[TWOIAF] Six Dragons and the North

[Hardstone]

"Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall.” - ASoS Jon V

In chronological order

• Torrhen kneels to the Targaryens
• Torrhen's sons weren't happy that he gave up the crown and spoke openly about rebellion and raising the banner without their fathers consent
• Thanks to Rhaenys' matchmaking, Torrhen's daughter marries Ronnel Arryn but none of her brothers attend the wedding. She and Ronnel are ultimately killed in/after 37AC
• Some Northerners exile themselves and formed a free company in Essos called the Company of the Rose (after having been knelt)
• Aegon I stayed at Winterfell on his last royal progress in 33AC before Aenys and his family took over
• J1 and Alysanne visit Winterfell for discussion (date and topic unknown)
  • either talks of rebellion continued through the next generations and were more openly spoke about so the Targaryens visited the North as a reminder
  • "half his court" reminds me of when Aerys II invited himself to stay at the Rock for a year and court was run from there
  • a wedding? we still don't know the fates of Rhaena, Aerea, Rhalla and the unconfirmed younger sister of Rhaenys TQWNW
  • Viserys I's tale to his grandchildren of his own grandsire flying North of the Wall to do battle may have had more truth to it (which I doubt)
• Alysanne visits Queenscrown and the Wall after growing bored (was she impatient with how long things were taking?)
• She donates jewels to build Deep Lake and she is honoured when they change the name of the Snowgate to Queensgate
• When he joined her at the Wall, she asks J1 to give the NW more land which he agrees to after 'persuading' the Starks
• Lord Stark's brother wrote to the Citadel to 'provide precedents against the forced donation' of the New Gift, this was unanswered or unsuccessful
• The Starks allegedly side with the Velaryons at the Great Council of 101 because they were still bitter about the forced donation. I imagine there was a rivalry between J1 and Corlys at some point ;)

Anything I've missed? What do you all say? Why were they in the North for such a time with these numbers of people and dragons?

[The hairy bear]

Sounds complete to me.

I's clear a lot of unrest in the North during the first years of Targaryen rule, and that it lasted for a long time. The fact that they Ellard Stark was still lord at 101 and that the Targaryens already had six dragons suggests that the visit was closer to Jaehaerys' death than to the beginning of his reign.

Alysanne's actions are very weird. She leaves the negotiations because they take too long (so, they are complicated). And when he returns, she complicates them much more by forcing the Starks to donate the Gift. The official story does not make much sense, and surely there was much more to it than it is explained. My guess would be that the Starks (perhaps just a faction of the family) were caught at the verge of a rebellion nd Jahaerys put it down quietly, and then stayed some time secretly negotiating the terms of surrender.

[palemarerider]

Ned says in the first book that Direwolves have not been seen south of the wall in 200 years. Coincidentally the same time that the Queen and Silverwing are hanging out at Winterfell and the new gift. Was she hunting direwolves? I think there is a bigger connection between wolves and starks with regards to power and control. Would be interested to know if any of the rebel starks had a direwolf companion.

Wolves come back Starks become Kings again.

[RumHam]

You might mention that Aegon I stayed at Winterfell on his last progress. Also you totally omit the probably bullshit story of how "Jaehaerys the Old King had flown his dragon north to the Wall to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs." I'd love to believe that they put down a mini-King Beyond the Wall, but it's hard to explain why it would have been kept secret.

[Jaak]

Try identifying the 6 dragons!

I tried, and it constrains the time.

[RumHam]

Jaehaerys - Vermithor

Alysanne - Silverwing

Aemon - Balerion?

Baelon - Vhagar?

Rhaena - Dreamfyre

Rhaenys - Maelys

Was my guess.

[Jaak]

Jaehaerys - Vermithor

Alysanne - Silverwing

Aemon - Balerion?

Baelon - Vhagar?

Rhaena - Dreamfyre

Rhaenys - Maelys

Was my guess.

Maelys was a Blackfyre human, Meleys a dragon.

Incidentally, Targaryens habitually recycle the names of humans, even living ones (Aegon had a living grandson of the same name, etc.), but the names of dragons were never recycled by dragon nor human.

This would constrain the travel before 92 (when Aemon died). Also, then Viserys only had 2 years to ride Balerion before it died in 94.

[The hairy bear]

My guess it's the same as yours, RumHam. As far as the dragons go, this seems the likeliest possibility.

Regarding the riders, I also agree that Balerion's rider was Prince Aemon. But there's one problem with this theory: if Aemon died at 92 and Balerion died at 95, then he only rode the Black Dread three years. It seems too short a time to make an impact, and it seems weird that Viserys never tried to get another dragon.

[RumHam]

Maelys was a Blackfyre human, Meleys a dragon.

Oops. I've confused Rhaegal and Rhaegel before too.

[The hairy bear]

Regarding dragons, I've made this little graph to put things in perspective.

[Bironic]

Regarding dragons, I've made this little graph to put things in perspective.

:thumbsup: great graphic

Strange is that some of the younger dragons are considered to be to young for battle, although they are older than daenerys dragons. Perhaps danys grew faster because they weren't caged from the beginning.

Maybe the visit of Jahaerys had some thing to do with the claim of the greatjon that they "married" the dragons, a proposed betrothal or something. Not very likely, I admit, given the greatjons lack of intelligence/knowledge of history.

[Hardstone]

• • Viserys I's tale to his grandchildren of his own grandsire flying North of the Wall to do battle may have had more truth to it (which I doubt)

Also you totally omit the probably bullshit story of how "Jaehaerys the Old King had flown his dragon north to the Wall to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs." I'd love to believe that they put down a mini-King Beyond the Wall, but it's hard to explain why it would have been kept secret.

It has been there all along. Hiding in plain sight. I will edit in Aegon's progress.

Neat graphic, THB.

[RumHam]

It has been there all along. Hiding in plain sight. I will edit in Aegon's progress.

Neat graphic, THB.

Yeah I dunno how I missed that.

[Jaak]

My guess would be that Rhaena had died some time well below 90s - she was 10 years older than Jaehaerys and 12 years older than Alysanne - and that Aemon and Baelon rode Vhagar and Dreamfyre (not sure which of them rode which).

In this way, Viserys might recount Jaehaerys´ war beyond the Wall as an eyewitness and participant - it was sometime before 94, Viserys rode Balerion to Winterfell, and after the bored Alysanne had ridden to Wall on Silverwing and returned with her ideas, she persuaded, inter alia, Jaehaerys and Viserys to accompany her to fight beyond the Wall.

[Hardstone]

Vaegon Targaryen is called the Dragonless probably because his dragon died as a youth and he was sent to the Citadel not long after. Would this mean that the other adult children of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne all had dragons?

The 8: Alyssa, Aemon, Baelon, Daella, Viserra, Maegelle, Saera and Gael

- Maegelle and Saera were given to the Faith so did they lose their dragons at some point? If they lost their dragons young, then why was only Vaegon called the Dragonless? I doubt King would give a dragonrider to the Faith after all the trouble of their recent years.

- Gael is said to be simple minded but was Jaehaera any different albeit misunderstood? Jaehaera was bonded to a dragon and never rode it. Gael could be the same.

- The rest are ready and raring to go!

Theory Alert! I've just had a thought about Vaegon. It is said that he held the rod and mask of yellow gold (economics) at the Citadel when he became an Archmaester. Could "the Dragonless" be in reference to gold dragons? Was he a spendthrift or notoriously tight or was he just bad at his position but given it because he was the King's son?

[RumHam]

Vaegon Targaryen is called the Dragonless probably because his dragon died as a youth and he was sent to the Citadel not long after. Would this mean that the other adult children of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne all had dragons?

I wouldn't make that assumption. Assuming the book lists them in birth order, it could just be that Aemon and Baelon got dragons, but Vaegon did not or got one that soon died. So for a while he would have been the only dragonless child. I really doubt Maegelle and Saera had dragons.

Actually we should be able to do a pretty good census of what dragons were alive during this period no?

[Hardstone]

Child order was:

1. Aegon (died as a child)

2. Alyssa
3. Aemon
4. Baelon
5. Daella
6. Aeryn (died as a child)

7. Vaegon
8. Maegelle

9. Valerion (died as a child)

10. Viserra

11. Gaemon (died as a child)

12. Saera

13. Gael

Let us not forget that the Great Tourney of 98AC hadn't seen that many dragons in one place since the days of Old Valyria. Was this more or the same as Laenor's funeral on Driftmark in 220AC where a similar comment was made in TRP?

[RumHam]

Oh, then maybe Vaegon was just the first who did not get a dragon. Possibly because they were out of them? or are we operating under the assumption that there are dragons from this era that we don't yet know about?

[Hardstone]

"Assuming the book lists them in birth order, it could just be that Aemon and Baelon got dragons, but Vaegon did not or got one that soon died."

Don't forget Alyssa and Daella can have dragons too.

Yeah, there must be some we haven't heard about. I always thought that Aemon died fighting on his dragon and now we know he was killed in battle. But the dragon part is unconfirmed.

Aemma Arryn probably rode Dreamfyre.

[Jaak]

Oh, then maybe Vaegon was just the first who did not get a dragon. Possibly because they were out of them? or are we operating under the assumption that there are dragons from this era that we don't yet know about?

I am not. Perhaps Vaegon was Dragonless because he was the only one of the three grown boys who did not have a dragon - and all daughters were dragonless.

After all, Rhaenys lists all living dragons, ridden and riderless and wild, as of the Dance. And death of a grown/ridable dragon should be a remarkable event. There are exactly two preowned dragons tamed by new owners in Rogue Prince - Vhagar and Dreamfyre - and exactly two sons of Jaeharys who died and were not Dragonless. The logical inference is that they were the only two children of Jaehaerys who rode dragons, and no one else had dragons. Not Daella, not Aemma, not Saera nor Gael.