Is it implausible to believe that the Others built the Wall?

[David C. Hunter]

Im honestly asking, because for me it is becoming a greater and greater mystery about who actually built the Wall.

Although we do not know all of their powers, the Children of the Forest seem to be more connected to nature magic. Warging, Skin changing, greenseeing, manipulating land (evidently). But there isn't one piece of evidence anywhere that states that the Children can manipulate ice, especially to such an extent that it created the Wall.

Now, it is stated that the Wall grew overtime and that it was baiscally built by Bran the Builder, The First Men, the COTF and Giants. It is also hinted that Winterfell was built around the same time by Bran the Builder, who also became the first Stark King.

We never really questioned it.

But it just seems strange to me that The White Walkers, the masters of Ice and it's manipulation, 'didn't' build the greatest structure of Westeros that is made entirely out of ice? It also clearly seems to have a magic to it (As does Winterfell at times)

Im one of those people that never viewed the Others as evil because thats not the kind of writer GRRM is, which makes the fact that they are viewed this way as a major red herring.

So what are they after? If the White Walkers were the ones who built the wall and by proxy, Winterfell, then what is the truth about the end of the Long Night?

Im starting to feel like...the COTF didnt have anything to do with the Wall being built. In fact, there are no accounts of the Children being around during the Long Night. Ever story that takes place during that time is filled wth Humans and White Walkers, but there is no mention of the Children. Its almost as if it is just assumed that the Children helped. But according to the Last Hero, no one had seen the Children for years and evidently they seemed to have just left the humans to die.

Im not saying the Children are evil, but it seems like they were content with the humans dying out. Hell, they seem to be content hiding in caves and fishing for food deep underground. I dont really think the Children helped during the Long Night, at least, not as much as they claim to have.

Im not sure what to make of it all, but I think the White Walkers have the highest potential to have built the wall.

And heres another thing....supposedly the Wall prevents the Others from entering Westeros right? Well, what about the Queen of the Night's King? She seemed to be doing fine in the Nightfort south of the Wall. I dont know what the future of this story is going but it seems that the Wall, The White Walkers and the Children are all red herrings and that GRRM is the master of misdirection, What do yall think? Is it plausible?

[Balerion06]

I would say it's plausible. I'm of the minority that seriously doubts we're getting an ice demon apocalypse in the next two books.

[Blazfemur]

jesus christ ive been saying this forever and all anyone says it's crackpot. it's a wall made of ICE. they BUILT the wall, THEN lost it to the night's watch, THEN they recruited bran the builder to build the castles and nightforts, and took credit for the whole thing.

[Blazfemur]

they may not have even built it, much more "cast" it

[mee aar dun wee wee]

I only posted on another thread recently that I thought it was strange to have a wall of ice as the defense against what seem to be ice monsters. Like building a moat to keep out crocodiles

[Archmaester Drew]

The wall wards against wights (and probably Others) as does the Childrens' cave. The queen of the Knight's King was probably brought through the Wall by the Night's King, like the wights that they brought through later. The Children were much more active before the Andals and had friendly interactions with the First Men after the Pact. The Wall can be seen as sympathetic magic (e.g., 'fighting fire with fire'). It is certainly magical... :)

[Shadow Cat 75]

I am not sure if they built the wall but it would make sense since it is made out of ice and if they wanted to keep them out a wall made out of dragon glass would make more sense since it would hurt them however I always wondered if the wall wasn't made with the use of Ice Dragons just like I think the Valyrians used their dragons to make the dragon roads.

[Archmaester Drew]

...Furthermore, the Night's Watch continued to build it up for years! :)

Edit: It is made of blocks of ice taken from frozen lakes of the North. If the Others made it, you would expect the Wall to be a great single slab of ice or such, considering their ice-craft.

[shadow282]

It's repeatedly said that the Wall is a magical as well as a physical barrier. Why would the White Walkers build a wall that would limit their movements but not their enemies movements? It would be like the Mongols building the Great Wall.

Plus, there's no indication that they are in any way capable of building anything like this. Is there any evidence that they can manipulate ice in any way?

GRRM has already showed them stealing babies and slaughtering men, women, and children; then they reanimate those corpses and force them to kill their family members. It's gonna feel pretty damn ridiculous if he tries to make them not evil.

[Blazfemur]

It's repeatedly said that the Wall is a magical as well as a physical barrier. Why would the White Walkers build a wall that would limit their movements but not their enemies movements? It would be like the Mongols building the Great Wall.

Plus, there's no indication that they are in any way capable of building anything like this. Is there any evidence that they can manipulate ice in any way?

GRRM has already showed them stealing babies and slaughtering men, women, and children; then they reanimate those corpses and force them to kill their family members. It's gonna feel pretty damn ridiculous if he tries to make them not evil.

dude, the wall could have been cast, and then bran built the castles and night forts. all that one tunnel is is exactly that: a dug tunnel, witht he weirwood gate implemented. it's said the COTF alligned witht he watch and gave them obsidian daggers. easily, after the night's watch won it by conquest, they couldve built their castles/forts, made a pact witht he cotf, and had the cotf cast THE SAME magic thats on bloodraven's cave. the clues are there. The barrier is COTF magic, not Wall magic. Further bolstered by the weirwood gate and the night's watch/cotf alliance.

but the initial wall of ice? yeah, ive theorized for years it was The Others. you should check out my threads.

Furthermore, The Others also follow the basic tennets of the Night's Oath:

1) They TAKE Craster's children, so they "father" NONE

2) They take only the BOYS, so no females, and zero possibility to hold a wife

3) They appear nomadic, and there are no specific names of lands in the land of always winter, so they technically dont hold any lands.

Take Maester Fomas' words into consideration from TWOIAF.

Further: TNW destroyed all their records from The Night's King ---> and then backward. No one knows the true history of the watch (on PURPOSE), majority dont know the logistics or politics of what theyre fighting, just that "theyre bad, let's just get them."

"All crows are liars." - Old Nan. Every single one. Why?: Because they dont know what they swore when they swore the oath, and what they're doing.

I'm telling you, im calling it now, Old Nan had it right, The Night's King is a Stark, he's 13th Lord Commander Stark, The Last Hero, exiled north and villainized into The Night's King like Fomas suggested, and wielder of the original "Ice."

[shadow282]

dude, the wall could have been cast, and then bran built the castles and night forts. all that one tunnel is is exactly that: a dug tunnel, witht he weirwood gate implemented. it's said the COTF alligned witht he watch and gave them obsidian daggers. easily, after the night's watch won it by conquest, they couldve built their castles/forts, made a pact witht he cotf, and had the cotf cast THE SAME magic thats on bloodraven's cave. the clues are there. The barrier is COTF magic, not Wall magic. Further bolstered by the weirwood gate and the night's watch/cotf alliance.

but the initial wall of ice? yeah, ive theorized for years it was The Others. you should check out my threads.

Furthermore, The Others also follow the basic tennets of the Night's Oath:

1) They TAKE Craster's children, so they "father" NONE

2) They take only the BOYS, so no females, and zero possibility to hold a wife

3) They appear nomadic, and there are no specific names of lands in the land of always winter, so they technically dont hold any lands.

Take Maester Fomas' words into consideration from TWOIAF.

Further: TNW destroyed all their records from The Night's King ---> and then backward. No one knows the true history of the watch (on PURPOSE), majority dont know the logistics or politics of what theyre fighting, just that "theyre bad, let's just get them."

"All crows are liars." - Old Nan. Every single one. Why?: Because they dont know what they swore when they swore the oath, and what they're doing.

I'm telling you, im calling it now, Old Nan had it right, The Night's King is a Stark, he's 13th Lord Commander Stark, The Last Hero, exiled north and villainized into The Night's King like Fomas suggested, and wielder of the original "Ice."

Is there any evidence that the Others can manipulate ice like that? Also, again, why would they want to? Who are they building the Wall against?

1) Just because they take Crasters children doesn't mean they can't/don't father their own children.

2) They only take boys from CRASTER. Who knows how many other people they take from/steal from. Maybe they get their girls elsewhere.

3) Just because we aren't aware of any names for the land doesn't mean they don't have names for their land, and even if they don't you don't have to name land to hold it. And where does it say they're nomadic?

To be fair, it seems a pretty fair assumption that the race that steals your babies and indiscriminately slaughters your people before raising them up as zombie soldier slaves are evil. Don't really need records for that.

[Pod The Impaler]

I would find it odd that a wall, built with magic to stop the Others from ever passing it, would be built by the Others.

[Aetta]

IIRC, GRRM has described the Others as ice sidhe. Now, he may have been speaking strictly in terms of how they look, but if they also behave like Sidhe, they certainly would not want a barrier which prevents them from gathering their changelings. Craster's kids get boring after a while.

Let's look at logistics-The Wall does not keep men out of the lands beyond, but it does keep the Others from reaching southwards. Not sure how that benefits them.

[Aetta]

IIRC, GRRM has described the Others as ice sidhe. Now, he may have been speaking strictly in terms of how they look, but if they also behave like Sidhe, they certainly would not want a barrier which prevents them from gathering their changelings. Craster's kids get boring after a while.

Let's look at logistics-The Wall does not keep men out of the lands beyond, but it does keep the Others from reaching southwards. Not sure how that benefits them.

Oops, quoting myself. So tacky.

Anyway, I have been eyeballing the wall of Asgard for any clues. Yes, yes, I know GRRM doesn't do direct retelling, but it remains interesting and has so many elements that are similar-giants, magic, beautiful horses, treachery, and....a wall.

[juanml82]

IIRC, the Last Hero went in a quest to find the CotF and enlist their alliance.

It is odd that the greatest ice structure is done to stop creatures made of ice which can manipulate ice (there is an SSM somewhere about it).

I would guess:

The Others built the Wall to keep the humans from their lands as they've built their numbers

During the Long Night, the Others go through the Wall and attack the First Men. It would seem they didn't attack the CotF - maybe they agreed to some non aggression treaty before attacking the First Men

The Last Hero, somehow, negotiates an alliance with the CotF

As part of that alliance, the CotF seal the Other's built Wall against its own creators.

With the Others south of the Wall cut from reinforcements, the First Men south of the Wall defeat them. Related or not to this, the long winter ends.

Brandon the Builder/The Starks/some other First Men begin to build the castles and towers on the south side of the Wall and creates the Night's Watch

The Others are still a menace during this time, which explains why the CotF give the Watch dragonglass

Finally, the Others retreat/go almost extinct.

This, however, may not fit other pieces of lore, such as the wildlings claiming the southerners built the Wall and left them north of it (they may be wrong about it) and doesn't reference lightbringer at all.

[LaughingStormBaratheon]

Lightbringer doesnt necessarily have anything to do with the last hero, only azor ahai. I like the theory.

[KingofSothoryos]

I like to believe that the Others built the Wall to keep the CotF out of the Far North. The CotF make peace with the Last Hero (probably a Stark) and the First Men and together defeat the Others, sealing the Wall against them with magic and starting the Night's Watch.

As for the Night's King (probably another Stark, possibly the Last Hero's son), I think he was like Bael the Bard, Rhaegar and Lyanna or Jon Snow and Ygritte (I explain the parallels here) and had a tragic love with one of the enemy which ended badly in a war like Bael, Rhaegar and Ygritte, with the Starks and the CotF teaming up to defeat the Others and the Night's Watch.

Eventually the men turn on the CotF (probably when the Andals come) and drive them North of the Wall and the original intent of the Night's Watch is lost as the Others are defeated and disappear to the Lands of Always Winter and the CotF are sent underground. Now I think the Others sense that the old alliance is done and the CotF are so diminished that they can once again reclaim what was theirs.

[Mithras]

Ice is not important. What matters is blood. The Wall was empowered with serious blood magic. Maegor killed all the contrustion workers that built the Red Keep. Perhaps he was not the only one. Perhaps all those giants, CotF and humans that built the Wall sacrificed themselves to lay the protection spell against the Others. Perhaps the 79-sentinels are supposed to give us this idea.

[George of house Priestley]

It makes sense to build an ice wall to keep out creatures that either come with the cold or generate the cold themselves. The reason being is that when the others come the cold will make the wall much tougher and thus harder to bring down.

[Kyll.Ing.]

Who's to say there's only one Wall? It might be that there's a different one bordering the Lands of Always Winter, and that the Haunted Forest in between was meant to be some sort of DMZ. The Others might have built the Wall, and the humans manned it to ensure that nobody went beyond it (from the south). A pact that went perfectly well for 13 generations of Lord Commanders, after which the Night's Watch started guarding it against attacks from the north instead, believing that the threat to their existence lay there. However, the terms of the pact were still fulfilled - no humans but the Night's Watch ever went north of the wall in an organized fashion - so the Others kept quiet.

But then some Others ventured into the Forest for some reason, killing a few Wildlings (with or without provocation, and with or without the consent of the Others' society at large). The Wildlings, not having any clue about any pact, took it as threat and assembled an army, began looting graves for ancient weapons and marched into the Frostfangs. This was seen by the Others as an act of aggression by Man, and a serious breach of the DMZ, leading to them sending an army to push all Men back south of the Wall. The Others wouldn't necessarily differ between humans living north or south of the Wall, any more than we'd be able to tell Others apart. Free Folk or Night's Watch, it's all humans to them, part of the same aggressive party that violates the peace in the Haunted Forest. Now the Men are mostly pushed back where they belong, apart from a small group that went to Hardhome (where devastating fire weapons were once unleashed - surely they must be looking for this weapon somehow), which warrants a small clean-up operation. It might be that the Others will have achieved whatever they wanted once the North is empty of humans - that is, if the humans don't escalate things with their misunderstandings.

For all we know, there could be misunderstandings both ways. The group behind the shenanigans at Craster's in the series could be a band of Other outlaws, or otherwise acting against the laws/morals of their society. As for raising corpses to fight humans, I don't think they see it any differently than how humans chop down trees to make their weapons or fire. Kill a living creature, use its corpse to kill more living creatures. If you regard plant life as equal to animal life (and it may very well be that the Others do), humans are extremely bloodthirsty.