Legend of Korra Book 4, Take Two [Spoilers, including Series Finale!]

[fionwe1987]

I didn't phrase what I meant correctly.

I am aware of this, but Im sorry, I don't consider this a good motivation and I am baffled that the writers would think this alone would make a compelling villain. She technically already has everything that belonged to the Earth Kingdom and attacking Republic city means that war with the Fire Nation and Water tribes will be inevitable if she managed to take it. She could have just been happy with what she already has (again technically all of the Earth Kingdom) and focused on ruling and improving that.

I don't think saying that she technically had all she could want makes much sense here. Me, I think she had all she could want being Su's second in command. But clearly she felt the need to go prove herself, and bring order to the world.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if she truly were Zaheer's opposite. He thinks government structures mean loss of freedom. She thinks inept government is the path to chaos. They want exactly the opposite thing, and its no surprise that Kuvira's movement is a cult of personality whereas Zaheer was happy being the anonymous terrorist.

The Sozin motivation worked a lot better because the Fire Nation was faaaaar more advanced than the other ones at the time, sure Kuvira's Earth Empire is more advanced than the other nations as well, but not as much.

But we all know the advanced technology of the Fire Nation was only an excuse. If Sozin truly cared about spreading the joy, he wouldn't have destroyed the Air Nomads and the Southern Water tribe, and the risk the Avatar would be from one of these places be damned.

I agree with you that zealots go extreme all the time, but it doesn't make for a very compelling villain IMO. There is absolutely no reason for me to be conflicted about who is really doing what's best here. Sure Zaheer was a bomb-throwing Anarchist, but the person he killed was essentially the Avatar version of Kim Jung-il. Plus when Korra said 'thanks a lot for giving rise to Kuvira' I thought it was bullshit. It wasn't only Zaheer who gave rise to Kuvira (I give him about 20% of the blame pie), it was mostly the hands-off approach of Republic City, yet nobody is blaming them for this colossal blunder. "Sure, lets give Kuvira carte blanche to do whatever she wants in the Earth Kingdom, what could possibly go wrong?".

Both Amon and Zaheer were definitely more compelling. And I agree with you guys that if we had experienced Kuvira's descent into dictatordom (the Red Lotus thread was usefully dangled for just this, I thought), she would have been a lot more compelling. I'm only saying that she isn't insane, not is her current behavior inexplicable.

As for blaming Raiko, that makes no sense. He doesn't have many resources of his own to commit. He needed Izumi's backing to just protect Republic City, let alone unite the entire Earth Kingdom. And unlike Kuvira, he had no way of adding to his ranks by taking on newly "freed" EK citizens.

And of course, Zaheer shares the majority of the blame. The reason deposing powerful governments with no successors in sight is a bad idea is that chaos is almost inevitable. Look at how the United States fared in Iraq or Afghanistan. Zaheer's flaw was that he thought that chaos was the answer. That it would suffice to set people free. But the world has a tendency to balance itself out, and the end result is an even more vice-like grip on the people of the EK. Could he have foreseen the exact sequence of events? No. But he could definitely have thought a little more and easily concluded that pure anarchy is the perfect breeding ground for despots, because the existing structures that protect the weak, no matter how watered-down, get washed away. End result? Powerful people like Kuvira can easily manipulate the situation to their gain.

Kuvira is a product of Zaheer's actions in another way too: had he not sought to eliminate Korra, she would have been the one leading the effort to unite the Earth Kingdom. Without meaning to, Korra is a person who is pretty much the exact balance between Zaheer and Kuvira. She questions authority, and despises despots. But she does accept that some structure must exist in society, and has no trouble enforcing it when necessary.

Zaheer blinded himself to who Korra was because his ideology made him blindly condemn her position. And so he created Kuvira, who embraces and revels the sort of power that Zaheer thought no one should possess.

[Red Tiger]

As for blaming Raiko, that makes no sense. He doesn't have many resources of his own to commit. He needed Izumi's backing to just protect Republic City, let alone unite the entire Earth Kingdom. And unlike Kuvira, he had no way of adding to his ranks by taking on newly "freed" EK citizens. Then what is he president for? What the hell does he add? He doesn't have resources and real power, yet he is one of several leaders who tells Kuvira to give up hers? and what about this?

And of course, Zaheer shares the majority of the blame. The reason deposing powerful governments with no successors in sight is a bad idea is that chaos is almost inevitable. Look at how the United States fared in Iraq or Afghanistan. Zaheer's flaw was that he thought that chaos was the answer. That it would suffice to set people free. But the world has a tendency to balance itself out, and the end result is an even more vice-like grip on the people of the EK. Could he have foreseen the exact sequence of events? No. But he could definitely have thought a little more and easily concluded that pure anarchy is the perfect breeding ground for despots, because the existing structures that protect the weak, no matter how watered-down, get washed away. End result? Powerful people like Kuvira can easily manipulate the situation to their gain. Disagree, yes it was Zaheer who caused the chaos, but what comes out of the chaos was not his fault. The world balances itself out, but it's not like it happens automatically, it's because people in positions of power make decisions that lead to something similar to the status quo. The air nomads could have decided to work beside Kuvira to keep an eye on things, the Fire Nation could have done something similar, so could the Water tribe.

Kuvira is a product of Zaheer's actions in another way too: had he not sought to eliminate Korra, she would have been the one leading the effort to unite the Earth Kingdom. Without meaning to, Korra is a person who is pretty much the exact balance between Zaheer and Kuvira. She questions authority, and despises despots. But she does accept that some structure must exist in society, and has no trouble enforcing it when necessary. Agreed.

Zaheer blinded himself to who Korra was because his ideology made him blindly condemn her position. And so he created Kuvira, who embraces and revels the sort of power that Zaheer thought no one should possess. Once again, I disagree that he created Kuvira.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I think that if we're looking for real life parallels, then Kuvira = President Putin might be worthwhile investigating.

History is full of revanchist dictators to compare Kuvira to. Putin is a decent example, but he feels small fry compared to Hitler or Stalin or Mao.

[Red Tiger]

History is full of revanchist dictators to compare Kuvira to. Putin is a decent example, but he feels small fry compared to Hitler or Stalin or Mao.

When you consider that the Earth Kingdom was based on ancient China, the use of work camps, The Great uniter nickname (Great Steersman in Mao's case) and the not-so-subtle analogues to the great leap forward, im picking Mao out of that line-up.

[fionwe1987]

Then what is he president for? What the hell does he add? He doesn't have resources and real power, yet he is one of several leaders who tells Kuvira to give up hers? and what about this?

Wait, you can only be president if you have a mighty military? I'll be sure to tell that 100 or so nations with weakling militaries in our world that they can't have presidents now.

Raiko leads the worlds largest metropolis and its surrounding regions. Both Cabbage Corp and Future Industries are headquartered there, so its pretty reasonable to make the case that what he brings to the table is a lot of wealth and influence.

As for the United Forces, it seems clear it is built up of soldiers from the Fire, Earth and Water nations. Tenzin could call on them for aid in Book 1. Raiko commanded them to stay and protect Republic City in Book 2, but Iroh told Korra to go make her case to Izumi. In Book 4, when Raiko wanted to send them to fight Kuvira, Izumi said no. She only agreed when he proposed protecting the city.

Seems clear to me that Raiko doesn't get to assemble to United Forces, and the rulers of the nations from which they're drawn can deny him their strength if they want to. And if Izumi had no interest in supporting a preemptive strike on Kuvira, I doubt she'd want the headache of uniting the Earth Kingdom where they'd be seen as invaders again. Kuvira had a hard enough time, imaging how the Governors would have reacted to a force comprised of Fire Benders.

Disagree, yes it was Zaheer who caused the chaos, but what comes out of the chaos was not his fault. The world balances itself out, but it's not like it happens automatically, it's because people in positions of power make decisions that lead to something similar to the status quo. The air nomads could have decided to work beside Kuvira to keep an eye on things, the Fire Nation could have done something similar, so could the Water tribe.

So its their responsibility to deal with Zaheer's actions? That's not at all clear to me. Sure, there's a humanitarian case to be made for restoring order in the EK, and the Air Nomads did help with that. The Fire Nation quite rightly didn't want anything to do with an Earth Kingdom civil war, given what had just happened. And the Water Tribes were just recovering from their own Civil wars.

All these facts could have easily guided Zaheer's actions. Except his plan was to follow the killing of the Earth Queen with killing every other leader in the world.

[Red Tiger]

Wait, you can only be president if you have a mighty military? I'll be sure to tell that 100 or so nations with weakling militaries in our world that they can't have presidents now.

Im not saying every president should have a mighty army, but Republic city should, it has a lot going for it and a thus a lot worth defending.

[fionwe1987]

Im not saying every president should have a mighty army, but Republic city should, it has a lot going for it and a thus a lot worth defending.

But it also has a fraught history. How much worse would the Queen have reacted to former EK territory now possessing a powerful national army? I think the reason the United Forces exist is to both protect Republic City, and also make the creation of an entire new nation go down more easily for the established rulers.

[Red Tiger]

But it also has a fraught history. How much worse would the Queen have reacted to former EK territory now possessing a powerful national army? I think the reason the United Forces exist is to both protect Republic City, and also make the creation of an entire new nation go down more easily for the established rulers.

I see what you mean. I am bothered by Raiko saying in seaosn 2 that Republic City won't help the Water Tribe, rather than that they can't. Raiko to me always came off like an indecisive and weak ruler, but maybe he really didn't have the means, like you said.

[fionwe1987]

I see what you mean. I am bothered by Raiko saying in seaosn 2 that Republic City won't help the Water Tribe, rather than that they can't. Raiko to me always came off like an indecisive and weak ruler, but maybe he really didn't have the means, like you said.

I think Raiko was right not to interfere with the Water Tribes. Again, he'd be sending a terrible message, especially when he depends on other nations to keep his own safe.

He was, however, a complete idiot for not lending Korra a hand when it became clear what Unalaq was planning for Harmonic Convergence. To his credit, he seems to have learned from the failure of his defensive attitude, and tried to arrange for a preemptive strike on Kuvira.

[fionwe1987]

Just so everyone knows, we're getting the finale early. It premiers on nick.com at 12 am ET/9 pm PST.

[red snow]

Just so everyone knows, we're getting the finale early. It premiers on nick.com at 12 am ET/9 pm PST.

They better fix my internet connection this afternoon!

[Sci-2]

So I'm guessing some peeps will be commenting around 1am?

Gotta remember to avoid this thread until late Friday.

[fionwe1987]

So I'm guessing some peeps will be commenting around 1am?

Gotta remember to avoid this thread until late Friday.

Dunno. Today is all kinds of bad. Colbert Report ends too. That's gonna hit me a lot harder.

[Sci-2]

Honestly I'll be a bit sad but I'm glad Avatar is ending on what I consider to be a relative high note.

Not that things couldn't be better with S2 being utter shit and S4 not living up to S3, but overall I think LoK has been a good run.

[fionwe1987]

Oh, I definitely think it is time to end it. If they want to revisit the characters, maybe a movie when they're older would be nice. But on the whole, I feel like we've gotten convinced this bunch can tackle the problems of the world.

On the other hand, Avatar-verse itself has become a way more interesting place. The Earthbender Avatar who comes up next would definitely be someone interesting to see. Maybe in a few years, we'll get that, if someone buys the property from Nick. Netflix, please do so (though not if you want to make something like Marco Polo).

[fionwe1987]

OMFG! They actually did it! More or less...

Well, that was quite thrilling. Rushed as hell, but thrilling. Accepting all the absurdities of the mecha giant, I think they did as good a job of making the fight against it exciting as they could. I'm also glad Korra wasn't still at peak form. That was one abrupt transition they avoided.

Generally, I feel the benders, especially the Airbenders, proved how utterly absurd a giant mech suit is. I can't believe that in the midst of all the ways they tried to stop it, Mako never thought to shoot lightning at it. Its a highly conductive metal: shouldn't that do something to it?

And they did still manage to surprise us. I wouldn't have dreamed we'd see a new Spirit Portal open. This does raise the question of how future generations will start using this. Korra kind of proved that a nuclear spirit vine bomb, if held concentrated enough, will rip open a new spirit portal. Which I'm sure someone can try to duplicate with technology.

But as for why that bomb existed at all: it made no sense that Kuvira was just able to use the discarded gun after all the damage it had been through. Its a machine ex machina we just have to swallow, I guess. It would also have been nice if they could telegraph Korra's ability to bend the Spirit Ray's energy, though I guess that was the point of the end of "Beyond the Wilds".

Mako should have died, I feel. It shouldn't have been just an almost death. If they did want to show a near-death, I think Bolin should have had it. A sign of true growth and maturity, sending Mako off with the soldiers, and pouring lava on the vines to make them explode. Mako shooting lightning was a misstep, IMO, given how little they developed him this season.

And then there's my biggest problem: Korra saving Kuvira's life was believable enough. Her understanding Kuvira was too. But the rush job they did on trying to explain Kuvira's motives was definitely the worst part of this episode. This should definitely have been explained more before, to make the final moment more easy to swallow. That Kuvira was motivated by deep seated fear and a sense of insecurity is believable enough. But that can't just be stated. And how does that square with her being okay with killing Bataar Jr.? Really, a few scenes from her childhood would have done a great job of fleshing her out. And instead of having her outright admit her mistakes, it would have been better if Korra's actions merely made her begin to open herself to doubt on the validity of what she was doing.

The ending was nice, though I do feel a little less time on Varrick's vows (or Wu's singing), and a little more time with our core characters would have been better. Wu's decision made sense, and I'm glad they didn't just make him King.

Korra's final conversation with Tenzin was good. Probably the best part of this show. They acknowledged a lot of things, and it closed the book on Korra's growth in a very satisfactory way. She isn't perfect, but she has opened herself to deep change, exactly as Aang told her in the end of Book 1.

And boy were they brilliant with the whole Korrasami shipping. This was the one thing they did just right. There were all the visual cues to suggest it, including the ending scene being them holding hands under the light of the portal. The emotional upheavals in both their lives would make it reasonable that they start considering romantic attachment. But everything they said could just be taken as what two close friends would say to each other, which they probably needed to let this whole thing slip past Nickelodeon.

Given their limitations, this was a very satisfying ending, IMO. Lots of things ended so that the world feels still alive. The story doesn't feel finished, just concluded.

[Sci-2]

Wow. Not perfect, but much better than what I was expecting.

Still a good ending to the series. If there really are no more shows I can accept this as a conclusion.

[fionwe1987]

Still a good ending to the series. If there really are no more shows I can accept this as a conclusion.

I agree. But they definitely left room for more stories in this world.

And if they do want to do comics, I'd say a comic series following Kuvira as she reunites the EK would actually be a great idea.

And a shoutout for the amazing animation this episode. So, sooo good.

[Sci-2]

I don't consider anything in comics canon....Part of why I was glad I was able to watch it only a bit after it aired.

Didn't want to get spoiled on what I consider the real ending.

[fionwe1987]

I don't consider anything in comics canon....Part of why I was glad I was able to watch it only a bit after it aired.

Didn't want to get spoiled on what I consider the real ending.

I totally don't want comics dealing with the immediate future. There's something elegant in the way they ended it. The Earth Kingdom split into many states, Korra and Asami off to a nice picnic, Mako affirming he's always going to be there for Korra.. I don't want the blanks filled. Its going to be a challenging time, with lots of work for everyone, and they're all ready for it. Leave it at that, please.