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Will Bran convince Jon to be KITN?


ImpinDornish

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I apologise if there's another thread like this... Do feel free to link me!

I've been mulling this over a bit. We know that Bran comes to Jon in a dream in Clash. In ASOS Bran, in Summer's body, says that he can sense the other direwolves, even though they are many, many leagues apart. So it gets me thinking... If Jon enters Ghost's body during his "death" for a time, until he's resurrected, this should make things easier for Bran to communicate with his brother, correct?

So, with Bran basically tapping the phone (trees, birds, etc) lines of every person in the north and beyond, it probably won't take him long to listen in on all these people plotting to adhere to Robb's will and instate Jon as KITN. If you're familiar with the Grand Northern Conspiracy you'll know that several key leaders in the north are plotting carefully to make sure Robb's will is carried out and a strong KITN is put in place, and soon. Whether you agree with the GNC is another argument for another time, but I for one have supported the theory.

With Bran easily having access to the plots (he simply needs to warg into a crow while plans are being made), he's in a perfect position to communicate the details to Jon while he's in Ghost's body. I've held the view that Bran has no desire to be Lord of Winterfell. As we know from ASOS, when given the option in Tumbledown Tower to either go seek out the Umbers, Karstarks, the Manderleys or head north to find BR, he weeps as he recalls that if he stays South of the wall, he will always be "Bran the Broken," and chooses to go north because he wants to fly. Excerpt:

Bran realised he was crying. Stupid baby, he thought at himself. No matter where he went, to Karhold or White Harbor or Greywater Watch, he'd be a cripple when he got there. He balled his hands into fists. "I want to fly," he told them. "Please. Take me to the Crow."

- Bran I, ASOS

I do not see Bran ever having the desire to be KITN or Lord of Winterfell while he has the ability to escape his disability by warging into anything he pleases. I believe he will accept that he can do more for his family as "Bran the Beastling," than as Bran the Broken in his seat at WF. It is for this reason I think Bran will be the one to convince Jon to become the KITN. Bran will be the one to tell him that Robb himself made him his heir and he needs to band the North together to fight the Others. I think this needs to happen in the next book because if the real war doesn't start soon it's going to be one hell of an anti-climax. If the war starts without a proper leader, not only for the NW, but for the entire north, Westeros is doomed.

I believe that Jon will "bend the rules" regarding his vows of taking no crowns in order to serve the greater good, which is to guard the realm. To live and die for the realm. Now, he could take this crown temporarily and hand it back to Rickon in ADOS, but for TWOW I believe he needs to be the hero of the north to fight The Others. I don't think Jon will take the title of Lord of Winterfell, but there's nothing to say that just because you're KITN that you also MUST be Lord of WF. Just as Jaime can be Warden of the East even though he's from Casterly Rock and will never be Lord of the Eyrie.

I think that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is where Rickon comes in. With a suitably qualified castellan he can be the Stark in WF during the war. He is not old enough to rule as King anyway and nobody would follow such a young boy. But Jon is already LC of the NW. Suitably qualified to lead troops. Military minded and (mostly) selfless in his duty to protect the realm.

I believe Bran will be the one to tell Jon he needs to join the northern houses together, just as he's brought the Wildlings into the fold too. Knowing that Robb named him his heir will be easy for him to digest rather than an offer from someone like Stannis. I think it will also serve Jon if Bran tells him that many Lords and Lady's are already plotting to put his ass on the throne and it is his duty to protect the north just as its Bran's duty to take up his responsibilities being a tree (lol). Obviously the return of Rickon will cause friction with Stannis,Mas will the reveal of Robb's will, but ultimately Stannis doesn't command the loyalty of the northerners. They just prefer him because they know they will only suffer under the Boltons. Bolton and Stannis both know that if a Stark turns up, they're in deep shit. But when that Stark is a legitimised Jon STARK, named KITN by the chosen King Robb, well, it will be a handshake for Stannis and a "thanks buddy, but we're Stark men," and that will be the end of him. Obviously Stannis will end up dead because he'll fight such a slight against the "Kingdom which is his by rights," but he won't win.

What I think will be interesting is what Sansa will do when she hears that Rickon is back in WF and Jon has been named KITN and a legitimised Stark. Will she finall grow some Stark-sized-balls and rally the Lords of the Vale to join the war - the real war? I think by the time Jon is back, Sansa will be Sansa again and not "Alayne," and Jon should be able to get messages to her telling her about The Others and that all of Westeros will suffer if they don't join. The Lords of the Vale have been itching for a fight. Undoubtedly they feel like pussies sitting out of the War of the Five Kings so now they have an opportunity to reclaim a bit of honour and dignity and they'll answer the call.

I don't think GRRM will fluff about with these plot lines as he needs to move the story along and get to the war. He's only got two books. AFFC and ADWD did a very good job of really dragging out character arcs and setting up tin plot details. Setting up the dominoes, if you will. Now it's time for it all to come rushing to a big finish over two big books.

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this is great!

but i don't think that jon even has to "bend" or break the rules. his watch ends, when he's dead, right? so if he truly dies and wargs into ghost for the meantime.... is he still bound to the night's watch when he is resurrected? especially since his (former) brothers were the ones who killed him...

also: does he need to be legitimised in case he ISN'T in the NW anymore? he is the only heir to ned who is believed to be alive, so i think winterfell is his, even if he still is a snow. feel free to correct me, i'm not that savvy about heritage rules and lines of succession in westeros

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this is great!

but i don't think that jon even has to "bend" or break the rules. his watch ends, when he's dead, right? so if he truly dies and wargs into ghost for the meantime.... is he still bound to the night's watch when he is resurrected? especially since his (former) brothers were the ones who killed him...

also: does he need to be legitimised in case he ISN'T in the NW anymore? he is the only heir to ned who is believed to be alive, so i think winterfell is his, even if he still is a snow. feel free to correct me, i'm not that savvy about heritage rules and lines of succession in westeros

Well, i think Jon will use the "well, technically I did die" as his reasoning to bend the rules. Ultimately he'll feel like a a man of the NW in his heart but he'll accept his true responsibility is to the realm. That's what I think anyway.

If my theory proves correct, I'm sure Bran can inform Jon of Rickon's survival and the Lords plotting to put Jons ass in the throne also need to actually confirm that is their plan (Jon can't just take that title and say his brother came to him while he was dead) and bend the knee to Jon. I'm sure Manderly can fill Jon in on the details regarding his plan to fetch Rickon from Skagos. Winterfell isn't his if he doesn't want it. Yes, he was named heir by Robb because Robb thought his brothers were dead but my belief is that Jon, hearing of Rickon's survival, won't take WF from his brother. Besides, if he's resurrected all the plot details regarding R+L=J is going to come out and he'll know he's a Targ and only a Stark on his mothers side. He won't take WF, but as stated above, I don't believe he needs to necessarily be a Stark/Lord of WF in order to accept the title of KITN.

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Does Bran actually have to stay in the cave to warg things? I thought he could do it anywhere, which means he can still fly and be KITN.

Yes but Bran still has a lot of training to do. Presumably that'll take years and then it's a long way back to WF. I think Bran will be staying north during the invasion to help from where he is the most powerful and has BR there to guide him. Maybe he'll return after the war and accept the title which Jon will hand back to him. But then, Jon might be getting crowned King of the Seven Kingdoms if R+L=J is true (I don't think that will happen, personally (the crown won't happen, the R+L part will) so he'll have all sorts of stuff to make decisions about

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One thing I often hear that Stannis would not want a Stark in Winterfell. He was trying to get Jon legitimized so he could be the Lord of Winterfell. Stannis wants the Iron throne and seems to be willing to do what he needs to to unite the North to his cause. In addition besides, the wildlings and knights watch he seems to be the only one that wants to save the realm from the Whites. I think he is doomed no matter what and that Bran and Jon will have a huge role to play but there are many ways I could see this going down.

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One thing I often hear that Stannis would not want a Stark in Winterfell. He was trying to get Jon legitimized so he could be the Lord of Winterfell. Stannis wants the Iron throne and seems to be willing to do what he needs to to unite the North to his cause. In addition besides, the wildlings and knights watch he seems to be the only one that wants to save the realm from the Whites. I think he is doomed no matter what and that Bran and Jon will have a huge role to play but there are many ways I could see this going down.

I see Stannis as being divided about the Starks and the North in general. He openly declared Robb a usurper and traitor from his point of view and was disdainful of the North's loyalty to the King in the North. Putting a Stark in Winterfell represents both the possibility to unite the North under his banner but also to stoke their separatist tendencies. Jon Snow would've been immune from Robb's "treason" given he was in the Night's Watch however.

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I think after having Stannis help save everyone from the Wildlings taught him that you can't stay out of the realms of men because technically all the soldiers in the NW are from all those same realms. I think he'l realize he'll need all the realms to realize this threat beyond the wall and address it and for that he needs to be at a place of power instead of struggling with limited resources. So he'll leave the NW and make his claim either at Winterfell as a Stark or Westeros as a Targaryen and rebuild the NW in the way he knows it will succeed in case this happens again and it probably will.


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I see Stannis as being divided about the Starks and the North in general. He openly declared Robb a usurper and traitor from his point of view and was disdainful of the North's loyalty to the King in the North. Putting a Stark in Winterfell represents both the possibility to unite the North under his banner but also to stoke their separatist tendencies. Jon Snow would've been immune from Robb's "treason" given he was in the Night's Watch however.

I think his biggest issue with Robb is that the North declared for itself unlike Ned who declared for him. I do agree with the above statement that Stannis seems to have learned a lot about being more tolerant of the other kingdoms. Although he is not the forgiving and forgetting type. With Stannis everything seems to be a means to an end. His ultimate goal is to save the realm he hopes to one day rule. Some things he said leaves me to believe he is willing to move on from his hate of Rob.

" These pardoned lords would do well to reflect on that. Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same of Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother’s banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten.[43]"

It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident.[22]

"

Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. [25]

– Stannis, to Jon Snow

He seems like he has grown since a clash of kings. I believe he is utlimatley doomed, but he won't wide from trying to save the realm

even GGRM agrees with that

The real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man.[56]

George R. R. Martin

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The whole 'King in the North' gambit was a terrible idea. Robb is not a hero; he's an anti-villain (all the Stark children except Bran and Jon are in fact anti-villains, in different ways, and I'm betting on Jon becoming the Night's King as well). A united Westeros stands a far better chance of defeating the Others, so I knew the moment Umber bent the knee that Robb was doomed. Since Robb's will is still floating around, and the Blackfish is at large, that plotline may not yet be concluded, I am as certain as can be that at the end of the story, there will once again be one king for the Seven Kingdoms.


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The whole 'King in the North' gambit was a terrible idea. Robb is not a hero; he's an anti-villain (all the Stark children except Bran and Jon are in fact anti-villains, in different ways, and I'm betting on Jon becoming the Night's King as well). A united Westeros stands a far better chance of defeating the Others, so I knew the moment Umber bent the knee that Robb was doomed. Since Robb's will is still floating around, and the Blackfish is at large, that plotline may not yet be concluded, I am as certain as can be that at the end of the story, there will once again be one king for the Seven Kingdoms.

I think in the end there maybe one king/queen os all of Westeros and Maybe all of Essos too

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  • 2 weeks later...

There are several factors to think about when dealing with Jon and his kingship.

His reaction too being named heir, which might please him because its validation that hes a stark even after all Cat did to make him feel otherwise.

Sansa and Lf and what his plans are and Im banking on then revolving around Harry the Heir.(Karstark), works both ways no doesn't it.

Not to mention for some reason I keep picturing Myranda Royce and her brother turning up on the wall, with news and a marriage proposal.

Manderly and his heir is another factor as Manderly is not making it ouf of WF alive and we don't know how much he told his heir about his suppose support for Stannis

let's also not foget about lady Dustin and what her intentions might be, namely naming a snow as the king and not Rickon.

lastly there is Jon himself beyond what the real! Need and what he wants and how does he justify leaving his boss behind. Then there is Bran and his convincing Jon to take to helm.

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Does Bran actually have to stay in the cave to warg things? I thought he could do it anywhere, which means he can still fly and be KITN.

Plus he can probably do his tree thing under any weirwood. He's just gotta find a shovel and a freakishly strong servant who obeys him without question without talking back to do the digging. Hmm.

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I think the whole ASOIAF is becoming a tragic comedy of errors for these last few books. People make plans, but then the people upon whom these plans depend die, and what then? I agree with the Northern Conspiracy, but with Jon dead it will all depend on Rickon being found. I think Lord Manderly probably sent Davos after Rickon so he didn't have all his eggs in one basket with Jon. When word gets out about Jon's death, who knows what will happen? The northern lords might decide to just continue following Stannis. Why follow a child who may or may not be alive? And how can we be certain that Rickon is on Skagos? - misinformation abounds in this series.



Recently I've been some essays on the Merenese Blot and a few other sites which have convinced me that the next two books will have several bloodbaths in the making - not letting any of the characters accomplish any of which they want to accomplish. The whole theme of the ASOIAF universe concerns the "game of thrones", which is the fight for power. Many fight it for many different reasons, but all eventually lose. GRRM's central lesson in the whole book (among many others) is that fighting for power never gives you what you want - you either lose and die like Robb or Ned, or you end up old, wasted away and useless like Robert Baratheon, or you end up souless and evil (and likely to lose and die anyway) like Cersei and Littlefinger. There are no winners because even when you win you still lose - so you might as well just enjoy your life while you have it.



Bran may have some part in convincing Jon to become KITN, if that is where the arc leads, but if so it will be just pictures, not a flat out conversation. Jon is going to be a wolf for a while - since GRRM was quoted as saying that Jon is not dead, but may not necessarily be in human form. So as a dog, can he really understand speech? Remember, it is said that wargs will actually forever become what they've warged into if they stay too long - which leads me to believe that as a wolf, Jon will think like a dog, be like a wolf, not a man. So I don't really see that happening unless Bran just puts vague pictures into his head. But Jon being KITN is not really important - since we know it is not going to happen - it wouldn't advance the story much at all except to give the reader warm and fuzzy feelings. I'd sooner presume that Bran would tell him about his real father Rhaegar - that is something that could advance the story.





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