INCBlackbird Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Interesting points. He later recalls how he never felt Winterfell as trully home, yet when he goes back to the Islands, it's remarkable how he forgot to be an Ironborn and embraced his captors culture only reinforcing his feelings of not belonging to either Winterfell nor the Iron Islands. Contributing heavily to his conflicts in Clash. the thing is that he wasn't accepted in Winterfell (obviously... I mean there's nothing anyone could do about that because he was a captive and a Greyjoy) so he comforted himself by romanticizing the ironborn as a sort of "see! I DO have a place where I belong, I may not fit in here but wait till I go home" so he imagined his homecoming many times (he actually mentions this in clash, but I'm not there yet, I got it all written down though, i'm just revising and editing everything before posting now) and of course he imagined it to be perfect (as he does with everything) not even considering that anything about it could be bad. so than he finally goes home and it is NOT AT ALL what he expected, he doesn't feel at home at all, because of course the Starks have influenced him as well as his own constant romantcization of the ironborn, he has a warped view of his own people and culture at this point and because of his confidense issues and his tendency to think in extremes (if I don't fit in now I'll NEVER fit in) he doesn't allow himself any time to fit in. it's all or nothing and he gets scared that it'll be nothing which makes him emotionally unstable. Because I mean to him it feels like everything is about to be taken away from him, he made himself feel better by convincing himself that when he gets home it'll be better, but it's not better when he comes home, it's worse and now he doesn't have any romanticized ideas of the future to make himself feel better anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ornitorrinca Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Hello, INCBlackbird! Thank you for posting your analyses of Theon; you’ve made some really interesting observations. Since I’m new to posting here, I need to catch up to you all, and I hope you don’t mind that I comment starting with AGoT and then moving up to where you are in ACoK! On the killing of the direwolves.-Good point about this being Theon’s “badass, serious decision-maker” attitude on display. In my first reading, Theon just seemed callous for suggesting that they kill the pups and unable to empathize with Bran over why such an act would be saddening. Re-reading, though, I considered what you suggested and concluded that maybe his inability to empathize with the Stark boys is conditioned by the beheading he just witnessed (a la “it could just as easily have been me”). He has these roiling emotions of fear and hurt that he’s trying to hide by, as you said, laughing too much, and also with this nonchalant, cavalier attitude about the direwolf pups. But then look at what he has to say about the direwolves later on: first, he comments to Tyrion: “The wolves do not like your smell, Lannister,” and later he regales the Tully men with a recounting of the Whispering Wood, and says “The Lannisters must have thought the Others themselves were on them when that wolf of Robb’s got in among them. I saw him tear one man’s arm from his shoulder…” He’s done a complete “180” on the direwolves. Now they’re indispensable, an asset to the family, and the fact that they’re “unnatural” is a good thing. It also looks like he’s suggesting that they are excellent judges of character. Theon and Cat, Jon and BranLady Meliora’s parallels between Cat and Theon were intriguing because I’d never considered what those 2 characters might have in common. To a discerning reader, seemingly incomparable characters sometimes have striking similarities. Contributions like that are part of what makes this forum so enriching! INCBlackbird, I really liked the Theon-Jon parallels that you and other readers made, and how these opposing ways of approaching life keep them from getting along with each other. Later we see that both boys (well, men) become leaders and have trouble commanding respect. As your analysis shows, Theon has built up his own fantasy world concerning his life with the Starks, his “people” back in the Iron Islands and his own worth, so he really has no right to laugh mockingly at Bran when the child excitedly shouts that the children of the forest will help Benjen Stark! As it turns out, there really are CotF beyong the Wall. This re-read has already brought to light the ambivalence Bran feels towards Theon, so it really is to Bran’s credit that when he prays to the Old Gods for the safety of his family, their people and the Stark bannermen, he even includes Theon, albeit grudgingly. This reminds me of Sansa’s prayer to the Mother in ACoK. NO MERCYTheon advocates for the slaying of the direwolf pups; later, he urges Robb to cut off Jaime’s head. Jaime is a valuable hostage, the oldest son of a powerful house, just like someone else we know (oldest living son, in Theon’s case). Did he really think about what he was saying? What if Balon had started his attack a bit earlier, when Theon was still with Robb? Finally, between these two scenes, he tells Robb that he ought to give Osha to the wolves. It’s kind of funny, since Osha ends up escaping Theon and later leaving Winterfell with Rickon and Shaggydog, the wildest of the wolves. Theon the WardI understand that Theon was being held hostage to his father’s good behavior. What I don’t quite get is why he is the ward of Ned Stark, of all people. We know Ned’s feelings on murdering innocent children because of their family’s actions (the murder of Rhaegar’s children was his main point of contention with Robert Baratheon, as was the potential murder of Dany once he became Hand of the King). Theon doesn’t know this, hence his constant fear; but do you think Ned would have been able to cut off Theon’s head if Balon had started trouble again? Why did Robert send Theon with Ned? That’s all for now! I’ve read your analysis of Theon I in ACoK but now I need to re-read it myself…! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Hello, INCBlackbird! Thank you for posting your analyses of Theon; you’ve made some really interesting observations. Since I’m new to posting here, I need to catch up to you all, and I hope you don’t mind that I comment starting with AGoT and then moving up to where you are in ACoK! On the killing of the direwolves. -Good point about this being Theon’s “badass, serious decision-maker” attitude on display. In my first reading, Theon just seemed callous for suggesting that they kill the pups and unable to empathize with Bran over why such an act would be saddening. Re-reading, though, I considered what you suggested and concluded that maybe his inability to empathize with the Stark boys is conditioned by the beheading he just witnessed (a la “it could just as easily have been me”). He has these roiling emotions of fear and hurt that he’s trying to hide by, as you said, laughing too much, and also with this nonchalant, cavalier attitude about the direwolf pups. But then look at what he has to say about the direwolves later on: first, he comments to Tyrion: “The wolves do not like your smell, Lannister,” and later he regales the Tully men with a recounting of the Whispering Wood, and says “The Lannisters must have thought the Others themselves were on them when that wolf of Robb’s got in among them. I saw him tear one man’s arm from his shoulder…” He’s done a complete “180” on the direwolves. Now they’re indispensable, an asset to the family, and the fact that they’re “unnatural” is a good thing. It also looks like he’s suggesting that they are excellent judges of character. Theon and Cat, Jon and Bran Lady Meliora’s parallels between Cat and Theon were intriguing because I’d never considered what those 2 characters might have in common. To a discerning reader, seemingly incomparable characters sometimes have striking similarities. Contributions like that are part of what makes this forum so enriching! INCBlackbird, I really liked the Theon-Jon parallels that you and other readers made, and how these opposing ways of approaching life keep them from getting along with each other. Later we see that both boys (well, men) become leaders and have trouble commanding respect. As your analysis shows, Theon has built up his own fantasy world concerning his life with the Starks, his “people” back in the Iron Islands and his own worth, so he really has no right to laugh mockingly at Bran when the child excitedly shouts that the children of the forest will help Benjen Stark! As it turns out, there really are CotF beyong the Wall. This re-read has already brought to light the ambivalence Bran feels towards Theon, so it really is to Bran’s credit that when he prays to the Old Gods for the safety of his family, their people and the Stark bannermen, he even includes Theon, albeit grudgingly. This reminds me of Sansa’s prayer to the Mother in ACoK. NO MERCY Theon advocates for the slaying of the direwolf pups; later, he urges Robb to cut off Jaime’s head. Jaime is a valuable hostage, the oldest son of a powerful house, just like someone else we know (oldest living son, in Theon’s case). Did he really think about what he was saying? What if Balon had started his attack a bit earlier, when Theon was still with Robb? Finally, between these two scenes, he tells Robb that he ought to give Osha to the wolves. It’s kind of funny, since Osha ends up escaping Theon and later leaving Winterfell with Rickon and Shaggydog, the wildest of the wolves. Theon the Ward I understand that Theon was being held hostage to his father’s good behavior. What I don’t quite get is why he is the ward of Ned Stark, of all people. We know Ned’s feelings on murdering innocent children because of their family’s actions (the murder of Rhaegar’s children was his main point of contention with Robert Baratheon, as was the potential murder of Dany once he became Hand of the King). Theon doesn’t know this, hence his constant fear; but do you think Ned would have been able to cut off Theon’s head if Balon had started trouble again? Why did Robert send Theon with Ned? That’s all for now! I’ve read your analysis of Theon I in ACoK but now I need to re-read it myself…! Hi there ornitorrinca, first of all thanks for reading all that, and welcome to the thread :) The Direwolves: Honestly, I don’t think it’s conditioned by the beheadings he has to witness, though I do think that is part of it. Theon displays a lot of signs of having compensatory narcissistic personality disorder, which I will get into in detail later on, but basically this is a type of narcissism that a person forces upon themselves as a defense mechanism against their feelings of inferiority. Basically, overcompensation. Something strongly related to this disorder is empathy and Theon certainly has empathy problems. He is not devoid of it for sure, not like Cersei or Ramsay who appear to have no empathy whatsoever. Because he certainly feels sympathy (which you NEED empathy for) there are several types of empathy and the one Theon seems to have a problem with is the perspective taking. There are several cases in clash that I will go over where it becomes even clearer that Theon never looks at a situation from another person’s perspective. Some people on tumblr have concluded that people is autistic from this, but honestly I don’t buy that because the difficulty with perspective taking is litarly the only thing that’s part of autism. I personally think, it’s just part of the narcissism defense mechanism. He’s always in his own head, thinking about how to make it that others will like him, but he doesn’t think “what would THEY like me to be” he assumes that he already knows this. And this “knowledge” seems to be only based on stereotypes from the society he lives in. And I do think that this narcissism comes from not just the executions (in which he had to devoid himself of all emotion because society tells him that he’s a man and he can’t show any “weakness” and having emotions, especially feelings of fear are a weakness) but also the entire situation and the contempt it brings from the people around him. He is the enemy after all and as stated before, he would have felt that people didn’t trust him, through their entire behavior towards him. And confidence is a social process. When you are told/shown that you are seen as untrustworthy, weak, not valuable,… you will start to believe this. Then again, even before Winterfell Theon’s confidence was already damaged, he was the youngest “weakest” child of Balon Greyjoy who got bullied by his brothers on a regular basis. So yeah he was damaged goods to begin with, but Winterfell certainly did not help. As a result of this Theon also has the tendency to think in black and white, which makes this whole thing a vicious circle (one I’m in myself) because he will now automatically assume that people are thinking badly of him, which in turn damages his self-confidence even more. And it turns into something like “EVERYONE hates me” Theon tried to put a stop to this with this defense mechanism and a part of that defense mechanism is not looking at it from other people’s perspectives because “I don’t want to know what they’re thinking because they are certainly thinking something bad about me so you know what I am just going to filter EVERYTHING, I will MAKE myself believe that they are thinking something else” and he believes that to continue believing his own version, he needs to distance himself from other people’s perspectives, because that will break this thought process that he NEEDS to keep believing he’s awesome. (Obviously most of this happens subconsciously, Theon rarely self-reflects) woa… ok I hope that made sense at all? Back to the direwolves “He’s done a complete “180” on the direwolves. Now they’re indispensable” this is a very good point! And it’s not the last time Theon changes his opinion COMPLETELY. It’s all part of the black and white thinking either something is “all-good” or “all-bad” he does it to Asha later on. (I’m actually finished with his clash arc now, I’m just editing everything so I’ll be posting more soon, but yeah that’s why I’m talking about clash already) About Bran: I think Theon was mocking Bran again as part of the whole “I am so adulty and I will laugh at things I consider “childish” to show everyone how incredibly grown up I am” No mercy: See previous point and also probably Theon trying to set himself apart from the Jaime situation. To answer your question, I don’t think he thought it through. Theon rarely does, in the sense that he doesn’t think about things rationally, only emotionally. Theon the hostage (not a ward): Theon being called “a ward” is in GRRM’s words “a polite fiction” either way that’s not the point. I think Robert sent Theon with Ned because he trusted him. Ned had a problem with innocents being killed when it wasn’t necessary (Rhaegar’s children & Daenerys.) But taking Theon hostage was the only way they could think off to keep the peace with the Greyjoys (not knowing that Balon didn’t care and was just waiting for the right moment to attack) Lee-Sensei even argues that it was probably Ned’s idea because Robert was usually rather lenient with his enemies (not counting Targaryans because that’s personal to him.) But whether it was or wasn’t his idea (which we can’t know for sure) he went along with it which means to me that he was willing to go through with killing him, and that he would have done it. Reasons for why I think he would have can be found here: http://sarah1281.tumblr.com/post/95325913481/unbowedunbroken-ned-wouldnt-have-executed Ultimately though, when discussing Theon I don’t think it really matters whether Ned would or wouldn’t have done it, it doesn’t change anything about the fact that Theon clearly believed he would have, which is what is important when talking about Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Davos Baratheon Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Just wanted to say that I'm loving this thread.Still reading through all this material, but I'm enjoying it so far. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Just wanted to say that I'm loving this thread. Still reading through all this material, but I'm enjoying it so far. :) Thank you so much :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ornitorrinca Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 ...He’s always in his own head, thinking about how to make it that others will like him, but he doesn’t think “what would THEY like me to be” he assumes that he already knows this.... That is a really interesting point. His difficulty in putting himself in other people’s positions would keep him from understanding how they actually might want him to behave. Instead, he subconsciously fears the worst (“they think I’m ‘untrustworthy, weak, not valuable’”) and tries not to think from their perspective, and has to invent for himself the notions of how they must want him to behave. What is also intriguing here is, when in “mixed company”, just who he chooses to take his cues from. In the direwolves scene, he acts according to how he thinks Ned wants him to act; given his relationships with Bran and Jon, it’s understandable that he doesn’t consider their feelings, but Robb, with whom he truly does have a bond, would also have ended up feeling hurt by such comments. ...About Bran: I think Theon was mocking Bran again as part of the whole “I am so adulty and I will laugh at things I consider “childish” to show everyone how incredibly grown up I am”... I agree with your assessment. I was just pointing out how it’s a bit ironic, since he scoffs at a childish fantasy when he’s living in one himself, and Bran’s eventually turns out to be closer to reality. This made me think of Myrcella Baratheon’s line to Joffrey: “we’re children. We’re supposed to be childish!” This also ties in with the perspective-taking issue. Putting ourselves in the shoes of a little boy whose family is falling apart little by little, we see that his childish hope that magical beings will help his uncle is totally understandable. I think Maester Luwin shows great empathy, but Theon doesn’t (can’t?*) even attempt to see it from Bran’s point of view. *Empathizing with Bran here would be dangerous, as it could bring up painful memories of his childhood and all the bad things that have happened to him – “Oh, so your Uncle Ben got lost north of the Wall? Get over it. Half my siblings are dead and I haven’t seen a single family member in ten years…” Simply laughing disdainfully keeps him afloat....Theon the hostage (not a ward):Theon being called “a ward” is in GRRM’s words “a polite fiction” either way that’s not the point. I think Robert sent Theon with Ned because he trusted him. Ned had a problem with innocents being killed when it wasn’t necessary (Rhaegar’s children & Daenerys.) But taking Theon hostage was the only way they could think off to keep the peace with the Greyjoys (not knowing that Balon didn’t care and was just waiting for the right moment to attack) Lee-Sensei even argues that it was probably Ned’s idea because Robert was usually rather lenient with his enemies (not counting Targaryans because that’s personal to him.) But whether it was or wasn’t his idea (which we can’t know for sure) he went along with it which means to me that he was willing to go through with killing him, and that he would have done it. Reasons for why I think he would have can be found here: http://sarah1281.tum...t-have-executed Ultimately though, when discussing Theon I don’t think it really matters whether Ned would or wouldn’t have done it, it doesn’t change anything about the fact that Theon clearly believed he would have, which is what is important when talking about Theon. Thanks for the link and your opinion on whether Ned would have gone through with killing Theon. I’m still not completely convinced, myself, though; guess I need to think about it more and probably read more on the matter. Maybe Ned took him because he didn't think anyone else could be completely trusted to keep this innocent kid safe? (Sidenote: Right, 'cause as if there weren’t already a million interesting threads on this forum and others, there’s also a seemingly infinite amount of material on Tumblr. How can anyone keep abreast of it all?!) But yeah, you’re right, what’s important here is that Theon didn’t know Ned might not have been capable of killing him and that makes all the difference to his state of mind during his time as a captive at Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ornitorrinca Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Responses and Thoughts on Theon I, A Clash of Kings “There was no safe anchorage at Pyke” – His opening thought; how sadly true this turns out to be for Theon! The description of his father’s castle reminds me of Theon's state by the time Ramsay’s through with him – battered, broken, but still standing. “Best of all, the direwolf of stark did not fly above, casting its shadow down upon the Greyjoy kraken.” This is the first flat-out indication that Theon isn’t 100% loyal to the Starks, as readers had been led to believe throughout AGoT and the beginning of ACoK. Later, we get more confirmation with the “and nowhere a Stark to be seen” line. Aeron to the Innkeeper: “I shall see my nephew back to his father’s house.” I sincerely hope Theon enjoyed the freedom of his voyage from Seagard to the Iron Islands, because it’s the only time he's actually free. He gets passed around, from Balon to Ned to Robb and his bannermen to Aeron to Balon again! “I will not be cheated of my rights, I warn you.” He says this thinking of Asha; it’s ironic for us, who know that later, Asha will grasp at this exact line of thinking to contend that the Kingsmoot is, well, moot. ...Especially after Aeron accuses Theon of being a stark he’s got some very interesting notions on his time spent in Winterfell:“As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father’s good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had. Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.” Clearly Theon has some understandable hard feelings towards Ned that he can draw on now. He even admits to his fear of him. at the moment, he’s hauling up his resentment of the starks though. Aeron has just called him a Stark so he needs to deny their influence on him as much as possible. And yet, he can’t help but Think about Robb.Theon notes that only Robb and his “baseborn half-brother” were “worth his notice” he chides Jon for being jealous but “for Robb, Theon did have a certain affection, as for a younger brother… but it would be best not to mention that.” “It had been the same with the Mallisters, his companions on the ride from Riverrun to Seagard. Patrek Mallister was not too ill a fellow; they shared a taste for wenches, wine, and hawking. But when old Lord Jason saw his heir growing overly fond of Theon’s company, he had taken Patrek aside to remind him that Seagard had been built to defend the coast against reavers from the Iron islands, the Greyjoys of Pyke chief among them.” Since he notes how “it had been the same with the Mallisters” this is probably comparable to the treatment Theon occasionally got at Winterfell. He felt prejudiced and on occasions probably excluded simply for being a Greyjoy....I find his relationship with the Mallisters interesting. He and Patrek get along and even if he thinks it’s just based on their mutual interests of “wenches, wine, and hawking”, he clearly likes the guy. Even more interesting is what he thinks of Patrek’s father, Jason, who killed Theon’s brother, Rodrik. Earlier, Theon internally expresses bitterness at how Ned Stark had sometimes tried to be “the father”, but was always “the man who had brought fire and blood to Pyke”. It doesn’t seem like Theon had a very happy childhood based on what he says and his memories of his brothers (he was probably exaggerating to Patrek, but his brothers really did treat him terribly). That he forgave Jason Mallister so easily speaks to the fact that he wasn’t so upset about what happened to his family in the Greyjoy Rebellion. I think his thoughts on Ned “the father” are two-fold: On one hand, he’s comparing his family life pre-Rebellion to what he sees of the Stark family and feeling jealousy for not really belonging to their happy family; and on the other hand, he’s trying to view the Starks as he thinks his father perceives them. Later, in Balon’s presence, he reasons to himself that Ned “would have” put his brothers to the sword if need be: and now, killing Rodrik and Maron is a bad thing! ...Theon expresses an interest in ships and connects anything he can think of to the sea. It’s clearly a thought process he has forced upon himself as part of his fake identity, because currently it is all about being ironborn. “The sea meant freedom to the men of the Iron Islands. He had forgotten that until the Myraham had raised sail at Seagard.” The sea doesn't mean freedom to him just because; it means freedom to him because it means freedom to the Ironborn. And he uses it to remind himself he's also an Ironborn and he MUST consider the sea as freedom, because that’s a part of being an ironborn. Which is what Theon is trying to be. This is a perfect example of how Theon thinks about himself, he doesn’t begin with himself, he begins with “I am a Greyjoy” and then creates a person with certain aspects based on that, then applies those aspects to himself and tells himself that that’s who he is....So true! Yet when Theon is finally associated with the Ironborn and the sea by someone else, it's by Jojen when he foresees the invasion of Winterfell. The sea comes to mean the opposite of freedom for Bran and Rickon. His chambers in the Bloody Keep, the wet and moldy door with rusty iron bolts, his father’s stature and white hair (white LIKE THE SEAAA, it is all like the sea!) – all these things are Theon noticing that his fantasy and reality aren’t matching up. Things like a moldy wooden door are to be expected in a coastal environment, but it isn’t to Theon’s taste. The rusty “iron” bolts struck me too – how he’s starting to view the Greyjoy elders. ...Theon’s vanityTheon’s love for fine clothes gets touched upon a few times in this chapter and I think it’s very important because this is the one thing that belongs entirely to Theon, it’s not something he’s learned as a defense mechanism or something he pushed on himself as part of his fake identity....When Balon mocks Theon’s fancy clothing, he is almost right. Where would Theon have acquired such fine clothing if not from the Starks? I agree that this pride in dressing nicely is something that is pure Theon, one of the few things that is really "by him, for him." But Ned and Cat must have indulged this, by letting him have these beautifully embroidered kraken doublets, gold chains and Greyjoy-colored scabbards. Sorry these posts are so long!! Now at least I'm on the same page as the rest of the participants in this re-read... Looking forward to seeing what you notice in the next analysis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I think the clothing thing is interesting: where, exactly, does Theon get his dandyish taste in clothes? None of this current generation of Starks are noted for such indulgence (Ned runs a very austere household). Few of the Northern Houses, except the Manderleys and (ironically) the Boltons go in for silks. This could be Theon trying to differentiate himself from his captors, or it could be a symbol of "home" (as imagined, rather than as it actually is). But did he have a role-model, or was this something young Theon came up with by himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 I think the clothing thing is interesting: where, exactly, does Theon get his dandyish taste in clothes? None of this current generation of Starks are noted for such indulgence (Ned runs a very austere household). Few of the Northern Houses, except the Manderleys and (ironically) the Boltons go in for silks. This could be Theon trying to differentiate himself from his captors, or it could be a symbol of "home" (as imagined, rather than as it actually is). But did he have a role-model, or was this something young Theon came up with by himself? I don't think he really got it from anywhere. Honestly, I think he genuinely likes. and it's probably also a way to make him feel better about himself. Since he's apperantly a handsome guy and he can get girls quite easily (which would have boasted his ego) he might have just really focussed on always wanting to look good, as a sort of substitute for his feelings of inferiority. kinda "I have THIS at least and I will use it to the fullest", and that includes clothes. But yeah, a few months ago I went to a convention that Alfie Allen attended with a few friends and there was a panel with Finn Jones and Alfie and they got asked the question of what their characters would be studying if they lived in our world. and Finn Jones was like "Loras might study fashion?" and instantly me and my friend said to eachother "Theon would study fashion!" "I know right!!" ornitorrinca, I will reply to you when I have the time to do so thoroughly, hopefully tomorrow maybe the day after... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 That is a really interesting point. His difficulty in putting himself in other people’s positions would keep him from understanding how they actually might want him to behave. Instead, he subconsciously fears the worst (“they think I’m ‘untrustworthy, weak, not valuable’”) and tries not to think from their perspective, and has to invent for himself the notions of how they must want him to behave. What is also intriguing here is, when in “mixed company”, just who he chooses to take his cues from. In the direwolves scene, he acts according to how he thinks Ned wants him to act; given his relationships with Bran and Jon, it’s understandable that he doesn’t consider their feelings, but Robb, with whom he truly does have a bond, would also have ended up feeling hurt by such comments. I agree with your assessment. I was just pointing out how it’s a bit ironic, since he scoffs at a childish fantasy when he’s living in one himself, and Bran’s eventually turns out to be closer to reality. This made me think of Myrcella Baratheon’s line to Joffrey: “we’re children. We’re supposed to be childish!” This also ties in with the perspective-taking issue. Putting ourselves in the shoes of a little boy whose family is falling apart little by little, we see that his childish hope that magical beings will help his uncle is totally understandable. I think Maester Luwin shows great empathy, but Theon doesn’t (can’t?*) even attempt to see it from Bran’s point of view. *Empathizing with Bran here would be dangerous, as it could bring up painful memories of his childhood and all the bad things that have happened to him – “Oh, so your Uncle Ben got lost north of the Wall? Get over it. Half my siblings are dead and I haven’t seen a single family member in ten years…” Simply laughing disdainfully keeps him afloat. Thanks for the link and your opinion on whether Ned would have gone through with killing Theon. I’m still not completely convinced, myself, though; guess I need to think about it more and probably read more on the matter. Maybe Ned took him because he didn't think anyone else could be completely trusted to keep this innocent kid safe? (Sidenote: Right, 'cause as if there weren’t already a million interesting threads on this forum and others, there’s also a seemingly infinite amount of material on Tumblr. How can anyone keep abreast of it all?!) But yeah, you’re right, what’s important here is that Theon didn’t know Ned might not have been capable of killing him and that makes all the difference to his state of mind during his time as a captive at Winterfell.Aaaah! I’m here, finally replying!! Personally, I think that if he was thinking about Robb (though I think his feelings for Ned might overrise his need to think about Robb, because he is his captor and I know that a lot of people disagree but I think he had a form for stockholm syndrome for Ned, all the signs are there, I did an analysis on this which can be found here: http://incblackbird.tumblr.com/post/96777586321/does-theon-have-stockholm-syndrome) He was probably thinking about how he had to be the “older, responsible brother” because that’s exactly how he acts with Robb that time when he’s fighting with Joffrey. and especially with everyone else around Theon would want to be seen that way. Oh yeah definitely, but Theon does that a lot. Even if it’s just for overcompensation reasons he will think about how others are “weak” and “stupid” and whichever other insult he can come up with as a way to avoid feeling like that himself. Pushing others down to push himself up. And there is NO WAY that Theon would ever admit to himself that he is indeed living in a total fantasy. Because that fantasy is what keeps him going basically, it’s his defense mechanism, he NEEDS to believe in it. Yep, that’s what Theon does indeed, it’s probably one of his worst traits. I mean… he has all these issues and I sympathise with him a whole lot of over them because he basically just wants to be loved, bu the irony is that his defense mechanisms usually revolve around being a dick to people, which obviously won’t make them like him (I don’t think he really does it to the people he wants to like him though, but Theon is very focused on his status he is very classist because of that, but I go over that later so not getting too deep into it. So he doesn’t realize (until adwd) that it doesn’t matter how highborn someone is, that he would get a whole lot out of being loved by anybody. But yeah, at the moment he only tries with specific targets and he uses everyone else to try and keep his confidence up by demeaning them) honestly, it’s a vicious circle, and Theon is in a lot of those when it comes to his issues, that’s why everything went so wrong. it’s a vicious downward circle that again, ironically, Ramsay of all people put an end to. My problem with this argument (not that we’re having the argument right now but I have had it before) is that there is no possible way to prove either side. That’s why I am trying to stop having this argument altogether. Because I can say that according to what we know of Ned I don’t think it’d make sense for him not to do it, because Ned does his duty whether he likes it or not and when he agreed to take on Theon, taking his life in case his father rebelled became his duty. And he would have hated it and obviously hoped he wouldn’t have to do it but I think he’d have done it. I also think that Ned’s main problem with Dany and the Targaryan kids was that their deaths were unnecessary. In Theon’s case there was really no other solution and Ned is naïve, but he’s not that naïve also he respects the costums of the world he lives in (hostage taking is one of them. a pretty common one) what he had a problem with and was naïve about was the corruption. I even think that Ned agreed to take Theon himself as a way to do right by him, kind of like his “he who passes the sentence, should swing the sword” principle. Like, if this is going to happen I am not going to ignore it and I will take responsibility for it and I will feel the pain of it (in case I have to take his life.) (damn, see now I’m doing it again… but well, as long as the argument stays friendly I guess it’s ok) so yeah that’s my take on it, beside the reasons pointed out in the thing I linked about him having to go through with it because of reputation purposes. But I know there’s lots of people who disagree with me on this and personally I think they’re biased, but than they probably think I’m biased as well (and I probably am because everyone is biased, at least a little. Though, I try to stay as objective as I can I am still human so there is no absolute in that) AND, another reason why I’m trying to stop having this argument is that it usually grows from a conversation where it is irrelevant in the first place (in my personal experience) because I’m for example trying to talk about the issues Theon has developed through his time in Winterfell and explaining his behavior and somehow people interpret that as me saying the Starks are evil, even though I have never really blamed the Starks for Theon’s issues, I blame the system mostly. So the argument suddenly turns into “but it was no the Stark’s fault, Balon started the rebellion, blame him” or “Ned Stark would never have killed Theon” and at first I used to argue but at this point I just go “it’s irrelevant to my point” (argh, sorry for that rant, I’ve had these arguments way too many times for my own good) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 I'm reuploading the first clash chapter. I made a few changes. (plus it kinda annoys me that chapters otherwise won't be in the right order in the thread) THEON I Summary:Theon is on his way home, as he watches Pyke come closer from aboard the Myraham, he notices several long ships from important houses and realizes his father has called the banners, he is confused at first but eventually attributes it to “old men being cautious”. Theon has been sleeping with the captain’s daughter, although he appears to not particularly enjoy her company, he’s preoccupied with thoughts of his future glory while she’s pleasuring him. And when he does spare her a thought, it’s usually an insult. When she asks if he will take her with him, to become his “salt wife”, he refuses her.Upon his arrival, Aeron is there to accompany Theon to Pyke. He reflects on how much his uncle has changed since he saw him last. In addiction Theon also notices how much smaller everything on the iron islands looks after all these years. At Pyke, Theon takes special care dressing to meet his father and inform him of his, according to Theon, ingenious plan. He is, however surprised and dishearten, when his father dismisses his plan and even mocks the very idea of being “given” a crown, instead, Balon wants to attack the north. Analysis:For the analytic part, I will not follow the course of the chapter chronologically but rather pick out certain aspects, focus on those and support them with quotes from all over the chapter. Theon’s behaviorTheon’s behavior is an attempt to keep the fragile fake identity he created for himself, standing. His narcissism is a manifestation of this fake identity and largely the cause of this macho behavior. “Theon had never seen a more stirring sight. In the sky behind the castle, the fine red tail of the comet was visible through thin, scuttling clouds. All the way from Riverrun to Seagard, the Mallisters had argued about its meaning. It is my comet, Theon told himself, sliding a hand into his fur-lined cloak to touch the oilskin pouch snug in its pocket. Inside was the letter Robb Stark had given him, paper as good as a crown.” This passage is a good example of how self-absorbed Theon is in this chapter. He has convinced himself that now that he’s free, his future will be bright. “This is the season, Theon thought, the season, the year, the day, and I am the man.” He’s never had his own life in his hands and he doesn’t have the experience of failure. In fact, he already considers himself the victor. Thoughts of his plan failing never even cross his mind. While being pleasured by the captain’s daughter he’s preoccupied with thoughts of his future glory, he climaxes to the anticipation of “succeeding where his father failed” Theon has built up this mask of arrogance over the years and convinced himself of his own greatness, as a defense mechanism against all the prejudice he has endured at Winterfell. But he has no experience with responsibility whatsoever, he has no idea how hard it is and no way to deal with possible failure so he severely overestimates himself and what the future has in store for him, to the point where he believes a comet, for all the world to see, is the sign that his and Robb’s plan will work out perfectly and he will get his crown. Theon only sees what he wants to see and ignores everything else and this is the moment he’s been waiting for, for years. It’s all about him, he never puts himself in other people’s shoes and considers what they might think/do. Theon doesn’t try to hide the fact that he’s sleeping with the captain’s daughter, although he knows how much the captain disapproves. In fact, he specifically tells him “We’ll be below, in my cabin.” Before taking the girl with him. Theon even finds his disapproval amusing “watching the man struggle to swallow his outrage while performing his courtesies to the high lord, the rich purse of gold he’d been promised never far from his thoughts.” Theon enjoys the control he supposedly has over the captain. That control is probably blown out of proportion by him. He thinks he’s got it all figured out. He also reflects on how he was responsible for getting the girl into his bed willingly “A cup of wine, a few whispers, and there she was.” Treating this also as his control over the situation. Theon criticizes both the captain and his daughter on multiple occasions, before deeming them good enough. He compares the captain to the ironborn captains and thinks about how much better and braver the ironborn are. (Because he’s painting the ironborn in the best possible light here, he’s completely ready to finally belong in this place after all!) Theon chides the captain’s daughters body “The girl was a shade plump for his taste” he calls her “stupid” many times but then again “he had never required a woman to be clever.” Theon enjoys the authority he has on the ship and relishes every opportunity he has to display his rule. When the captain asks his permission to make for port, “’you may’ Theon said, a faint smile playing about his lips.” The word choice is remarkable. Not simply “yes” or “okay” or even “you can”. He specifically choses words that make it sounds like he’s being generous, words that make his authority on the matter shine. And it’s important to note the way he smiles, Theon likes to be this authority figure because it makes him feel important. In the end it’s all an illusion of control, a way for Theon to make himself feel better about his years in captivity and the lack of self-confidence and self-worth it’s cost him. He needs to feel like he’s the smartest person in the room, the puppeteer. And he needs to criticize them to make himself feel this way, he convinces himself that he’s got them wrapped around his finger and they are too simple to realize it. This can all easily be explained by the lack of control Theon has had his entire life. He was a hostage half his life, a mere pawn in the scheme of things bigger then himself. Not even his own life was in his hands. So now that he’s free, he grabs a hold of that feeling of control for dear life and relishes it. And there is another layer to this. Theon values his name and status because while a captive it was all he really had, he wasn’t valued as a person but he WAS valued as a political tool because he is Theon GREYJOY, the son of a lord. And he overcompensates for the fact that he wasn’t valued as a person by putting a lot of emphasis on his status. He derives feelings self-worth from it, because he has nothing else to draw them from. And equally but to a lesser extent, he derives self-worth from being male. The world Theon lives in is both classist and sexist and Theon uses those views to support his feelings of self-worth. He takes every chance he gets to demean people of lower birth (especially women) than him because they need to be worth less/ less capable than him to fuel those feelings of self-worth. In addition Theon now confuses being politically important with being valued as a person. He tries to behave according to a stereotype he’s created based on his status and his gender, because he thinks this is what will get him the validation he so desperately wants. This stereotype becomes a false identity that Theon forces on himself. This false identity is very flexible though, it changes according to the situation Theon is in, at the time. He always tries to be someone whom he think will be valued by the people around him. “The priest’s manner was chilly, most unlike the man Theon remembered. Aeron Greyjoy had been the most amiable of his uncles, feckless and quick to laugh, fond of songs, ale, and women.” The way Theon describes the old Aeron here sounds very much like the kind of man Theon is, himself. As an extension, does that mean Theon finds himself “amiable” as well? It’s also important to note that since a lot of Theon’s behavior is based upon his fake identity, it could be that he actually adopted some of this behavior from Aeron, as he would be one of Theon’s examples of what an irorborn is like. This would explain why he was so disappointed that Aeron had changed so much. If he sees this kind of behavior as “amiable” it would make sense that this is what Theon wants to be like. The purpose of taking on this fake identity is, after all, to be accepted, respected and loved. And if he finds this kind of behavior amiable, he probably assumes others do to. Theon finds the most “amiable” of his uncles, the one who was exactly like him. Upon arriving on shore Theon notices a lot of longships from important houses like Harlow and Goodbrother. His first thought is “Had Lord Balon anticipated him and called the Greyjoy banners? His hand went inside his cloak again, to the oilskin pouch.” Even though Theon and Robb are the only ones aware of the plan, Theon’s thought pattern still starts from there, he’s so preoccupied with this plan that it’s the first thing on his mind. “Yet if the longships are hosting…” deep inside Theon’s knows what this means but he’s in denial. Theon knows that if the longships are hosting his father is planning to attack, he knows that he didn’t even wait for his son to come home to do so, that he was planning it regardless of what that would mean for Theon. But “The thought did not please him. His father’s war was long done, and lost. This was Theon’s hour-his plan, his glory, and in time his crown.“ Theon has convinced himself that his family will simply follow his lead, that they will praise him for getting his father his crown. This is the first sign that Theon’s imagination is far from reality but Theon needs to keep believing in his fantasy. He can’t stop thinking about it until he comes up with an explanation he’s ok with. “It might be only a caution, now that he thought on it. A defensive move, lest the war spill out across the sea. Old men were cautious by nature.” Suddenly Theon “knows” that old men are cautious by nature, this statement comes out of nowhere but he needs to believe that he “knows” this in order for his thought pattern to make sense.This is first sign that Theon’s plan won’t work, but he doesn’t want to see it. This is how Theon deals with problems, he distorts the truth into something he likes to make himself feel better. It’s never really about the actual problem, that’s not important, it’s about how Theon feels about it. If he can make himself believe there is no problem, he assumes this will become the truth. This is probably how he has dealt with emotions of fear and abandonment during his time in Winterfell. In which case this kind of problem solving WAS useful, because Theon had no control over the situation anyway, might as well convince himself his father cared about him and Ned Stark wouldn’t kill him to reduce his anxiety. Theon’s adopted his macho behavior to foster his false self-identity, because it is of course fragile. His behavior is a shield to keep it intact. He acts tough to avoid feelings of shame for being weak. He is scared that if he is seen as helpless the illusion of being in control will be broken, so he acts tough. He fears being called out on his weakness (that he believes deep down, he has) and tries to measure up to the people in power he seeks to emulate, by acting extremely “manly’, it’s all overcompensation. He keeps the illusion of his supposed control and strength by showing it off to others every chance he gets, and using this as a way to convince himself this fake identity is real. He’s acting on it, so it must be real right? The need to act the hard, tough manly man and Theon’s general callousness to others are defense mechanisms against feelings of vulnerability. He fears his weakness will be exposed and will go to any length to avoid letting others see how frightened he is. This is something he learned in Winterfell, but when he arrives home that fear takes a different direction. He is afraid of not fitting in and of how much the iron islands have changed during his absence. “It is as if I were a stranger here, Theon thought. Nothing has changed, and yet everything has changed.” in reality, Theon is the one who changed, but of course he would never admit that. When arriving ashore Theon paces the deck looking for familiar faces, because surely, after 10 years, his father would send someone to fetch his last living son and heir. “It was not as though they had no word of his arrival. Robb had sent ravens from Riverrun, and when they’d found no longship at Seagard, Jason Mallister had sent his own birds to Pyke, supposing that Robb’s were lost.” This is a clear sign that Theon chose to ignore. It can’t be that his father just didn’t feel the need to reply, because Theon is super important! “’And I’ve brought your heir back to you.’ The Lordsport men gazed on Theon with blank, bovine eyes, and he realized that they did not know who he was. It made him angry.” The lack of the enthusiastic responses Theon had expected provokes him to anger because it hurt his precious pride. It is a sign that is not as valued as he’d like to believe and he NEEDS to continue believing that he is. “‘Innkeeper,’ he barked, ‘I require a horse.’ ‘As you say, m’lord,’ the man responded, without so much as a bow. He had forgotten how bold the ironborn could be.” Here Theon comes up with an explanation for the lack of respect/recognition he gets. It’s not because the ironborn don’t consider him important, it is because they are bold by nature. This makes it easier for Theon to keep igoring things he doesn’t like. All of this is a threat to Theon’s illusion of importance, he considers it an attempt to shatter it. And Theon does get angry but before any feelings of doubt can break his feelings of superiority, he comes up with another explanation for the lack of respect. This way Theon never has to deal with the problem of his superiority not being recognized by others (and therefor, the possibility that it’s fake.) Throughout the chapter Theon becomes increasingly more irritated as his perfect fantasy is threatened and it becomes more and more difficult to deny it’s a just a fantasy.“The door was grey wood studded with iron, and Theon found it barred from the inside. He hammered on it with a fist, and cursed when a splinter snagged the fabric of his glove. The wood was damp and moldy, the iron studs rusted. After a moment the door was opened from within by a guard in a black iron breastplate and pothelm. ‘You are the son?’ ‘Out of my way, or you’ll learn who I am.’ The man stood aside. Theon climbed the twisting steps to the solar.” As Theon gets more and more agitated, his mood becomes foul and his behavior increasingly unpleasant. He uses a common defense mechanism known as displacement. Displacement involves taking out our frustrations, feelings, and impulses on people or objects that are less threatening. In Theon’s case this starts with the door, which only makes his anger rise and the servant has to take the next blast. This probably isn’t the first time Theon has used this defense mechanism. In Winterfell he was surrounded by people in a more powerful position then him and when they treated him unfairly Theon couldn’t defend himself. He must have been finding other ways to work out his anger on for years. Theon’s insecuritiesThis fake identity is a way to hide some deep rooted insecurities, feelings of fear and shame that Theon has been dealing with. Those insecurities start to surface when he talks to authority figures, in this chapter specifically his uncle Aeron and his father. “’As to Dagmer, the Cleftiaw is gone to Old Wyk at your father’s behest, to roust the Stonehouses and the Drumms.’ ‘To what purpose? Why are the longships hosting?’ ‘Why have longships ever hosted?’” Its remarkable how Theon still doesn’t believe it, the idea that Balon is already planning his next move doesn’t fit into his line of thinking because it’s not a welcome thought. It’s a threatening thought, and he refuses to accept it, he hopes that Aeron will have an explanation for him but of course Theon will have to deal with the truth, whether he likes it or not. Theon lets the matter rest for a while and asks Aeron if he will find his mother and sister at Pyke. “’You will not. Your mother dwells on Harlaw, with her own sister. It is less raw there, and her cough troubles her. Your sister has taken Black Wind to Great Wyk, with messages from your lord father. She will return e’er long, you may be sure.’ Theon did not need to be told that Black Wind was Asha’s longship. He had not seen his sister in ten years, but that much he knew of her. Odd that she would call it that, when Robb Stark had a wolf named Grey Wind. “Stark is grey and Greyjoy’s black,” he murmured, smiling, “but it seems we’re both windy.” The priest had nothing to say to that.” Theon makes a joke that his uncle couldn’t possibly understand but he still expects him too. This is another sign that Theon never puts himself in other people’s shoes. He doesn’t question whether or not Aeron will understand the joke, doesn’t stop to think that Aeron has no clue that Robb Stark has a direwolf called Grey Wind. And doesn’t question it afterwards. He’s so in his own head that he doesn’t even realize this. When at last Theon accepts that his father called “his swords and sails” he asks Aeron why. “I would know his plans now.”(With this kind of wording, he’s still trying to sound like he’s the authority figure in this matter) Aeron however, refuses to tell him insisting that his father will do so but he has been commanded not to speak of it to any man. “Theon’s anger flared. He’d led men in war, hunted with a king, won honor in tourney melees, ridden with Brynden Blackfish and Greatjon Umber, fought in the Whispering Wood, bedded more girls than he could name, and yet this uncle was treating him as though he were still a child of ten.” Theon gets angry because Aeron is working in on a deep buried feelings of fear and shame. And he has to remind himself exactly why Aeron is so wrong about him. Theon also draws a conclusion here, he feels “treated like a child”, thinking that Aeron doesn’t consider him mature enough to share his father’s plans with. Automatically concluding this, getting angry about it and then the excessive denial of there being any truth in it. Also the fact that Theon immediately knows all the reasons why he is not a child. All of this means that Theon’s felt this way many times before and he’s very insecure about it. Theon is protecting his self-esteem by excessively denying the mere existence of his insecurities. In many ways Theon is still a child, as mentioned before, he has no experience with responsibility because he’s been a prisoner all his life. And in Winterfell he’s probably felt “treated as a child” on multiple occasions when he wasn’t trusted, or when he was chided by people who should have been his equals (the incident with Robb in the woods comes to mind) and he could never defend himself because he was in the position of a prisoner. Yet, society demands him to be an adult. And Theon considers himself to have experience in being a grown up. He is convinced that he knows how the world works, he’s experienced the unfairness himself and the bitterness that came with it is what he thinks he knows about the world. “Boys believe nothing can hurt them, his doubt whispered. Grown men know better” “’If my father makes plans for war, I must know of them. I am not ‘any man,’ I am heir to Pyke and the Iron Islands.’ ‘As to that,’ his uncle said, ‘we shall see.’ The words were a slap in the face. ‘We shall see’ My brothers are both dead. I am my lord father’s only living son.’ ‘Your sister lives.’ Asha, he thought, confounded. She was three years older than Theon, yet still... ‘A woman may inherit only if there is no male heir in the direct line,’ he insisted loudly. ‘I will not be cheated of my rights, I warn you.’” Theon forgets himself for a moment here, “You warn a servant of the Drowned God, boy? You have forgotten more than you know.” It has been shown earlier in the chapter, when Aeron made his entrance, that he is a well-respected man. “As the man approached, the smallfolk bent the knee, and Theon heard the innkeeper murmur, ‘Damphair’” Theon should know this, but it’s a part of ironborn culture he has indeed forgotten and what Aeron said made him act out impulsively. Because his uncle basically just spelled out a fear that Theon’s been denying for years. That he doesn’t have a place where he belongs anymore, that they’ve forgotten about him. That whenever he got prejudiced and comforted himself by thinking about his eventual homecoming and how at least there he would be valued, it was all just a fantasy that wouldn’t come true. “Whenever he’d imagined his homecoming, he had always pictured himself returning to the snug bedchamber in the Sea Tower, where he’d slept as a child. Instead the old woman led him to the Bloody Keep.” Theon’s homecoming is not at all as he’d imagined it being. “’It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.’ Theon smiled. ‘I could not agree more.’ ‘A man agrees with god as a raindrop with the storm.’ This raindrop will one day be a king, old man. Theon had suffered quite enough of his uncle’s gloom. He put his spurs into his horse and trotted on ahead, smiling.” The fact that Aeron agrees with Theon’s previous assumption that “the comet is his” makes him happy enough. He probably assumes that Aeron just doesn’t know that the “time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world” points to Theon’s plan. But Theon has been telling himself all along that his plan will work out and this is something he can count as a direct sign that it will. He rides off before Aeron gets a chance to say something that brings back his doubts and fears. “’Nine years, is it?’ Lord Balon said at last. ‘Ten,’ Theon answered”Balon doesn’t even remember how long his son has been gone, while I’m sure Theon counted the years carefully. Knowing Balon cared so little must have hurt Theon, though he doesn’t show it. Instead he shows confidence: “’Your blood and your heir.’ Lord Balon grunted. ‘We shall see.’ ‘You shall,’ Theon promised.“ Theon’s regained his confidence after the joyfull end of his conversation with Aeron and a chance to get dressed in clothes he likes. But it doesn’t last long. “’It is as I feared. The green lands have made you soft, and the Starks have made you theirs.’ ‘You’re wrong. Ned Stark was my gaoler, but my blood is still salt and iron.’ Lord Balon turned away to warm his bony hands over the brazier. ‘Yet the Stark pup sends you to me like a well-trained raven, clutching his little message.’ ‘There is nothing small about the letter I bear,’ Theon said, ‘and the offer he makes is one I suggested to him.’ ‘This wolf king heeds your counsel, does he?’ The notion seemed to amuse Lord Balon.”With every word he says the situation becomes worse. Theon was clearly not expecting such disrespect. However, he hasn’t forgotten his childhood “Chiefly he remembered Rodrik’s drunken cuffs and Maron’s cruel japes and endless lies.” despite everything, he keeps on trying to convince his father of the greatness of his plan. “Lord Balon grunted. ‘Casterly Rock has never fallen.’ ‘Until now.’ Theon smiled. And how sweet that will be. His father did not return the smile. ‘So this is why Robb Stark sends you back to me, after so long? So you might win my consent to this plan of his?’ ‘It is my plan, not Robb’s,’ Theon said proudly. Mine, as the victory will be mine, and in time the crown. ‘I will lead the attack myself, if it please you. As my reward I would ask that you grant me Casterly Rock for my own seat, once we have taken it from the Lannisters.’ With the Rock, he could hold Lannisport and the golden lands of the west. It would mean wealth and power such as House Greyjoy had never known. ‘You reward yourself handsomely for a notion and a few lines of scribbling.’” But Balon only expresses mocking amusement that his son would think his father would let Robb Stark “give” him a crown. He tosses the letter in the fire and effectively burns Theon’s dreams to the ground. “The parchment curled, blackened, and took flame. Theon was aghast. ‘Have you gone mad?’ His father laid a stinging backhand across his cheek. ‘Mind your tongue. You are not in Winterfell now, and I am not Robb the Boy, that you should speak to me so. I am the Greyjoy, Lord Reaper of Pyke, King of Salt and Rock, Son of the Sea Wind, and no man gives me a crown. I pay the iron price. I will take my crown, as Urron Redhand did five thousand years ago.’” Theon’s reunion with his father shows us exactly how far from the truth Theon’s fantasies were. He deluded himself into believing his father is an old man now, who would be grateful to Theon and follow his plan without a second thought. But we can assume from a quote from the beginning of the chapter that he doesn’t exactly have a good relationship with his father. “‘My father,’ she told him. ‘Once you’re gone, he’ll punish me, milord. He’ll call me names and hit me.’ Theon swept his cloak off its peg and over his shoulders. ‘Fathers are like that,’” And we have seen that his father indeed doesn’t shy away from physically hurting his son, besides the backhand there was also “His father slid his fingers under the necklace and gave it a yank so hard it was like to take Theon’s head off, had the chain not snapped first.” So we can assume that Theon was referring to Balon in the above quote, he remembers how his father was and yet he seems to have imagined a different version of him, one that would go along with his plan, and convinced himself that after all these years his father would have turned into this imaginary version. The Starks“’I was a boy of ten when I was taken to Winterfell. As a ward of Eddard Stark.’ A ward in name, a hostage in truth. Half his days a hostage... but no longer. His life was his own again, and nowhere a Stark to be seen.” Theon thinks a lot about the Starks, he is happy to be free and that there is “nowhere a stark to be seen.” But his relationship with the Starks is complicated. In this chapter he is trying to resent them because he needs to be a hard ironborn and they were his captors. But he clearly holds some inevitable affinity towards them, that he tries to deny at all cost. Especially after Aeron accuses Theon of being a stark he’s got some very interesting notions on his time spent in Winterfell: “As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father’s good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had. Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.”Clearly Theon has some understandable hard feelings towards Ned that he can draw on now. He even admits to his fear of him. At the moment, he’s hauling up his resentment of the Starks though. Aeron has just called him a Stark so he needs to deny their influence on him as much as possible. And yet, he can’t help but Think about Robb. Theon notes that only Robb and his “baseborn half-brother” were “worth his notice” he chides Jon for being jealous but “for Robb, Theon did have a certain affection, as for a younger brother… but it would be best not to mention that.” Funny, how as seen in his reunion with his father, Theon doesn’t follow his own advice. “It had been the same with the Mallisters, his companions on the ride from Riverrun to Seagard. Patrek Mallister was not too ill a fellow; they shared a taste for wenches, wine, and hawking. But when old Lord Jason saw his heir growing overly fond of Theon’s company, he had taken Patrek aside to remind him that Seagard had been built to defend the coast against reavers from the Iron islands, the Greyjoys of Pyke chief among them.” Since he notes how “it had been the same with the Mallisters” this is probably comparable to the treatment Theon occasionally got at Winterfell. He felt prejudiced and on occasions probably excluded simply for being a Greyjoy. “‘Why is my father not here to greet me?’ ‘He awaits you in the Sea Tower, m’lord. When you are rested from your trip.’ And I thought Ned Stark cold.”After this disappointment, Theon directly compares Ned Stark to his own father and even concludes that Ned Stark was better. “Ned Stark had killed neither of his brothers, in truth. Rodrik had been slain by Lord Jason Mallister at Seagard, Maron crushed in the collapse of the old south tower... but Stark would have done for them just as quick had the tide of battle chanced to sweep them together.”This quote is interesting because initially Theon defends Ned Stark when his father blames him for the deaths of his brothers, he considers how Ned actually wasn’t the one to kill them. but as a counter reaction he immediately follows up with “he would have done it” because as a Greyjoy and a captive of the Starks, he thinks he’s supposed to feel resentment towards them, just like his father. But clearly he has to force himself to feel this resentment. The Iroborn“Hard places breed hard men, and hard men rule the world.” Throughout the chapter we see that Theon’s time in the north certainly left its scars. He has forgotten much of the ironborn ways, and has a narrow-minded but romantic idea of them though strongly influenced by how the northmen view them, (he even unconsciously refers to them as “ironmen”) Theon’s childhood memories and his own romanticized interpretation. None the less Theon is trying to convince himself he’s ironborn through and through, that it is simply “in his blood”. He spends a lot of time thinking about the ironborn culture and history, probably partly due to the fact that GRRM wanted to properly introduce us to the ironborn and their culture, to give us a better understanding of what kind of people they are. But it is also important to Theon as a character. He is on his way home and he is trying his best to behave like an ironborn so he reminds himself of all the knowledge he has about his people. Theon expresses an interest in ships and connects anything he can think of to the sea. It’s clearly a thought process he has forced upon himself as part of his fake identity, because currently it is all about being ironborn. “The sea meant freedom to the men of the Iron Islands. He had forgotten that until the Myraham had raised sail at Seagard.” The sea doesn't mean freedom to him just because; it means freedom to him because it means freedom to the Ironborn. And he uses it to remind himself he's also an Ironborn and he MUST consider the sea as freedom, because that’s a part of being an ironborn. Which is what Theon is trying to be. This is a perfect example of how Theon thinks about himself, he doesn’t begin with himself, he begins with “I am a Greyjoy” and then creates a person with certain aspects based on that, then applies those aspects to himself and tells himself that that’s who he is. Religion“Theon was more interested in ships than gods.”Theon is not interested in religion and thinks that ironborn aren’t either. They are however interested in ships (they are hard, brave, confident sailors after all) so Theon extends this to himself. “’Tell me true, nephew. Do you pray to the wolf gods now?’ Theon seldom prayed at all, but that was not something you confessed to a priest, even your father’s own brother.”One of the many signs that Theon’s narrow minded idea of the ironborn is far from what they really are. The ironborn value religion a lot. Priests are very well respected and powerful. And the idea of being superior and therefore having the right to reave, rape and pillage comes from the religious belief that the drowned god created them in his own image. The entire ironborn culture rests upon the shoulders of their religious beliefs. If Theon understood this, he would have included that in the identity he created for himself. But he has a warped view of the ironborn culture to begin with. And it doesn’t rest on anything but his own romanticized version of it, and the belief that “that is simply how ironborn are” Theon’s vanityTheon’s love for fine clothes gets touched upon a few times in this chapter and I think it’s very important because this is the one thing that belongs entirely to Theon, it’s not something he’s learned as a defense mechanism or something he pushed on himself as part of his fake identity. “The fool still did not know him. He should have worn his good doublet, with the kraken embroidered on the breast.”Theon thinks he’ll get recognized if he dresses better, which we find out is not the truth at all. This is a serious misconception about the ironborn that Theon has. He probably always considered he’d get more respected in better clothes as a way of showing off his high born status. Being dressed well is something Theon enjoys so he assumes others do too and he’s added it to his concept of what he thinks people are like. “Theon knelt. He had a purpose here, and might need Aeron’s help to achieve it. A crown was worth a little mud and horseshit on his breeches, he supposed.”Theon actually think that getting his clothes dirty is a high price to pay, though worth it for a crown. He’s clearly very attached to his clothes and kneeling down in the mud bothers him. “Theon stripped off his travel-stained clothing and dressed to meet his father. He chose boots of supple black leather, soft lambswool breeches of silvery-grey, a black velvet doublet with the golden kraken of the Greyjoys embroidered on the breast. Around his throat he fastened a slender gold chain, around his waist a belt of bleached white leather. He hung a dirk at one hip and a longsword at the other, in scabbards striped black- and-gold. Drawing the dirk, he tested its edge with his thumb, pulled a whetstone from his belt pouch, and gave it a few licks. He prided himself on keeping his weapons sharp.” This whole paragraph shows how much care Theon puts in dressing nicely, thinking his father with appreciate it. Unfortunately he does not:“’Did Ned Stark dress you like that?’ his father interrupted, squinting up from beneath his robe. ‘Was it his pleasure to garb you in velvets and silks and make you his own sweet daughter?’ Theon felt the blood rising to his face. ‘I am no man’s daughter. If you mislike my garb, I will change it.’” Observations: “That was where Robert had made his breach, swarming in over the rubble and corpses with his warharnmer in hand and Ned Stark at his side. Theon had watched from the safety of the Sea Tower, and sometimes he still saw the torches in his dreams, and heard the dull thunder of the collapse.”Theon apparently witnessed some of the fighting and he still has nightmares about it. Conclusion:Theon starts off overly confident but those feelings can’t last when he’s confronted with the truth and has to fight to keep his fantasies alive. The inner struggle of Stark vs Greyjoy is clearly visable as well. He can’t stop thinking about the Starks (Robb in particular) and tries to measure up by forcing thoughts about the ironborn and all that is related to them (according to Theon) upon himself. “A boy they took,” his father said. “What are you now?” “A man,” Theon answered. “Your blood and your heir.”In a way this is the essence of the entire chapter. Theon is trying to prove himself to be this “man” and hiding all his insecurities, feelings of shame and vulnerability by acting like the macho identity he’s created for himself. But since this personality is fake, it is fragile and he needs to constantly feed it by criticizing and insulting others and acting arrogant. And anything that threatens this fake personality to be destroyed, or seen through by others scares Theon and makes him angry and lash out, in order to keep it standing. He denies everything that doesn’t compute with his superiority and others seeing this superiority and instead comes up with explanations that suit his needs. Theon is a very unreliable narrator, everything is filtered through his fake identity and he constantly forces thoughts and emotions upon himself and tries to suppress others, but as a reader it’s usually possible to see what is real and what is not, it is however, not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 and than finally, I move on to his second clash chapter: THEON II Summary:Theon goes to the Harbor to look at his very own longship, while admiring her, he meets a girl who calls herself “Esgred.” She’s bold and fierce and Theon immediately takes an interest in her, he convinces her to accompany him on his way back to Pyke. Theon fetches his new squire, Wex and horse, smiler and they go on their way to Pyke. Theon shamelessly fondles Esgred but doesn’t complain when she turns the conversation to his family, he shares with her his future plans and thoughts of his uncles, father and sister.Upon their arrival at Pyke Esgred reveals herself to be Asha and Theon is shocked and disgusted. When he asks Asha why she played him, she tells him that she wanted to “know who he was.” That evening during the big feast, everyone seems to be aware of exactly what happens and with Asha at the front of the line, he gets mocked in front of the entire room. After the feast, Lord Balon withdraws with Victarion, Aeron, Asha, and Theon to reveal his plans. Theon gets 8 ships and will be supervised by Aeron and Dagmer to raid the stony shore, while Asha gets thirty ships to attack Deepwood Motte. Theon deems this unfair. Analysis:Theon and EsgredTheon apparently likes bold women, and yet he still fails to understand that gender stereotypes don’t apply to everyone. The chapter starts with Theon at the harbor, beholding his first very own ship “She was undeniably a beauty. But your first is always beautiful, Theon Greyjoy thought.”We again have Theon “knowing” things. He knows that “your first is always beautiful” even though he hasn’t had any other ships so he can’t compare to what it was like to have a second or third… we later find out that Theon is rather ashamed of it only being his first, ”‘It has been a few years since I sailed a ship.’ And I’ve never captained one, if truth be told. ‘Still, I’m a Greyjoy, and an ironman. The sea is in my blood.’” which makes sense, he got behind on things because he was away from home for so long. Balon captained his first ship when he was 17, while Theon is already 19, and Theon did none of the many things Balon did even before this. So he is pretending to have more experience than he does, to feel like he belongs. So he chooses to not say the part about never having captained a ship, out loud. His attention is shifted when he meets Asha, who is pretending to be Esgred and who successfully seduces him. “Theon turned to give her an appraising glance. He liked what he saw. Ironborn, he knew at a glance; lean and longlegged, with black hair cut short, wind-chafed skin, strong sure hands, a dirk at her belt.” He knows so well what ironborn are like, doesn’t he? I mean he’s on the iron islands but still it’s special that he KNOWS she’s ironborn “at a glance”. But Theon needs to make himself feel like he knows so much about what ironborn are like, to prove to himself that he belongs here, that he IS part of a society and that he knows exactly how to fit in there. Why? Because he knows it’s not true and it scares him. The most important aspect if this event is Asha’s behavior and the effect it has on Theon. “He liked the way she walked; there was a boldness to it, part saunter and part sway, that suggested she would be just as bold beneath the blankets.“ Theon likes her boldness, her dominance and it’s interesting to contrast this with his relationship with the captain’s daughter in the previous chapter. A girl who did anything and everything he asked. Yet he was at best bored with her, at worst annoyed, even more so he disrespected her every chance he got. But Esgred, Esgred he tries to please at all cost. He complements her “’Yes, she’s a sweet sight,’ he told her, ‘though not half so sweet as you.’”, speaks about love after talking to her for what? 5 minutes… “’When you’re wrinkled and grey and your teats hang past your belly, you can tell your children’s children that once you loved a king.’ ‘Oh, is it love we’re talking now? And here I thought it was just cocks and cunts.’” And proclaims that he will please her however she wants. Theon clearly has a thing for dominant women. “He’d decided that he liked this wench, whoever she was; her sharp wit was a welcome respite from the damp gloom of Pyke.” He contradicts himself with this line, in his previous chapter he claims that he “never required a woman to be clever”, but clearly this is not true. I’m pretty sure Theon has had women like Esgred before but he always seems to adapt to the situation, so when he has the captain’s daughter he suddenly “never required a woman to be clever.” It’s also important to add that not long after this Theon asks for her council on which men to choose for his crew, but not because he’s actually interested “Let her believe I want her wisdom, women fancy that.” Theon likes to feel like he is an expert in things, it gives him confidence and considering his experience with women he believes that he knows what they like/don’t like, helpfully generalizing the entire gender. “Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?” this is another interesting line because Theon is offering her Jewels and romance, things a typical simplified girly girl would like, but Theon has just established that Esgred is not like that. The very things Theon likes about her is that she’s bold and dominant, things that are usually considered rather masculine. Theon has a very classic idea of gender stereotypes and the fact that what he likes about Esgred is what sets her apart from the classic female stereotype doesn’t seem to prevent him from still applying that stereotype to her. Theon tends to ignore his own problems with gender stereotypes too and applies the typical stereotype for men to himself, to help himself ignore that he loves looking pretty and loves dominant women. (“’You would be wherever you liked.’ ‘I like to be on top.’ Where has this wench been all my life?”) This is the real Theon, the one he’s hiding underneath the whole “I have so much sex with girls and I never require a woman to be clever, all I care about is the sex cause that’s what men are supposed to care about right?” In short Esgred seems to be the exact kind of girl he likes and he’s very surprised by it he even wants to “keep her”. Unlike what he did with the captain’s daughter Theon thinks nothing but positive things about Esgred “She is easy to talk to, gods praise her, he reflected. I feel as though I’ve known her for years. If the wench’s pillow play is half the equal of her wit, I’ll need to keep her...” what I can conclude from this about Theon is that he likes a smart independent woman who will tell him what she thinks and who’s rather dominant. Theon pretends (to himself and others) that he doesn’t care to even have a conversation with women that all he cares about is the sex and that he likes to be the dominant one (because all his boasting is about being so grown up, in control and manly), but clearly this is a lie he tells himself. Feeling like a stranger Ever since he arrived on the Iron islands, Theon has told himself every which way that he belongs here. But no matter what he does, no matter how many references to the sea he makes and how many times he tells himself that “the sea is in his blood” and he is interested in ironborn things. He can’t shake that feeling of not belonging. Because after 10 years, he has changed. Theon feels like an outsider on the iron islands and Esgred is to him a way to feel like he belongs. Because Theon does actually like her, he likes her boldness he likes her wit, he likes women who are dominant and have other features generally considered masculine. And this is something that isn’t appreciated in women in the north, but it is on the iron islands, because the ironborn value strength above all and they do connect it to the male gender but when a female shows it, they will respect her that much more for it. This is something that Theon has in common with ironborn mentality. Something that is an actual part of his identity, not a part that he had to create in order to feel like he belongs. However, as a man he “should have” the same features and Theon does not. But he likes to pretend he does.It’s mentioned several times during his conversation with Esgred that Theon feels like a stranger: “He’d looked for a few of the friends he’d played with as a boy, but they were gone, dead, or grown into strangers. “Connected to this and the point I made before about Theon feeling unsure about only captaining his first ship now. Is the fact that Theon keeps referencing the sea any time he gets a chance: “’Would you make me your captain for the night, my lord prince?’ She had the wickedest smile he’d ever seen on a woman. ‘I might. If I knew you’d steer me safe into port.’” Even sex is a reference to captaining a ship now!It’s all a part of being the most ironbornish he can possibly be. It’s overcompensation for feeling like a stranger and feeling unsure about belonging in this place that should feel like home but really doesn’t. But Theon needs it to be because he’s got nowhere else to go. This is it.“’The ironborn would never seat a stranger in the Seastone Chair.’ ‘I suppose not,’ Theon replied, before it occurred to him that some would call him a stranger as well. The thought made him frown. Ten years is a long while, but I am back now, and my father is far from dead. I have time to prove myself.” Another cause for anxiety: if he IS a stranger, will he ever be accepted? For now he can shake that thought by thinking about his glorious future, the anxiety is still there though. Smiler“Theon had spent ten years in Winterfell, and did not intend to go to war without a good mount beneath him. Lord Botley’s misjudgment was his good fortune: a stallion with a temper as black as his hide, larger than a courser if not quite so big as most destriers. As Theon was not quite so big as most knights, that suited him admirably. The animal had fire in his eyes. When he’d met his new owner, he’d pulled back his lips and tried to bite off his face. ‘Does he have a name?’ Esgred asked Theon as he mounted. ‘Smiler.’ He gave her a hand, and pulled her up in front of him, where he could put his arms around her as they rode. ‘I knew a man once who told me that I smiled at the wrong things.’ ‘Do you?’ ‘Only by the lights of those who smile at nothing.’ He thought of his father and his uncle Aeron. “A few observations about this quote:Theon seems to really love his horse and appreciates smiler’s attitude. I see him calling him smiler as a tribute to both of them not caring what other people think (even though Theon very much does! He’d just prefer to think he doesn’t)Who could this man that told Theon he smiled at all the wrong things be? Ned? Luwin? Rodrik? I’m guessing Luwin.I think it’s interesting that he immediately thinks of Aeron in relation to not smiling at anything now. It’s something he remembered of him from his youth that he was joking about everything. It seems to be really weighing heavy on him how much his uncle has changed. I think it contributes to Theon feeling like a stranger.A sore spotWhen Theon has to “tell himself”, it generally means we’re dealing with a deep insecurity. “In the islands it was scarce unheard of for a strong, ambitious uncle to dispossess a weak nephew of his rights, and usually murder him in the bargain. But I am not weak, Theon told himself, and I mean to be stronger yet by the time my father dies. ‘My uncles pose no threat to me,’ he declared.”This is a sore spot Asha touches on. Theon is very insecure about his weakness. As a child he was shy and meek something that would be considered synonyms for weakness in iron born culture, as a response his brothers beat him up and as the youngest child Theon couldn’t do anything but take it. As a captive he was also powerless, robbed of any control over his own life, as a result he feels helpless and out of control and he has to constantly do things to fuel feelings of control, something that can be seen over and over again in his chapters: the sex, the assholish behavior to anyone he can afford to behave that way towards… all of it is an attempt to feel in control, to feel more powerful. But in this quote Theon’s insecurity truly shows. He has to tell himself that he is not weak. If he KNEW already, he wouldn’t need to tell himself, it would be an obvious fact. But Theon does believe he is weak and thus needs to convince himself of the opposite. “Only a fool humbles himself when the world is so full of men eager to do that job for him.”Theon Greyjoy wisdom right there! He is convinced that everyone is out to get him, a rather pessimistic view of the people around him. It’s however not surprising that after all he’s been through, Theon expects nothing but contempt from others. The revelationUpon arriving at Pyke Theon discoveres who Esgred really is. His feelings of control are snatched away and as a response he projects himself onto Asha. “She kissed one of the dogs on the nose and grinned at Theon. All he could do was stand and gape at her. Asha. No. She cannot be Asha. He realized suddenly that there were two Ashas in his head. One was the little girl he had known. The other, more vaguely imagined, looked something like her mother. Neither looked a bit like this... this... this...”Theon is perplexed to say the least, he hadn’t even considered the possibility. Then again, who would have expected their sibling to play them like that? it’s important though that he had an image in his head of what Asha was supposed to look like and Theon puts too much faith in his own inventions, the thought of “well, Asha probably doesn’t look like this at all” probably never crossed his mind. He came up with his own version and considered it the right one, just like he does with most fantasies he comes up with.“Theon found his voice. ‘Why didn’t you tell me?’ Asha let go of the hound and straightened. ‘I wanted to see who you were first. And I did.’ She gave him a mocking half bow. ‘And now, little brother, pray excuse me. I need to bathe and dress for the feast. I wonder if I still have that chainmail gown I like to wear over my boiled leather smallclothes?’ She gave him that evil grin, and crossed the bridge with that walk he’d liked so well, half saunter and half sway.” It’s not just the fact that he was feeling up his sister that makes him so angry, it’s the fact that she managed to play him so well. That despite feeling like he was so in control he was not, he was being manipulated. And not just by anyone, he was being controlled by Asha, who simultaneously is someone who is supposed to care for him and a woman. Theon is always so sure he’s outsmarting people around him (he’s got a very classist and sexist way of thinking because it makes it easier to believe that he’s better if he follows up with those common prejudices) and to be proven wrong infuriates him. “He could not possibly have made a more appalling fool of himself. No, he thought then. She was the one who made me a fool. The evil bitch must have enjoyed every moment of it.”Theon is projecting himself onto Asha here, because who enjoys demeaning people? Theon himself. But to be on the receiving end of it, is an extremely painful experience for him because it highlights the insecurities he so desperately tries to ignore with said demeaning of others. To make himself feel better he will shove the blame on her, and in this case it is indeed her fault. However, it becomes clear that Theon still beats himself up for “allowing himself to be manipulated.” “I have no place here, he thought, and Asha is the reason, may the Others take her!” as stated before Theon has been feeling like a stranger, but now that he’s angry at her (rightfully so) he suddenly has an outlet for these emotions. He blames her for feeling like he doesn’t belong. The feastTo make matters worse, the mocking takes another turn during the feast. “Theon chose plain boots and plainer clothes, somber shades of black and grey to fit his mood.”Theon wears clothes according to his mood! That’s how obsessed he is with them. He has learned from his last experience though, no special expensive clothes that he bought with the golden price this time. But he still gets mocked for his previous mistake “And where are all your pretty clothes? I heard you fancied silk and velvet against your skin.” No matter what Theon does it won’t save him from what Asha has in store for him. It seems she has a witty answer prepared to whatever he says. “Theon took the empty seat beside Asha. Leaning close, he hissed in her ear, ‘You’re in my place.’ She turned to him with innocent eyes. ‘Brother, surely you are mistaken. Your place is at Winterfell.’”The more Asha mocks him the angrier Theon gets because he has no good answer to throw back at her, she has taken his illusion of control away and Theon can’t hide behind his own lies anymore. Before long the entire room is laughing at him. “He could not imagine how he looked at that moment, but suddenly Theon Greyjoy realized that the Great Hall was ringing with laughter, all of it at him. Even his father was smiling, gods be damned, and his uncle Victarion chuckled aloud. The best response he could summon was a queasy grin. We shall see who is laughing when all this is done, bitch.”And through losing control, Theon starts doubting himself again, his confidence is momentarily broken because he has been confronted with reality and he questions what he has considered to be “truths” for yours “Half my life I have waited to come home, and for what? Mockery and disregard? This was not the Pyke he remembered. Or did he remember? He had been so young when they took him away to hold hostage.” I think this proves that Theon isn’t as lost in his own lies as he appears to be on first glance, he will lie to himself to make him feel better when he can but when confronted with reality he has the ability to self-reflect, whether that self-reflection actually changes anything is another matter though. My guess is that he will just start the lies again and deny this brief self-reflection the moment he feels that he can. “’My little brother is in a rush to be off.’ Asha raised her drinking horn and beckoned for more ale. ‘Our lord father is waiting.’ ‘And has, for many a year. It will do him no harm to wait a little longer... but if you fear his wrath, scurry after him by all means. You ought to have no trouble catching our uncles.’ She smiled. ‘One is drunk on seawater, after all, and the other is a great grey bullock so dim he’ll probably get lost.’ Theon sat back down, annoyed. ‘I run after no man.’”Theon is easily manipulated. Asha already knows his weaknesses because whether Theon realizes it or not he is an open book, by overcompensating he reveals his insecurities. And Asha knows exactly how to play into them. By giving fake mocking reasons as to why Theon would “run after” their father, she knows Theon will do the opposite, because he can’t have anyone think that he is afraid of his father. Preparing for war“’I mean for you to strike the first blow, Theon. You shall take eight longships north-‘ ‘Eight?’ His face reddened. ‘What can I hope to accomplish with only eight longships?’ ‘You are to harry the Stony Shore, raiding the fishing villages and sinking any ships you chance to meet. It may be that you will draw some of the northern lords out from behind their stone walls. Aeron will accompany you, and Dagmer Cleftjaw.’ ‘May the Drowned God bless our swords,’ the priest said. Theon felt as if he’d been slapped. He was being sent to do reaver’s work, burning fishermen out of their hovels and raping their ugly daughters, and yet it seemed Lord Balon did not trust him sufficiently to do even that much. Bad enough to have to suffer the Damphair’s scowls and chidings. With Dagmer Cleftjaw along as well, his command would be purely nominal.”Theon is quick to assume that the reason Balon is sending Aeron and Dagmer with him is because he doesn’t trust him, while there could be a completely different reason. But Theon doesn’t reflect on possibilities, he assumes things (often negatively when he already feels slighted) and then takes those assumptions for the truth. RebellingTheon also keeps telling himself how much of a rebel he is “’Come back to Pyke with me,’ he said suddenly, thinking, what will Lord Balon say? And why should I care? I am grown, if I want to bring a wench to bed it is no one’s business but my own.” & “Theon had given the matter no little thought. It was fighters he wanted, and men who would be loyal to him, not to his lord father or his uncles. He was playing the part of a dutiful young prince for the moment, while he waited for Lord Balon to reveal the fullness of his plans. If it turned out that he did not like those plans or his part in them, however, well...” But Theon should realize that even if he tried it’s not in his power to change anything, he likes to think it is because of his control issues that I addressed in the last chapter analysis, he was thinking the same kind of stuff before meeting his father, back then he told himself that his father was old and it was “his time” but now he’s seen his father, he knows he can’t control him and yet he stays in denial about it. And we can see when plans are actually made that Theon can indeed do little to stand up for himself. Conclusion: Theon’s tendency to generalize genders (according to stereotypes) helps him with his confidence about his knowledge of women, and his own identity issues with his gender (he can put a gender stereotype onto himself, its part of his fake identity.) Ironically though, Theon appears to like women who break gender stereotypes.This chapter also strongly deals with Theon’s control issues. Theon likes to tell himself he is in control of well… everything. Asha takes away this illusion of control and Theon becomes increasingly angrier and has no idea at all how to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ornitorrinca Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 ... My problem with this argument (not that we’re having the argument right now but I have had it before) is that there is no possible way to prove either side. That’s why I am trying to stop having this argument altogether. Because I can say that according to what we know of Ned I don’t think it’d make sense for him not to do it, because Ned does his duty whether he likes it or not and when he agreed to take on Theon, taking his life in case his father rebelled became his duty. And he would have hated it and obviously hoped he wouldn’t have to do it but I think he’d have done it. I also think that Ned’s main problem with Dany and the Targaryan kids was that their deaths were unnecessary. In Theon’s case there was really no other solution and Ned is naïve, but he’s not that naïve also he respects the costums of the world he lives in (hostage taking is one of them. a pretty common one) what he had a problem with and was naïve about was the corruption. I even think that Ned agreed to take Theon himself as a way to do right by him, kind of like his “he who passes the sentence, should swing the sword” principle. Like, if this is going to happen I am not going to ignore it and I will take responsibility for it and I will feel the pain of it (in case I have to take his life.) (damn, see now I’m doing it again… but well, as long as the argument stays friendly I guess it’s ok) so yeah that’s my take on it, beside the reasons pointed out in the thing I linked about him having to go through with it because of reputation purposes. But I know there’s lots of people who disagree with me on this and personally I think they’re biased, but than they probably think I’m biased as well (and I probably am because everyone is biased, at least a little. Though, I try to stay as objective as I can I am still human so there is no absolute in that) AND, another reason why I’m trying to stop having this argument is that it usually grows from a conversation where it is irrelevant in the first place (in my personal experience) because I’m for example trying to talk about the issues Theon has developed through his time in Winterfell and explaining his behavior and somehow people interpret that as me saying the Starks are evil, even though I have never really blamed the Starks for Theon’s issues, I blame the system mostly. So the argument suddenly turns into “but it was no the Stark’s fault, Balon started the rebellion, blame him” or “Ned Stark would never have killed Theon” and at first I used to argue but at this point I just go “it’s irrelevant to my point” (argh, sorry for that rant, I’ve had these arguments way too many times for my own good) :thumbsup: (bolded part done by me) -- Yep, totally agree with you here. The issue isn't whether or not Theon was in serious danger, but how Theon would have perceived his status and its dangerous implications. Really, I'd never paid much attention to poor old Theon before and only mentioned the "why Ned?" part because it was the first time that question jumped out at me. That's why I'm really happy you're doing this re-read. It's a whole new way to look at the character. With regard to his affinity for fine clothes, he's not the only one in Winterfell who likes looking good. Sansa also takes care with her clothes. Maybe they both got the idea from Cat? Theon tends to fawn over her, seeking her approval during their scenes together. Even if it is part of his true identity, he must've pulled it from somewhere, and I can't imagine his childhood in the Iron Islands, though romanticized, could have been modified to include Ironborn walking around in velvet doublets (for which they'd paid the iron price..?). The only other thing that occurred to me is that he first got the notion from songs (which we know Sansa loved) or from the wandering bards who would occasionally visit Winterfell. For a hostage, seeing these nicely-dressed men who are free to come and go (and perhaps earn the love of Winterfell's household through the songs they offer) must have been at least a bit frustrating. It's going to take me awhile to read your newest analysis, I'm afraid, now that my vacation is over :bawl: , but please know that I look forward to reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I've always taken the "your first is always beautiful" as a double meaning. He's referring to his first ship in the language of sex: as in, "your first sexual partner is always beautiful" - which again harks back to the façade Theon throws up in order to conform to (what he thinks) are social expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ornitorrinca Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 In short Esgred seems to be the exact kind of girl he likes and he’s very surprised by it he even wants to “keep her”. Unlike what he did with the captain’s daughter Theon thinks nothing but positive things about Esgred “She is easy to talk to, gods praise her, he reflected. I feel as though I’ve known her for years. If the wench’s pillow play is half the equal of her wit, I’ll need to keep her...” what I can conclude from this about Theon is that he likes a smart independent woman who will tell him what she thinks and who’s rather dominant. Theon pretends (to himself and others) that he doesn’t care to even have a conversation with women that all he cares about is the sex and that he likes to be the dominant one (because all his boasting is about being so grown up, in control and manly), but clearly this is a lie he tells himself. ... “’The ironborn would never seat a stranger in the Seastone Chair.’ ‘I suppose not,’ Theon replied, before it occurred to him that some would call him a stranger as well. The thought made him frown. Ten years is a long while, but I am back now, and my father is far from dead. I have time to prove myself.” Another cause for anxiety: if he IS a stranger, will he ever be accepted? For now he can shake that thought by thinking about his glorious future, the anxiety is still there though. ... Smiler ... ‘Does he have a name?’ Esgred asked Theon as he mounted. ‘Smiler.’ He gave her a hand, and pulled her up in front of him, where he could put his arms around her as they rode. ‘I knew a man once who told me that I smiled at the wrong things.’ ... She gave him that evil grin, and crossed the bridge with that walk he’d liked so well, half saunter and half sway.” ... “Theon chose plain boots and plainer clothes, somber shades of black and grey to fit his mood.” Theon wears clothes according to his mood! That’s how obsessed he is with them. He has learned from his last experience though, no special expensive clothes that he bought with the golden price this time. But he still gets mocked for his previous mistake “And where are all your pretty clothes? I heard you fancied silk and velvet against your skin.” No matter what Theon does it won’t save him from what Asha has in store for him. It seems she has a witty answer prepared to whatever he says. ... “He could not imagine how he looked at that moment, but suddenly Theon Greyjoy realized that the Great Hall was ringing with laughter, all of it at him. Even his father was smiling, gods be damned, and his uncle Victarion chuckled aloud. The best response he could summon was a queasy grin. We shall see who is laughing when all this is done, bitch.” ... I really liked the flow of the conversation between Theon and Asha. It reminded me of a Shakespearean comedy, with all the double entendres and one-upmanship, and the cleverer character comes out "on top" ...as she likes it, apparently. Yeah, Asha knows exactly how to press his buttons and, very importantly in terms of making him feel like shit, she knows how to water those seeds of self-doubt that Theon’s been unwillingly cultivating for years. There appears to be a big (multi-generational) problem with bullying in the Greyjoy family. We know Theon was a victim of bullying at the hands of his older brothers but that he played with his sister. Was she, too, a victim of Rodrik and Maron? She might be perpetuating the abuse (mentally and emotionally as opposed to physically) she suffered years ago. Balon clearly appreciated and trusted Asha more than Theon; I’m not sure the terrible way she mocks him at the feast was really necessary to cement her place as the preferred Greyjoy child. Or maybe being an asshole to your family members is an integral part of Ironborn life… With regards to his relationships with females, I think it’s interesting the differences between his treatment of Esgred and of the captain’s daughter (what is it with Greyjoys not bothering with names for their “women?” The Dusky Woman, indeed) – I think you’re right about him liking dominant women and looking down on submissive women. Post-Ramsay, we’ll see how he’s developed his ability to empathize with a girl whose free will and dignity have been stripped to nothing. At one point, Theon thinks to be stronger once Balon dies, but when his dad finally kicks the bucket, Theon will be in much worse shape than he currently is. Thoughts like this, coupled with his declaration about not humbling himself when the rest of the world would gladly do it for him, just set him up so badly for his not-so-distant future. Smiling seems so important in Theon’s arc. Now, he's still smiling all the time – and at the wrong things (just that he remembers that remark shows how sensitive he is). He also doesn’t seem to learn any lessons about trusting other people. He fell for Asha’s smile and then later... I wonder a lot about the names of the horses in this series – we have Smiler, Dancer, Stranger, Honor and Glory (did I forget any?): all of them seem to bear some relation to something defining about the character, in most cases something they’ve lost. It’s sad that even Theon’s horse tries to bite his face off. Everybody wants a piece of him. Theon dressing in “somber shades of black and grey” made me laugh at his angstyness exhibited through his choice of clothes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I think the clothing thing is interesting: where, exactly, does Theon get his dandyish taste in clothes? None of this current generation of Starks are noted for such indulgence (Ned runs a very austere household). Few of the Northern Houses, except the Manderleys and (ironically) the Boltons go in for silks. This could be Theon trying to differentiate himself from his captors, or it could be a symbol of "home" (as imagined, rather than as it actually is). But did he have a role-model, or was this something young Theon came up with by himself? When Balon mocks Theon’s fancy clothing, he is almost right. Where would Theon have acquired such fine clothing if not from the Starks? I agree that this pride in dressing nicely is something that is pure Theon, one of the few things that is really "by him, for him." But Ned and Cat must have indulged this, by letting him have these beautifully embroidered kraken doublets, gold chains and Greyjoy-colored scabbards. Sorry these posts are so long!! Now at least I'm on the same page as the rest of the participants in this re-read... Looking forward to seeing what you notice in the next analysis! Even Roose later mentions Theon's penchant for fancy clothes in ADWD, during his discussion with Reek IIRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainGhost Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Another great chapter analysis INCBlackbird. One thing I really like about your analyses is that you don’t shy from highlighting Theon’s faults. Some rereads gloss over the character’s faults but I think to fully appreciate a character you have to love them with their faults. I like your analysis on Theon and Esgred and how this highlights that Theon likes dominant women. I’d never thought of it that way before. A dominant woman would be perfect for Theon. I think we can also see this in the respect he has for Catelyn, who’s a strong character. I understand Asha’s attitude towards Theon here because she’s been raised as the heir and Theon is threatening that status. It’s a shame that they’re pit against each other from the beginning because they get on really well and as we see later from Asha’s POV, she’s one of the few people who actually cares about him. Unfortunately, she doesn’t let Theon know this. “Only a fool humbles himself when the world is so full of men eager to do that job for him.” I actually think this is pretty smart thinking from Theon. Theon severely lacks in self-confidence and putting himself down or dwelling on his weaknesses is not going to help this. As is proven in this chapter, plenty of others do put Theon down and no one gives him support, which must be tough. Theon being given a lesser task than Asha makes perfect sense. Balon doesn’t know Theon, so he has to prove himself first. Not to mention that Balon has very good reason to question Theon’s loyalties. However, Theon wants recognition right now because he’s already insecure and it’s difficult having to start from the bottom again when he’s already proven himself in combat to the Starks. Telling Theon to attack the North at all is cruel, knowing he’s grown up there, not to mention it just destroys all the alliances and relationships Theon has built there but that’s Balon for you. It’s obviously his way of testing his loyalties and Theon does at least pass that test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Theon was so insecure and immature to start, that his age doesn't even matter, he needed so bad of love to grow as a person, that he got stucked from the get go... the need of paternal love was his downfall, neither Ned or Balon were this types of fathers and worst, i'm positive they didn't want to be any kind of paternal figures to Theon at all by some point. (Need of love probably should be the most poison need when you are a ironborn anyway, it won't end well like never). It was his destiny to make bad decisions, going agaisn't really bad odds, he could never grow outside his fantasies in part because his persona needed love, aproval and never got it. Ironbons and Northerns are so hard people and Theon was such a child in so many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 Responses and Thoughts on Theon I, A Clash of Kings “There was no safe anchorage at Pyke” – His opening thought; how sadly true this turns out to be for Theon! The description of his father’s castle reminds me of Theon's state by the time Ramsay’s through with him – battered, broken, but still standing. “Best of all, the direwolf of stark did not fly above, casting its shadow down upon the Greyjoy kraken.” This is the first flat-out indication that Theon isn’t 100% loyal to the Starks, as readers had been led to believe throughout AGoT and the beginning of ACoK. Later, we get more confirmation with the “and nowhere a Stark to be seen” line. Aeron to the Innkeeper: “I shall see my nephew back to his father’s house.” I sincerely hope Theon enjoyed the freedom of his voyage from Seagard to the Iron Islands, because it’s the only time he's actually free. He gets passed around, from Balon to Ned to Robb and his bannermen to Aeron to Balon again! “I will not be cheated of my rights, I warn you.” He says this thinking of Asha; it’s ironic for us, who know that later, Asha will grasp at this exact line of thinking to contend that the Kingsmoot is, well, moot.AAAAH! I have so many posts to reply to! Thank you all for you patience. so let me get to this: I really like those points you made. Theon is indeed a lot like Pyke after what Ramsay did to him. Broken but on it's way to recovery. and I even think that Theon will be part of the reason the (progressive) rebuilding of pyke. I find his relationship with the Mallisters interesting. He and Patrek get along and even if he thinks it’s just based on their mutual interests of “wenches, wine, and hawking”, he clearly likes the guy. Even more interesting is what he thinks of Patrek’s father, Jason, who killed Theon’s brother, Rodrik. Earlier, Theon internally expresses bitterness at how Ned Stark had sometimes tried to be “the father”, but was always “the man who had brought fire and blood to Pyke”. It doesn’t seem like Theon had a very happy childhood based on what he says and his memories of his brothers (he was probably exaggerating to Patrek, but his brothers really did treat him terribly). That he forgave Jason Mallister so easily speaks to the fact that he wasn’t so upset about what happened to his family in the Greyjoy Rebellion. I think his thoughts on Ned “the father” are two-fold: On one hand, he’s comparing his family life pre-Rebellion to what he sees of the Stark family and feeling jealousy for not really belonging to their happy family; and on the other hand, he’s trying to view the Starks as he thinks his father perceives them. Later, in Balon’s presence, he reasons to himself that Ned “would have” put his brothers to the sword if need be: and now, killing Rodrik and Maron is a bad thing!Honestly, I think this is just more proof for my point that Theon constantly changes his own thoughts/emotions/personality to match the situation he's in. Though I do think he always draws upon something real, it's not like he makes stuff up. But when he's trying to have a good relationship with Patrek Mallister he'll draw upon all his negative experiences with his brothers to tell him that he has no hard feelings towards his father. When he's back at Pyke he'll be like "they're still my brothers and my father loved them if I want him to love me I should care about them too" so then he will resent people for their death. On the other hand I find it kind of remarkable that despite that, he still goes "Ned Stark didn't kill my brothers in truth" (I'm paraphrasing) like, initially he internally defends Ned against his father, that is his first reflex but than he realizes that he's at home and he should resent him so he goes "But he would have!" When Balon mocks Theon’s fancy clothing, he is almost right. Where would Theon have acquired such fine clothing if not from the Starks? I agree that this pride in dressing nicely is something that is pure Theon, one of the few things that is really "by him, for him." But Ned and Cat must have indulged this, by letting him have these beautifully embroidered kraken doublets, gold chains and Greyjoy-colored scabbards. Sorry these posts are so long!! Now at least I'm on the same page as the rest of the participants in this re-read... Looking forward to seeing what you notice in the next analysis!I think that since Theon is a noble, he probably had a lot of money himself, His father did probably sent money to him, I imagine that was common practice when a noble child was take hostage. I don't know though, I haven't looked it up, if we even know how this stuff went at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 :thumbsup: (bolded part done by me) -- Yep, totally agree with you here. The issue isn't whether or not Theon was in serious danger, but how Theon would have perceived his status and its dangerous implications. Really, I'd never paid much attention to poor old Theon before and only mentioned the "why Ned?" part because it was the first time that question jumped out at me. That's why I'm really happy you're doing this re-read. It's a whole new way to look at the character. With regard to his affinity for fine clothes, he's not the only one in Winterfell who likes looking good. Sansa also takes care with her clothes. Maybe they both got the idea from Cat? Theon tends to fawn over her, seeking her approval during their scenes together. Even if it is part of his true identity, he must've pulled it from somewhere, and I can't imagine his childhood in the Iron Islands, though romanticized, could have been modified to include Ironborn walking around in velvet doublets (for which they'd paid the iron price..?). The only other thing that occurred to me is that he first got the notion from songs (which we know Sansa loved) or from the wandering bards who would occasionally visit Winterfell. For a hostage, seeing these nicely-dressed men who are free to come and go (and perhaps earn the love of Winterfell's household through the songs they offer) must have been at least a bit frustrating. It's going to take me awhile to read your newest analysis, I'm afraid, now that my vacation is over :bawl: , but please know that I look forward to reading it. Honestly, I think his obsession with looking nice is a form of replacement for other things he misses. like, he doesn't really get any love so he decides that if he looks nice and the ladies like him, he can consider that love and forget about the real love he's missing. I think it's also a way to make himself feel better "I may not be liked by people a lot but look at how gorgeous I look, I am awesome" he can draw confidence from it. and because he is a handsome guy it's probably something he focussed on. I also think he completely forgot ironborn aren't like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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