[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ah, ok :)

I agree, it isn't possible to get the timeline of the 272 AC tourney/Tyrion's birth in 273 AC in detail, and we probably never will be able to get it.

Is it silly to explain why Tywin treated Tyrion the way he did all his life? Is it silly to explain that there was more to it than Tyrion simply being a dwarf? To explain that Tywin actually had reason to suspect, even if it isn't true?

Explaining the motivations of characters isn't silly, in my opinion.

Oh, I think we will eventually get confirmation of the timeline--just only when GRRM is ready for the big reveal. He cannot make it too obvious until then--so the timeline needs to remain unclear up to that point.

As to explaining why Tywin treated Tyrion that way--it is odd to back-fill this information only after Tywin is dead. Yes, WoIaF came out when it did, so maybe that could not be helped, but it seems a little unnecessary, in a side book, to give hints (and only hints--not direct statement) that Tywin incorrectly thought Tyrion was Aerys's child, but it turns out Tyrion really was Tywin's son all along. If Tywin were still alive, that development could serve a purpose down the road in the series, but with Tywin dead, the clues are just too subtle to serve that purpose and what would be the point for a dead character? I am not saying this explanation is impossible--just that it makes the information must less important to the series than if AJT is true--that theory could have massive implications for the series.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Oh, I think we will eventually get confirmation of the timeline--just only when GRRM is ready for the big reveal. He cannot make it too obvious until then--so the timeline needs to remain unclear up to that point.

As to explaining why Tywin treated Tyrion that way--it is odd to back-fill this information only after Tywin is dead. Yes, WoIaF came out when it did, so maybe that could not be helped, but it seems a little unnecessary, in a side book, to give hints (and only hints--not direct statement) that Tywin incorrectly thought Tyrion was Aerys's child, but it turns out Tyrion really was Tywin's son all along. If Tywin were still alive, that development could serve a purpose down the road in the series, but with Tywin dead, the clues are just too subtle to serve that purpose and what would be the point for a dead character? I am not saying this explanation is impossible--just that it makes the information must less important to the series than if AJT is true--that theory could have massive implications for the series.

Hmm, I had figured that, if it is indeed the case that Tyrion is truly Tywin's, this backstory on Tywin and his suspicions will eventually reflext on Tyrions arc in Winds (the World Book was supposed to come out a year ago, so I think it was always the idea that the World Book was released after Dance.. Though I don't know if 2013 was always the first date they had thought about..)

Tyrion isn't in a good place in the current story. I figured that the Tywin/Joanna/Aerys backstory could function as first putting Tyrion in a darker place, then having him learn about all of this, and understanding (though not forgiving) why Tywin did what he did, so Tyrion might be able to find a little bit of peace..

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Is it silly to explain why Tywin treated Tyrion the way he did all his life? Is it silly to explain that there was more to it than Tyrion simply being a dwarf? To explain that Tywin actually had reason to suspect, even if it isn't true?

Explaining the motivations of characters isn't silly, in my opinion.

That all would be reasonable, but in context with the foreshadowing that Tyrion will ride a dragon, the information on Joanna seems like it is deliberately trying to hint at Tyrion being a bastard. If Tyrion was not going to ride a dragon, I would take all the Joanna stuff as, like you said, info on why Tywin treated him like he did. But if Tyrion is now somehow not the king's bastard, I'll be like "George, why did you make me think he was with all the hints?" It would feel like it was an intentional red herring if that turns out to be the case as opposed to just being back story development, and I think a meaningless red herring would be silly and very not like George to do.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Hmm, I had figured that, if it is indeed the case that Tyrion is truly Tywin's, this backstory on Tywin and his suspicions will eventually reflext on Tyrions arc in Winds (the World Book was supposed to come out a year ago, so I think it was always the idea that the World Book was released after Dance.. Though I don't know if 2013 was always the first date they had thought about..)

Tyrion isn't in a good place in the current story. I figured that the Tywin/Joanna/Aerys backstory could function as first putting Tyrion in a darker place, then having him learn about all of this, and understanding (though not forgiving) why Tywin did what he did, so Tyrion might be able to find a little bit of peace..

I think it is possible Tyrion could deduce he is a Targ just by merit of becoming a dragon rider, and then maybe he would have some peace as you say.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That all would be reasonable, but in context with the foreshadowing that Tyrion will ride a dragon, the information on Joanna seems like it is deliberately trying to hint at Tyrion being a bastard. If Tyrion was not going to ride a dragon, I would take all the Joanna stuff as, like you said, info on why Tywin treated him like he did. But if Tyrion is now somehow not the king's bastard, I'll be like "George, why did you make me think he was with all the hints?" It would feel like it was an intentional red herring if that turns out to be the case as opposed to just being back story development, and I think a meaningless red herring would be silly and very not like George to do.

What is this foreshadowing we are talking about?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Hmm, I had figured that, if it is indeed the case that Tyrion is truly Tywin's, this backstory on Tywin and his suspicions will eventually reflext on Tyrions arc in Winds (the World Book was supposed to come out a year ago, so I think it was always the idea that the World Book was released after Dance.. Though I don't know if 2013 was always the first date they had thought about..)

Tyrion isn't in a good place in the current story. I figured that the Tywin/Joanna/Aerys backstory could function as first putting Tyrion in a darker place, then having him learn about all of this, and understanding (though not forgiving) why Tywin did what he did, so Tyrion might be able to find a little bit of peace..

If it is only backstory and Tryion is really the biological son of Tywin but Tywin was not sure, and Tyrion finds out about this information--I think it would make Tyrion even more angry. Tywin would have treated Tyrion poorly for no real reason--based on paranoia that Aerys might be the father when Tyrion really was Tywin's true born son. How infuriating would that be for Tyrion? His head might explode from the sense of injustice.

Now if it turns out Aerys really is Tyrion's biological father, then that "twist" would lead to a host of developments--not only make Tryion understand Tywin and his treatment of Tyrion better, but also the whole "head of a dragon/dragonrider" thing that seems to be coming for Tyrion.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If it is only backstory and Tryion is really the biological son of Tywin but Tywin was not sure, and Tyrion finds out about this information--I think it would make Tyrion even more angry. Tywin would have treated Tyrion poorly for no real reason--based on paranoia that Aerys might be the father when Tyrion really was Tywin's true born son. How infuriating would that be for Tyrion? His head might explode from the sense of injustice.

Now if it turns out Aerys really is Tyrion's biological father, then that "twist" would lead to a host of developments--not only make Tryion understand Tywin and his treatment of Tyrion better, but also the whole "head of a dragon/dragonrider" thing that seems to be coming for Tyrion.

But what is the difference? Tyrion won't be able to find out what Tywin believed, he will only be able to guess it.. and had Tywin known Tyrion wasn't his, Tyrion wouldn't have been still alive, that's the reasoning that, imo, will most likely be used by Tyrion.

The fact that Aerys and Joanna had an affair, and the fact that there was reason for Tywin to suspect that Tyrion was Aerys', is enough for Tyrion. Joanna isn't alive to tell the truth, Aerys isn't, Tywin isn't, Kevan, the one person Tywin might have told somehing to, isn't...

Tyrion will only be able to guess about why Tywin acted the way he did... The fact that Tyrion could believe that Tywin believed that Tyrion could have been Aerys', not his, will explain the behavior towards Tyrion, to Tyrion...

I don't think that Tyrion would even suspect that Tywin had allowed him to live if he had known Tyrion was Aerys'.

[UnmaskedLurker]

But what is the difference? Tyrion won't be able to find out what Tywin believed, he will only be able to guess it.. and had Tywin known Tyrion wasn't his, Tyrion wouldn't have been still alive, that's the reasoning that, imo, will most likely be used by Tyrion.

The fact that Aerys and Joanna had an affair, and the fact that there was reason for Tywin to suspect that Tyrion was Aerys', is enough for Tyrion. Joanna isn't alive to tell the truth, Aerys isn't, Tywin isn't, Kevan, the one person Tywin might have told somehing to, isn't...

Tyrion will only be able to guess about why Tywin acted the way he did... The fact that Tyrion could believe that Tywin believed that Tyrion could have been Aerys', not his, will explain the behavior towards Tyrion, to Tyrion...

I don't think that Tyrion would even suspect that Tywin had allowed him to live if he had known Tyrion was Aerys'.

I think your point is that Tyrion could find out Tywin suspected Tyrion could be the son of Aerys, but Tyrion would never be able to be more sure than Tywin about the real truth. I suppose that is possible. But I think the issue--if it becomes relevant to Tyrion's arc--also would be resolved somehow one way or the other. Maybe it just lingers as something Tyrion always wonders about, but I find that unlikely. So if Tryion finds out Tywin hated Tyrion for a mistaken belief--that would just anger Tyrion even more. If Tyrion finds out Tywin hated Tyrion for a suspicion that turns out to be accurate--that is a whole other kettle of fish (so to speak).

[Hangover of the Morning]

Yeah, it's possible but I certainly hope it's not true. IMO, it'd do a massive disservice to Tyrion's character and the overall story (too many secret Targs).

Am I the only one who find it weird that master Yandell would accuse Joanna of infidelity ("Joanna Lannister wouldn't be the first woman to be dismissed abruptly from court") in his book when Lord Tywin is very much alive and very much in power at that time?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah, it's possible but I certainly hope it's not true. IMO, it'd do a massive disservice to Tyrion's character and the overall story (too many secret Targs).

Am I the only one who find it weird that master Yandell would accuse Joanna of infidelity ("Joanna Lannister wouldn't be the first woman to be dismissed abruptly from court") in his book when Lord Tywin is very much alive and very much in power at that time?

I don't know what you mean by "weird" given that it happened. I think that it was fairly well known for "insiders" in RK at that time that Joanna was believed to have been one of Aerys's lovers. I think Tywin knew.

As to your statement about "secret Targs" -- Tyrion would be a dragonseed and Targ bastard, but he would not be a Targ, he would be a Hill (a bastard raised in westerlands). If you think the three heads of the dragon will have Targ blood, then there needs to be a third person with Targ blood somewhere that could plausibly be the third head (with Jon and Dany). Tyrion is by far the most likely candidate given the similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion.

As to your statement about Tyrion's character--how is it altered by the knowledge of his true father? Is Jon's character altered if Rhaegar rather than Ned is Jon's true biol-dad? Tyrion is who he is largely because Tywin raised Tyrion a certain way--that won't change no matter the biology. The point of ATJ would be for Tyrion to understand why his father treated Tyrion the way his father did, and more to the point, to give Tyrion a Targ father so that Tyrion can be a head of the dragon (and likely bond with a dragon).

[Hangover of the Morning]

I don't know what you mean by "weird" given that it happened. I think that it was fairly well known for "insiders" in RK at that time that Joanna was believed to have been one of Aerys's lovers. I think Tywin knew.

Even if everybody knows it, I really don't think they are stupid enough to tell Tywin to his face or to write it into a book and give it to his grandson. Tywin is not known for his mercy or for being cool abut the Lannister name being shamed publicly.

As to your statement about "secret Targs" -- Tyrion would be a dragonseed and Targ bastard, but he would not be a Targ, he would be a Hill (a bastard raised in westerlands). If you think the three heads of the dragon will have Targ blood, then there needs to be a third person with Targ blood somewhere that could plausibly be the third head (with Jon and Dany). Tyrion is by far the most likely candidate given the similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion.

As to your statement about Tyrion's character--how is it altered by the knowledge of his true father? Is Jon's character altered if Rhaegar rather than Ned is Jon's true biol-dad? Tyrion is who he is largely because Tywin raised Tyrion a certain way--that won't change no matter the biology. The point of ATJ would be for Tyrion to understand why his father treated Tyrion the way his father did, and more to the point, to give Tyrion a Targ father so that Tyrion can be a head of the dragon (and likely bond with a dragon).

Yeah, I don't believe that the Targ blood is any special (that idea kinda offends me). I also don't believe in the prophecies (at least not literally) so that aspect simply doesn't appeal to me. Tyrion will likely ride a dragon and almost certainly be an important player in the events to come. I like to thing he'll achieve that by his own merit and abilities and not because he has some uber ancient blood flowing in his veins.

You are right that it wouldn't change Tyrion's character but it would destroy his dynamic with his father. Especially the irony of Tyrion being so much like Tywin but Tywin refusing to see it. It would also make Tywin's treatment of Tyrion somewhat justifiable. Tywin was right all along. He sired the two beautiful, perfect specimen; while the ugly monster was the Mad King's and possibly born out of rape.

Just my personal preference. I enjoy twists and mysteries but only if they are relatively rare. If almost everybody is secretly somebody else, it becomes a bit tedious.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Even if everybody knows it, I really don't think they are stupid enough to tell Tywin to his face or to write it into a book and give it to his grandson. Tywin is not known for his mercy or for being cool abut the Lannister name being shamed publicly.

Yeah, I don't believe that the Targ blood is any special (that idea kinda offends me). I also don't believe in the prophecies (at least not literally) so that aspect simply doesn't appeal to me. Tyrion will likely ride a dragon and almost certainly be an important player in the events to come. I like to thing he'll achieve that by his own merit and abilities and not because he has some uber ancient blood flowing in his veins.

You are right that it wouldn't change Tyrion's character but it would destroy his dynamic with his father. Especially the irony of Tyrion being so much like Tywin but Tywin refusing to see it. It would also make Tywin's treatment of Tyrion somewhat justifiable. Tywin was right all along. He sired the two beautiful, perfect specimen; while the ugly monster was the Mad King's and possibly born out of rape.

Just my personal preference. I enjoy twists and mysteries but only if they are relatively rare. If almost everybody is secretly somebody else, it becomes a bit tedious.

I am still confused. You suggest it is unreasonable that the maester would have included the information about the affair--but he did include it so he must not have thought it was unreasonable. What are you suggesting? Why do you think he included this information if including it would be considered so dangerous for him?

As to the Targ blood issue--I think the evidence is overwhelming. I find it interesting that no one seems to doubt that First Man blood is necessary to warg (or skinchange) but somehow people don't believe that Targ blood is needed to bond with a dragon--despite all the information suggesting that it is. Everyone known to have bonded with a dragon after the Doom has Targ blood (WoIaF identified Nettles as a dragonseed, i.e., Targ bastard). There were other Valaryians that were not dragonlords before the doom--so if certain bloodlines were not needed, why didn't all Valaryians ride dragons? The Doom suggests that some powerful blood magic was done that disrupted the area (a price for powerful blood magic)--what could that have been other than binding the dragons to certain bloodlines? GRRM has said that the Targs practiced incest to keep the bloodlines more pure to better control dragons--why say this statement if bloodlines are irrelevant to controlling dragons? Follow the clues--they will lead you to the right conclusion.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I am still confused. You suggest it is unreasonable that the maester would have included the information about the affair--but he did include it so he must not have thought it was unreasonable. What are you suggesting? Why do you think he included this information if including it would be considered so dangerous for him?

I am suggesting that the maester is either stupid (unlikely since the whole passage is so blatantly biased and made to portray Tywin in a more favourable light compared to the Mad King) or incredibly bold; or that it was put there solely for us as readers since it was really write by Elio and Linda and not an actual maester :-).

I just feel that if someone at the court was singing a tale about Joanna cuckolding Tywin, that person wouldn't be singing for very long.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I am suggesting that the maester is either stupid (unlikely since the whole passage is so blatantly biased and made to portray Tywin in a more favourable light compared to the Mad King) or incredibly bold; or that it was put there solely for us as readers since it was really write by Elio and Linda and not an actual maester :-).

I just feel that if someone at the court was singing a tale about Joanna cuckolding Tywin, that person wouldn't be singing for very long.

Got it now. Just to clarify, based on Ran's postings, I am pretty sure any plot points like that would have been part of the notes that GRRM gave him and Linda--not something Elio and Linda independently decided to include. They had input on certain incidental items, but I have gotten the impression from reading his posts that anything like that would have had to have been included in GRRM's notes first.

By the way, given how "bold" or "stupid" this inclusion appears to be, it suggests GRRM really wanted the readers to have this information. Why? Well, you know my answer--to give more clues regarding A+J=T. And by the way, Ran specifically said that GRRM added fuel to the fire of the ATJ theory.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Got it now. Just to clarify, based on Ran's postings, I am pretty sure any plot points like that would have been part of the notes that GRRM gave him and Linda--not something Elio and Linda independently decided to include. They had input on certain incidental items, but I have gotten the impression from reading his posts that anything like that would have had to have been included in GRRM's notes first.

By the way, given how "bold" or "stupid" this inclusion appears to be, it suggests GRRM really wanted the readers to have this information. Why? Well, you know my answer--to give more clues regarding A+J=T. And by the way, Ran specifically said that GRRM added fuel to the fire of the ATJ theory.

It is interesting that Yandel would be so bold with Tywin alive, but I'm going to agree with this. Ran also more specifically said that he feels George debunked the J+C being Targs thing, so it was George material.

And like UnmaskedLurker said, I think the evidence that you need Targ blood (and the right drop at that) is somewhat overwhelming now.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

What is this foreshadowing we are talking about?

Dragon dreams, his knowledge of saddles, etc. Especially the WoW spoiler I put in the OP, I think that is actually the strongest foreshadowing for it.

[Ser Meryn Frey]

You really have to stress the concept of 'blind faith' a lot to believe that Joanna or Tywin have Targaryen blood through a daughter of Viserys Plumm.

Why??

I think the term "blind faith" applies more to the A+J=T theory because all those so-called proofs have several different interpretations and nothing is conclusive. In the Plumm case, the theory can simply be tested when we learn what happened to the rest of the Plumms (which might happen in TWoW).

Or a Plumm match, for that matter. Personally, I don't think that a Plumm would have been an unfit consort for Jason or even Tytos, when he was only a second/third son. Nor do we know that the Plumms didn't regain most of their position/wealth after the Unworthy. Viserys Plumm being a rumored bastard, who was royal on both sides, wouldn't have been much of an impediment, IMHO.

And that's the thing - if GRRM wanted us to contemplate alternative sources for Tyrion's Targ-like traits, he would have inserted a Plumm into his pedigree. Yes, iRL it would have been possible for either Jeyne Marbrand or Marla Prester to have a Plumm mother, if Lord Viserys had any daughters in the first place. But ASOIAF is fiction, and as such, it doesn't make any sense for GRRM to obfuscate things so much.

Tyrion had a golden opportunity to reveal his Plumm ancestry when interacting with Brown Ben - either in conversation or in his thoughts, and consider what it might mean in connection with dragons.

WOIAF was an even better chance to reveal this tidbit unobtrusively, if Plumm blood was supposed to be a plot point for Tyrion.

Instead, we got a load of stuff on Aeys - Joanna - Tywin triangle and Black Betha Blackwood with her black eyes and hair as Aerys's only grandmother.

What does this Plumm thing have to do with anything with regards to Tyrion eventually being a son of Aerys II?

To me, it seems completely irrelevant.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

What does this Plumm thing have to do with anything with regards to Tyrion eventually being a son of Aerys II?

To me, it seems completely irrelevant.

Not irrelevant. The contention is that if the right drop of Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon (almost certainly is says me) and Tyrion had Plumm blood, he could still be Tywin's son. Since he in all likelihood does not have Plumm blood, riding a dragon in TWOW will suggest that he is the son of Aerys, since there would be no other reasonable explanation at that point.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On the note of Plumm blood, I think it is likely that Brown Ben could ride one of the dragons for a bit. In fact, I see little other reason why George included the details about the Plumms actually having "2 drops" of Targ blood and not just the officially recorded 1 drop. I don't think Brown Ben is one of the 3 heads though, I assume he will die, or Dany will crazy kill him or something.

[Fingolfin225]

Ok I'm not here to argue the evidence for or against A+J=T. But I do have one question. If it IS true, who or what would be able to confirm it with hard evidence, or at least as a firsthand witness? Barristan seems to know of the rumors of A and J, but he cannot say for certain. For R+L=J, there is still at least Howland Reed (theoretically) who can confirm Jon's parentage. (I know there's Bran/Bloodraven too but I'm talking about something/someone the whole realm could potentially believe). But A+J=T? If it were true, everyone who could have confirmed is either dead or not a named character, that I can think of. Anyone have any guesses?

Also, to the people who think that Jaime and Cersei are instead Aerys' children, if it were true, I find it peculiar that they ended up in an incestuous relationship naturally, as many Targaryens have before. It's certainly not hard evidence that they are Targaryen, but it is somewhat coincidental. It's not like every pair of bro/sis out there end up in the sack together.