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Ashara Chose Ned


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Ive always been puzzled by the general take-away from ADWD that Brandon Stark deflowered Ashara Dayne.

Me too. I think there is more to the Ned-Ashara story than one dance at the Harrenhal tournament, and then the next time he sees her she kills herself.

It is interesting that Ned was 18 in the year of the false spring, meaning that he would be close to 20 by the time the Rebellion started, yet he is never linked romantically with any woman other than Ashara. Brandon is only a year older and he is already betrothed to Cat. Lyanna is a few years younger and she is betrothed to Robert. Rickard is making alliances in the south. How did Ned get so old with no betrothal? And wouldn't Rickard consider a southern match for his second son? He probably can't go for a Lannister or a Tyrell, but the daughter of an old, prominent House like the Daynes would be a good match. The Daynes also broaden Rickard's reach into a new region, and they are a good First Men family. What if the reason Brandon introduced Ned to Ashara was to to explore a possible marriage alliance?

For all we know, Ned and Ashara had an understanding and they were waiting until after Brandon's wedding to announce a betrothal. It is also possible that they were lovers from the time of the Harrenhal tournament until the day Ned had to marry Cat. Imagine their tearful parting when Ned told her he had to marry Cat, for duty, not knowing that Ashara was newly pregnant with his child. Perhaps this last meeting even took place at Harrenhal, where they had first met . . .

This would take on a new meaning:

"Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.

Because all Ned really wanted was to settle down with Ashara for a quiet life.

I have also seen the theory that Barristan's reference to "turning to Stark" probably means Ned because the characters in the books often use last names to refer to Lords. In AGOT, Aerys is "Targaryen" while Rhaegar is "Rhaegar," etc. Under this theory, when Ashara turned to "Stark" it means she turned to "Lord Stark." Brandon never was Lord Stark (he watched his father die), but Barristan knew Ned as Lord Stark for 15 years. So as far as Barristan is concerned, "Stark" means Ned.

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Catelyn is not Ashara. Despite what you might think a lot of women prefer quieter plainer more serious men and are turned off by firey types like Brandon (his rages? Ew). That is my problem wih the mud vs fire analogy. It outright states that all young girls want the same thing. That's the BS.

Keep in mind though,this is in a book filled with sexist tropes.

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Give any other example.

Gendry is more mud than fire and Arya definitely has a crush (Aryas the firey one between them).

Lysa likes LF. He's neither mud nor fire. As a kid though, he was probably like Sansa (believee in true love and that the underdog should win). Nothing like Brandon that's for sure.

Breinne is attracted to jaime only after he become much more staid / subdued / mud like.

Your examples:

How is Loras "fire"? He's hot, but that's about it. And anyway Sansa is drawn to the hound more so.

Arianne + Arys - Arys is totally mud, not fire. She's the fire in that pairing as well.

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the daughter of an old, prominent House like the Daynes would be a good match. The Daynes also broaden Rickard's reach into a new region, and they are a good First Men family. What if the reason Brandon introduced Ned to Ashara was to to explore a possible marriage alliance?

Great point, it does fit in with rickards other matches for his kids.

Imagine their tearful parting when Ned told her he had to marry Cat, for duty, not knowing that Ashara was newly pregnant with his child. Perhaps this last meeting even took place at Harrenhal, where they had first met . . .

Yes! I love this kind of stuff. And George IMO does too.

Everything is so much more moving and interesting if N+A. If B+A then.. What's the poi t? We've proved some cliche about nice guys finishing last? Blah, boring...

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I think Ashara chose Howland. Otherwise, why in the hell the Green Men sent him to a tourney? Is there any other crannogman attending to a tourney ever? And from the looks of it, Howland paid special attention to who danced with Ashara.


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As a point, I think narratively it would be far more interesting if Ned + Ashara was the case, with Jon as their child. If only because Jon being the new sword of the morning is far more interesting and story relevant than being the heir to the Iron Throne.

Do you subscribe to the theory that Ashara is not dead, but instead she has been hiding in Essos with Lyanna's son by Rhaegar? That, like Gilly, she had to give up her own child in order to protect someone else's?

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I think Ashara chose Howland. Otherwise, why in the hell the Green Men sent him to a tourney? Is there any other crannogman attending to a tourney ever? And from the looks of it, Howland paid special attention to who danced with Ashara.

This is interestng, never heard this one. but what's the narrative significance? And what exactly happened with the stark in the situation? Did howland and ashra have an affair and then she turned to Ned for comfort?

Is Ashara with howland now? Maybe she's meera and jojens mom?

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Possibly Ned had a crush, his eye on her, appreciated her beauty, etc. before Catelyn.



But I am taking Arya's word on it when Edric Dayne hit her with some info.



"That's not so. He loved my lady mother."



"She was the only one he loved."



It was hard for Arya to hear. Many people experience that as we get older. You have that image of parents or adult figures that changes as you get older and you can't believe it. You are young and it is so far from what you thought.



I believe Arya and Ned always had that special connection and understanding. And it would make sense that poor Ned carried this load with Jon his entire marriage, couldn't tell the truth, Cat will think the rest of her life his head was turned by someone else and they had Jon, but really he was faithful and truly loved her even more when he came home, they got to know each other, and the love grew. So by his death, any fancy or crush he had, was truly not like what he had with his wife.



That I can believe. It would be very moving if he did have his eye on Ashara and Brandon died, and he had to marry Cat. And he was upset but then he truly grew to love his wife, and it was sad but not just meant to be.



But I have a feeling that Brandon and Ashara might have hit it off.



I am still torn, but I do believe Ned loved Cat. Whatever road it took to get there I am not sure.



Brandon is interesting. Sometimes people make him sound like he was Robert. I don't know. Maybe he was. That is a good question. Did he have a particular love that was the "one." I don't think it was Cat. Maybe Ashara? Maybe Barbrey? Someone else. Or maybe not at all, and it is what it is.


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Gendry is more mud than fire and Arya definitely has a crush (Aryas the firey one between them).

Lysa likes LF. He's neither mud nor fire. As a kid though, he was probably like Sansa (believee in true love and that the underdog should win). Nothing like Brandon that's for sure.

Breinne is attracted to jaime only after he become much more staid / subdued / mud like.

Your examples:

How is Loras "fire"? He's hot, but that's about it. And anyway Sansa is drawn to the hound more so.

Arianne + Arys - Arys is totally mud, not fire. She's the fire in that pairing as well.

Gendry and Arya is a tough one, for sure.

Lysa and LF as well.

Brienne attracted to Jaime is partially her maturing and Jaime is not really 'mud' just less 'fire.'

Loras is attractive and flashy. And winning at jousting. Sansa is drawn to the Hound later, after she has matured a bit.

Arienne is using Arys as a pawn in her scheme. It is not about her 'falling' for him.

All this being said, it could setting we readers up for the curveball of Ashara not having had picked 'fire.'

Also, the fact of Ned having killed Ashara's brother makes for good tragedy.

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As a point, I think narratively it would be far more interesting if Ned + Ashara was the case, with Jon as their child. If only because Jon being the new sword of the morning is far more interesting and story relevant than being the heir to the Iron Throne.

I find it interesting Ashara threw herself to her death. She was a 'Falling Star'.

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This is interestng, never heard this one. but what's the narrative significance? And what exactly happened with the stark in the situation? Did howland and ashra have an affair and then she turned to Ned for comfort?

Is Ashara with howland now? Maybe she's meera and jojens mom?

Here

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Well there are a lot of reasons why people would think Brandon and Ashara rather than Ned and Ashara.

1st Barristan uses the term dishonored, which could mean sex or could mean rape. Even if it means sex, your still saying that someone we otherwise know to be a virgin had the balls to bang the woman who was possible the sexiest at the tourney when he didn't even have the balls to talk to her, which seems a serious stretch to me. If it means rape, then we all know it wasn't Ned, and have been told by Lady Dustin "Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted"

2nd, we know things that Barristan does not know, for instance R+L=J, and that the story about what happened to Ashara may be very different from what actually happened. We are told she had a stillborn child, which if it was Neds baby from Harrenhall would have been born more than 3 months before Ned brought Dawn to Starfell, we are told she then jumped from a tower, but we do not know either of these things to be true.

Last, if Ned had sex with Ashara at Harrenhall, how would anyone have found out? Are you claiming Ned would have gone around bragging about it? I personally think that completely flies in the face of everything we know about Ned, but that if Brandon banged her he'd have been boasting about it the next day.

1) Ned manages to seduce Ashara. They go to a more private place, start making out, Ashara takes the lead. Done, they are having sex

2) That is, if the Harrenhall tournament was the last time they saw each other, which we don't know.

3) Servants, getting discovered by people nearby, Ashara telling her friends, etc. That's all it takes for the gossip mill to start.

There is also the mud vs. fire analogy.

"Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father’s son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl’s heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever.

You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time." - ADwD p. 785

Ned is mud, notice now similar the description of Quentyn is to Ned.

Brandon is fire.

Let's see what Barristan (and not the readers) knows about Ned

Never met him before Harrenhall

Bangs the hottest chick in the tournament (assuming "Stark" is Ned)

The Mad King asks for his head, Jon Arryn refuses and the Vale erupts in war as Lords declare for either Jon or Aerys. Amidst this chaos, Ned vanishes from the Vale and reappears safe and sound in White Harbor

He descends from the Neck at the head of over ten thousand Northerner barbarians, including swamp dwellers, clansmen from the Mountains and maybe cannibals from Skagos

Marries Hoster Tully very hot eldest daughter

Jon C has Robert trapped at Stone Mills, Ned breaks into town with his Northern barbarians at his heels, smashes the Targaryen host and turns the Rebellion from a minor affair to the greatest danger to Targaryen hegemony ever

Marches along with Robert to the Trident where they smash the last loyalist forces. Robert and Barristan get injured at the battle. The Ned emerges from it with barely a scratch and leads the rebel van towards King's Landing.

Angrily confronts Robert due the death of Aegon and Rhaenerys

Scares Mace Tyrell into submission (ok, the war was almost done by then)

Has a show off with three of the greatest swordsmen in the realm, whom Barristan knows personally and against whom he trained daily. Ned survives after all the three die and personally slays Ser Arthur Dayne, the most renowned knight in Westeros

(Some fifteen years go by)

While on the streets, LF makes a comment about Ned's wife and Ned almost kills him in the spot. Rumors of this may or may not have reached Barristan, as the circumstances are a secret

Robert orders the death of Daenerys, Ned angrily stands up to him - which is something none probably ever done - and resigns before dishonoring himself (unlike Barristan, who washes his hands of the matter)

How is Ned "mud"?

"She regretted her rebuke. There was rain enough falling from the sky without her making more. And was it really such a terrible thing, to want a pretty wife? She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion." - ASoS p. 624

You can call BS all you want, but it is right there in the books. More than once.

ETA: It is not an argument, it is quotes.

Which would make sense if Cat is thinking "Sex at last!" and Ned is thinking "I'll never be with Ashara again" and is being torn apart from the inside

Cat's subjective opinion of hotness in a guy has little to do with Ashara's choices in sexual partners. However, I do think with what we know of both Ned and Brandon's personality, the idea that Ned would have sex out of wedlock with Ashara at the tourney is highly unlikely.

Why? First, Ashara could have very well have him very horny. Second, Ned has no attachments at this point. Third, Ashara might insist. Fourth, alcohol.

I like the Howland Reed and Ashara theory best. It makes more sense with most of the facts, and especially Edric Dayne.

If a man dishonored your sister, killed your brother, and caused your sister to kill herself why would you call your son by his nickname? It seems too weird to me.

Also Barristan is clearly not an unbiased observer. It's possible everything he's remembering are just rumors and assumptions he made.

There is something very odd about the relationship between the Daynes, Ned and Arthur Dayne. Just the fact of killing Arthur should preclude Edric's father from naming him after Ned, or cover up Jon. Imagine Alys Karstark naming her firstborn son "Jaime" in honor to the Kingslayer.

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Absolutely agree with the OP. I've always believed that it's Ned Stark, not Brandon.



A few additional points:



1. Regarding "dishonoring" - Ashara is, after all, a Dornishwoman. I don't think she'd view having an affair as dishonoring herself, especially if it was an affair with an eligible bachelor and herself likewise not engaged. At the time, Ned's not engaged and neither is she - if the worst happens and the moon tea doesn't work, they can just get married.



I also think this explains Ned's behavior - he's not married at this point, he's free to follow his heart. The problem doesn't arise until his brother is killed and he has to get married to Catelyn.



2. Regarding Barristan - Ser Barristan is somewhat of a romantic in the courtly love/chaste from afar sense. He's spent 39 years of his life a celibate, wasn't ever married. And let's not forget, Ser Barristan was busy at Harrenhal: guarding Aerys, fighting through the whole of the tourney until the final match, etc. He wouldn't have been outside Ashara's tent to see which Stark it was.



But let's say a rumor started that Ashara slept with a Stark - maybe a garment with a Stark sigil was left behind or something. Who's Barristan more likely to believe did this, a quiet and unassuming young man, or someone with a reputation for sleeping with highborn ladies?



I think Ser Barristan simply lept to the same conclusion that so many ASOIAF fans did.



3. It also explains why the Daynes don't bear a grudge against Ned. If they knew he and Ashara were lovers and wanted to get married, they're unlikely to hate him for sleeping with Ashara (remember, Dornish). And if the death of Ashara and her child is seen as a mutual loss, rather than simply inflicted on them by a stranger, it explains why they let him stay in Starfall and why they respect him so much to name their heir after him.



Remember, the Daynes take honor very seriously - and here's a Northman who shares their values.



3. I also think it works better narratively.



Consider the Ned scenario. YoungNed goes to Harrenhal, falls in love, sleeps with his first love, maybe believes he's going to get married and have a kid with her. Then his hothead of a brother gets himself and his brother killed, and his sister is kidnapped.



Ned then has to fight a civil war to save his life, and save his sister. But in order to this, he's put into a classic dilemma of a heart at war with itself: if he doesn't marry Catelyn, the rebellion will fall apart and he'll die and his sister will be lost forever; if he marries Catelyn, he gives up on the woman he loves.



He makes the hard call and marries Cat, fights and wins the war. But then he goes all the way south and has to fight to the death the brother of the woman he loves to get his sister back, only to find out that his sister is dying, and quite likely wasn't ever kidnapped. She dies, leaving him with a promise that will tarnish his honor and strain his marriage forever. And then he takes on the burden of returning Dawn to Starfall, to tell Ashara that he killed her brother.



And he finds out that the woman he loved and abandoned lost their child, a child he never knew existed. Then she kills herself.



No wonder Ned's so bloody grim and dour. His entire life was destroyed in his early 20s.



Consider the Brandon scenario: Brandon acts like an emotionally abusive asshole to Ned by encouraging his attraction to Ashara Dayne, sleeping with her anyway, and then leaving Ned to clean up the mess. But everything that happens at Starfall happens at a remove, because it's not Ned's doing, but his brother's.


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Catelyn is not Ashara. Despite what you might think a lot of women prefer quieter plainer more serious men and are turned off by firey types like Brandon (his rages? Ew). That is my problem wih the mud vs fire analogy. It outright states that all young girls want the same thing. That's the BS.

The key here is "young", not "girls". Young inexperienced people choose their love/sex partners very very wrong. Not all of them, but mostly do. When you are a young girl with hormones that have just discovered they exist, it's more likely to fall for the fire guy than the nice quiet smart kid. The same happens with boys too. Not all are the same, but I would say a LOT of them fits this.

Nevertheless, I would even dare you to ask this same board and many ladies who are already in their 30s would tell you something like "oh, I wish I had been wiser" about their sex lives.

ETA: Barristan... does he says anything more about Ashara despite her being pretty? Well, that.

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The key here is "young", not "girls". Young inexperienced people choose their love/sex partners very very wrong. Not all of them, but mostly do. When you are a young girl with hormones that have just discovered they exist, it's more likely to fall for the fire guy than the nice quiet smart kid. The same happens with boys too. Not all are the same, but I would say a LOT of them fits this.

I don't know, it's not my own experience so I find this hard to buy I suppose. I'm like Brienne in that I basically had crushes on every boy who was kind to me. I definitely didn't prefer popular jerks.

I tend to think people are attracted to partners with compatible personalities. Sometimes this leads to girls picking "fire" but if the girl herself is fire, she is IMO more likely to pick Ice (or mud, whatever). But not always.

Brash, dominant personalities are often in my experience attracted to More steady calm ones. Hence Jon-Ygritte, Arya - Gendry, Ned - Ashara,

So, I guess in some cases, opposites attract can be true. But There are too many cliches for them all to be true about everyone.

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