IB are meat. I think the Riverlands would be impossible to hold, but its not a full defeat.

[German]

It wasnt clear to him. And isnt to me either.

12,000 vs. 100,000 that's almost guaranteed defeat. Cersei could have defeated Robb with 100,000 men but not only was Robb outnumbered 10:1 but the Lannister-Tyrells still had Tywin and Randyll Tarly both skilled generals. Robb could not win that war he could have held out at the neck for some time but all it would have taken for the Lannisters to circumvent the neck is to gather the naval power of the Reack and land at White Harbor.

[German]

Would he have lost the war if he'd been able to win back north though?

Yes the Redwyne navy would have permitted the Lannisters to strike anywhere along the Northern coast and land and army of a few thousand.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yes the Redwyne navy would have permitted the Lannisters to strike anywhere along the Northern coast and land and army of a few thousand.

And an enemy army of a few thousand is going to spell defeat for king Robb is it?

[Lord of Nutella]

Yes the Redwyne navy would have permitted the Lannisters to strike anywhere along the Northern coast and land and army of a few thousand.

A naval landing operation is a horror scenario for the one who does it. The Redwynes have 100 ships, so lets say the crown can mobilize 200 ships total. They are not gonna be able to load much people on it, and in his jomeland Robb is gonna sit on 20000 men minimum, probably more than 30000- 40000 if he calls them all, which he will when the threat of an invasion comes up. No way any army that the crown can transport on ship can defeat that. If they are caught while landing,even just 10000 will be enough to defeat everything the crown could possibly bring over the sea.

[The weirwood knight]

To sum it up, a pretty bad ruler

There will always be setbacks and betrayels in warfare, a good ruler must react accordingly.

Tywin Lannister faced complete defeat of House Lannister several times, yet he prevailed.

Honor and courage don't count for much if you bring down your own house.

Even Balon Greyjoy stated no man has died because he knelt.

Kneeling men can rise again and take revenge.

Rob didn't make peace, trusted the notably treachorous Freys and couldn't keep his own vassals in line (Bolton).

Thus he was a bad ruler ;)

[Lee-Sensei]

He could retake the North and stay there, but in that time the Riverlands would be completely crushed and the North on it's own doesn't stand a chance against the Tyrells and the Lannisters together.

[KingBlackfyre]

They couldn't take the north though in the middle of winter united under Robb I would see a repeat of the theon stark scenario. All the invaders would be slaughtered