What would a Sansa/Arya redemption arc look like?

[MelisandreTargaryen]

I don't see redemption or reconciliation for either of them. Not in a happy sense. I don't think Arya will survive to have any big team up with Sansa. I also think Sansa will become so emotionally distant from her past and calculating that she'll view Arya as a risk.

[juanml82]

I don't see redemption or reconciliation for either of them. Not in a happy sense. I don't think Arya will survive to have any big team up with Sansa. I also think Sansa will become so emotionally distant from her past and calculating that she'll view Arya as a risk.

A risk? Arya is a walking lies detector machine and a highly capable cold blooded killer. Want to know if any of the Lords are lying to her? Just keep Arya next to her disguised as a servant or something. Want to get rid of a dangerous political opponent without getting involved? Arya can do that.

The problem is, would Arya help Sansa in such a way?

[mee aar dun wee wee]

If arya is a serial killer I think most of the characters in the book are

[Maid So Fair]

Redemption arc? I don't think they really need one at all. They had some disagreements, minor and major, but that's perfectly normal between siblings of different temperaments. They show they care for each other even before they get separated and the consequent events have all but rendered the source of their disagreement irrelevant. Do you honestly see Sansa caring that her sister is a bit rough on the edges if she gets to be with her family again? They miss each other constantly, and I have no doubt both would be extremely relieved and overjoyed to see each other again.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

I personally don't believe Arya is a psychopath. I do think she is profoundly damaged in a way that will deepen over time, but I definitely do think she experiences normal empathy and understanding. What is worrisome about her relationship with Sansa at this point is that whenever she does think of her, as in the examples you outlined, it always comes across as begrudging and only after all her other family members, and then the subject changes. Working with the Faceless Men (even with her lapses out of being "No One") doesn't seem conducive to evolving a greater, more appropriate sense of empathy for her sister. And I'm not saying I think Arya will try to kill Sansa, but she could re-open the old scars from the Trident incident, Ned's death and the forced marriage to Tyrion in a very hurtful way because that's what she's still stuck on.

The idea of Arya being sent to kill Jon Snow is also a thing (guhh), but I believe it's coming from a different place than the folks who want to see her kill Sansa.

So, now you seem to think that just because Arya loved Sansa less than she loved Jon and her parents and brothers, she doesn't love her? You're clutching at straws because Sansa does the same, so it's unfair that you're signalling Arya out for doing the same. AND IT'S PERFECTLY OK. Oh, and Arya remembers her in the chapter in which she changes her face when she thinks that she once knew a girl who loved lemoncakes.

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister.

If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wives who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

Sansa also thinks of Arya as "even Arya" in many cases. As children, they fought often but they were normal sibling squabbles. They both seemed to have moved pass it, even Arya. Arya has shown she is willing to compromise with Sansa (the "I will kiss her and beg her pardon like a lady" because she knows Sansa would like it) if she ever met her sister again. So, I really don't get where you're getting the idea that Arya will be cruel to her sister from.

[Mycah Bluth]

So, now you seem to think that just because Arya loved Sansa less than she loved Jon and her parents and brothers, she doesn't love her? You're clutching at straws because Sansa does the same, so it's unfair that you're signalling Arya out for doing the same. AND IT'S PERFECTLY OK. Oh, and Arya remembers her in the chapter in which she changes her face when she thinks that she once knew a girl who loved lemoncakes.

Sansa also thinks of Arya as "even Arya" in many cases. As children, they fought often but they were normal sibling squabbles. They both seemed to have moved pass it, even Arya. Arya has shown she is willing to compromise with Sansa (the "I will kiss her and beg her pardon like a lady" because she knows Sansa would like it) if she ever met her sister again. So, I really don't get where you're getting the idea that Arya will be cruel to her sister from.

You're absolutely right that Sansa also thinks of Arya with the same begrudging sentiment early on in her captivity. And I certainly don't doubt that she loves Sansa unconditionally underneath it all. What is unique about Arya's love for Sansa, I've been trying to articulate with dubious results, is that it's been forced to tag along with the deeply-traumatized Arya. Sansa is also on the road to becoming more ruthless, calculating and adroit, but she's not the one who's been shanking people all throughout the Riverlands and Braavos to save her skin. Arya remembers, as you rightly pointed out, that she once knew a girl who loved lemon cakes. For all she knows, Sansa is still the same naive airhead because that's where their relationship left off (she's demonstrably not). Reconciling that kind of change in Sansa, as for Sansa reconciling what Arya's had to become, is going to add all kinds of layers, painful, brutal and unprecedented, to them re-discovering the unconditional love they have for each other.

[lady jellybean]

why do sansa and arya have to meet up again, and even if they do why would arya have to forgive sansa for going to the queen and betraying her family. (she is not the only reason ned died and arya is forced to go on the run, but she bears some responseability. No matter how you look at it sansa betrayed her family for her own selfish desires) why cant they just never meet up again. I would love to see jon and bran meet up with arya and rickon though. I think the former two can help the latter two alot with their emotional issues. I just cant see sansa being able to help. Arya has seen people tortured to death, rickon was made to run for his life and maybe hang out with cannibals. Sansa was hit a little, embarassed a little and didnt get to marry her "dream guy". She offers them nothing in the way of being able to help arya or rickon. Were jon bran and even sam could do alot for them. I hope that in the time for wolves jon/ghost, bran/summer, arya/nymeria and rickon/shaggydog all get together and help each other heal.

[DarkSister1001]

In the beginning they're irritated by each other's demeanor. Sansa being a proper lady and Arya a wild child. These are flaws they see in each other. IMO this difference stems from their ages and maturity levels, sibling shit. They have not seen each other since their father was murdered and where we are in the series now they've both expressed positive and forgiving feelings for the other. So I think it's very likely that IF their paths cross (and I hope they do) they will accept and respect each other for what they are capable of and what they've been through. They've both armed themselves with their natural talents and skills, what they considered flaws in each other. They now have a lot to bond over and a lot more in common than they ever realized. I think they're both intelligent enough to realize that. "...when the cold wind blows the lone wolf dies but the pack survives..."

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I doubt they will meet. But if they do, Sansa won't recognize Arya. I think that each of them will have her own redemption.

1)Sansa

There are some foreshading in the World of Ice and Fire. For example Visenya went to the Vale to make them surrender. The king Arryan was a little boy, who wanted to fly and it happened on Vhagar's back. Also there was his mother. Later his brother (or who) captured him coz wanted power, so lord Royce wanted to free him, but the boy got killed.

Now Littlefinger went to the Vale and they became "allies" of the Crown. The lord is a little boy, and there's his mother (who already died), and Robert talks a lot about flying (throught the Moon Door). So I can imagine that he will be captured by for example Lyn Corbray who wants to take over the Vale. Lord Royce tries help Robert, but Lyn makes him fly. Thus the history repeats itself.

Then Alayne tell she's Sansa, not-literally backstabs Littlefinger and take over command in the Vale with Harry Hardyng and marches to Riverrun and the Twins to destroy the Freys. And with help from the Brotherhood without Banners and the Blackfish they will kill every Frey.

2)Arya

Becomes a Faceless (wo)Man and goes back to Westeros to kill a Targaryen(-like) somebody, coz for example maybe at time of Aegon the Conqueror a boy made 3 weirwood arrows, then Brandon Snow wanted to kill dragons, Bloodraven not-literally killed 3 dragons (Daemon and 2 of his sons), there are weirwood in the House of Black and White and at least 3 Targaryens will be in Westeros (Dany, Tyrion, "Aegon", Jon, Brown Ben Plumm has Targaryen blood too) so Arya will be hired to kill one of them, I bet for "Aegon". She completes the mission, but then her wolf blood takes over her and stays in Westeros to clear her list. Then she will be happy but returns to the House of Black and White in shame.

[Rorey Targaryen]

Sansa- The Politician: after learning from Little Finger and becoming Aegon's Queen.

Arya- The Spy: protecting her sister from the shadows as a silent guardian.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

You're absolutely right that Sansa also thinks of Arya with the same begrudging sentiment early on in her captivity. And I certainly don't doubt that she loves Sansa unconditionally underneath it all. What is unique about Arya's love for Sansa, I've been trying to articulate with dubious results, is that it's been forced to tag along with the deeply-traumatized Arya. Sansa is also on the road to becoming more ruthless, calculating and adroit, but she's not the one who's been shanking people all throughout the Riverlands and Braavos to save her skin. Arya remembers, as you rightly pointed out, that she once knew a girl who loved lemon cakes. For all she knows, Sansa is still the same naive airhead because that's where their relationship left off (she's demonstrably not). Reconciling that kind of change in Sansa, as for Sansa reconciling what Arya's had to become, is going to add all kinds of layers, painful, brutal and unprecedented, to them re-discovering the unconditional love they have for each other.

Arya is not the same person she was in AGOT. She's far more cynical, more colder and far more angry and Sansa will have to reconcile herself to it. But at the same time, their arcs have more similarities now than they had in AGOT and I can see them bonding over similar experiences. I'm just saying that Arya is not the type of person who would ever hurt her family, no matter how traumatic her experiences get. Time and time again, we see her risk her life and freedom for her "pack" and Sansa means much more to Arya than they did.

Sansa- The Politician: after learning from Little Finger and becoming Aegon's Queen.

Arya- The Spy: protecting her sister from the shadows as a silent guardian.

Ok, I'd love for them to meet again, but why should Arya, a character who has had the third most chapters in the whole series, become nothing more than a personal bodyguard for her sister? Arya has her own story right now and she's going to make a large impact on the future of Westeros and the North. She could never do that by being her sister's henchman.

[chrisdaw]

It'd look like this. They meet in KL and Sansa provides Arya direction and Arya provides Sansa support. Together they bring down Aegon from within and then Dany by stirring the people against her and into action. They conspire to win Sansa's trial by seven and make her queen. Then when Jon marches South they conspire to have much of the Riverlands and Vale turn against the IT and fight for Jon.

They'll also get Edmure reinstated as Sansa will send Arya to clean out the outlaws in RR, which Arya will eventually do after they've cleaned out the notable Freys and Arya determines what is left of her mother is in need of the gift of mercy. Sansa will later lean on Jaime to reinstate Edmure, which Jaime will be fairly inclined to do as per the Arthur Dayne playbook, outlaws are caused by the people having no love for their lords, as such Edmure is the best bet for stability in a post chaos RR.

[Hos the Hostage]

^^ You have not been paying attention.

[chrisdaw]

By the leader of a crew of religious assassins? That does't carry a lot of weight. Maybe the Kindly Man meant that nobody had paid for Dareon's killing so it shouldn't have been done.

I doubt it is the intent of the author to have the KM's credibility become the issue of his question. There's a point to it. It's not a coincidence we see Arya murder a NW deserter and Eddard judge and execute one. The KM asked who is Arya is to judge, while Eddard gave a full account of who he was to judge and by what rights he carried out the sentence.

^^ You have not been paying attention.

Well then what do you think was GRRM's intent when he wrote this?

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa... Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you... and I need both of you, gods help me."

He sounded so tired that it made Arya sad. "I don't hate Sansa," she told him. "Not truly." It was only half a lie.

"I do not mean to frighten you, but neither will i I lie to you. We have come to a dark and dangerous place, child. This is not Winterfell. We have enemies who mean us ill. We cannot fight a war among ourselves. This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience... at home these were only summer games of a child. Here and now, with winter soon upon us, that is a different matter. It is time to begin growing up."

Why is he labouring the point of Arya being directionless and forlorn without her pack? Why she enjoys so much being Nymeria with her pack in her dreams?

For what reason does he have Arya collecting and reporting information back to base? Learning mummery? Why is Sansa so associated with songs and singers? Why does he have her learn from LF how to use them to play the game?

[Hos the Hostage]

I did not mean they will never work together or help each other. Just that you sound too optimistic. Some parts of what you said may happen, but everything working out so neatly for the Starks..thats a happy ending for me. Hence unlikely to happen.

[chrisdaw]

Consider the pessimism may have been very deliberately manufactured, and if so why it has.

[Pod The Impaler]

A risk? Arya is a walking lies detector machine and a highly capable cold blooded killer. Want to know if any of the Lords are lying to her? Just keep Arya next to her disguised as a servant or something. Want to get rid of a dangerous political opponent without getting involved? Arya can do that.

The problem is, would Arya help Sansa in such a way?

Sansa- The Politician: after learning from Little Finger and becoming Aegon's Queen.

Arya- The Spy: protecting her sister from the shadows as a silent guardian.

Arya is not the same person she was in AGOT. She's far more cynical, more colder and far more angry and Sansa will have to reconcile herself to it. But at the same time, their arcs have more similarities now than they had in AGOT and I can see them bonding over similar experiences. I'm just saying that Arya is not the type of person who would ever hurt her family, no matter how traumatic her experiences get. Time and time again, we see her risk her life and freedom for her "pack" and Sansa means much more to Arya than they did.

Ok, I'd love for them to meet again, but why should Arya, a character who has had the third most chapters in the whole series, become nothing more than a personal bodyguard for her sister? Arya has her own story right now and she's going to make a large impact on the future of Westeros and the North. She could never do that by being her sister's henchman.

I agree with the third comment, and to some degree disagree with the first two.

The old power dynamic is gone. Back in AGOT, there was something of a contest for dominance between them - Sansa the elder, expecting a sort of alpha female role, and Arya clearly contesting this at every turn. Well, that was as children, and too much of that came about for girlish reasons. However, the memory of it has permanently shaped them both, the effects of their childhood "issues" carring over into adulthood - we see it with other characters as well: Catelyn and Lysa, Robert and Stannis, etc.

So when I say the old power dynamic, I mean this:

Arya and Sansa are family, and probably want to get along better, and if Arya and Sansa meet again, they will both be pretty much grown-up, but ...

... a lot of it remains a sort of unfinished argument between them, and not helped by the fact that the main peacemaker between them (their father) was murdered.

Arya was always someone with an iron will and fierce rage, but now frankly, that has grown exponentially. I simply cannot see a situation where Arya shows deference or acts as second fiddle to Sansa - there is one clear alpha female here, and it is not Sansa.

If they collaborate, Arya might find it in her interest to let Sansa be the public face of whatever they're up to, but I imagine that Arya would be the one to give the orders and Sansa to follow them. Sansa would be no more able to pull rank on Arya now than Roslin Frey dominate Asha Greyjoy. If Sansa is perceptive enough to recognize that, and adjust, then perhaps they can be allies. If not and she pulls the "big sister" card, it will not end well.

[Grail King]

<snip>

Arya was always someone with an iron will and fierce rage, but now frankly, that has grown exponentially. I simply cannot see a situation where Arya shows deference or acts as second fiddle to Sansa - there is one clear alpha female here, and it is not Sansa.

If they collaborate, Arya might find it in her interest to let Sansa be the public face of whatever they're up to, but I imagine that Arya would be the one to give the orders and Sansa to follow them. Sansa would be no more able to pull rank on Arya now than Roslin Frey dominate Asha Greyjoy. If Sansa is perceptive enough to recognize that, and adjust, then perhaps they can be allies. If not and she pulls the "big sister" card, it will not end well.

Arya won't play second fiddle and neither will Sansa, nor will Sansa pull big sister, for the Starks to come back they have to be a team and team here is what they both bring to the table:

Sansa knows the actual players in the game, how they think and how they plan moves so in this sense Sansa gives the directions to bring about the targets for Arya.

Arya brings stealth, and knowledge on how do deal out death and keeping hands clean, she will control the when and how it's to be done, one moves the pieces on the board, and one removes the pieces from the board.

Two halves of the same play, setup and finale.

[juanml82]

Arya won't play second fiddle and neither will Sansa, nor will Sansa pull big sister, for the Starks to come back they have to be a team and team here is what they both bring to the table:

Sansa knows the actual players in the game, how they think and how they plan moves so in this sense Sansa gives the directions to bring about the targets for Arya.

Arya brings stealth, and knowledge on how do deal out death and keeping hands clean, she will control the when and how it's to be done, one moves the pieces on the board, and one removes the pieces from the board.

Two halves of the same play, setup and finale.

Arya has no strategic insight. The issue is how would that relationship develop. Because Sansa saying "Yes!!! A Free FM for me! Arya, here have your new list" isn't going to work

[lady jellybean]

I can actually see them on opposite sides. Arya with dani and sansa with fake ageon.

Really dani could be an older sister like figure for arya, one that she respects and who respects her. It could be like an umber situation. They are fighting on opposite sides but will not fight each other.

And as a side note I always took neds speach to arya about lone wolves as another one of his mistakes. He told it to the wrong daughter. That part about god help him he needed them both. Sansa was the daughter that let him down and betrayed the family. Sansa is the lone wolf. Arya still has nymeria and even bran watching her. Sansa has LF, and well lysa found out how well that worked didnt she.