The Hound's moral alignment?

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

This is a topic about one of my more favorite characters, Sandor Clegane.

I know he has done some pretty bad things ( killing Mycah) but I think he has a funny, caustic sense of humor, and is in a lot of ways a victim of his circumstances/ upbringing.

I get the sense that he is sort of a bad person, but with sort of traces of goodness?

For all the killings he's done, it never seems like he's killed anyone in a really terrible way, or gets pleasure from watching people squirm and suffer before he's done with them ( unlike Gregor and his henchmen.)

We see him being kind to Sansa, and doing his best to shield her from Joffrey. We see him being sort of harsh and gruff with Arya, but also doing what he can to return her to her family ( for a reward of course).

Was he good to the Stark girls because he had some slivers of kindness or just for selfish reasons?

Maybe he was good to Sansa because he just had a crush on her or something? We know he helped Arya and sort of "teamed up" with her ( though way less than the show version of them). What is the Hound's moral alignment exactly?

Btw, he might be bad, but probably better than most of the Lannisters (including Tyrion)

[Salafi Stannis]

Another troll thread from LordArryn everybody!

[David Selig]

Btw, he might be bad, but probably better than most of the Lannisters (including Tyrion)

Probably, but then who isn't better than these jerks? ;)

[A True Kaniggit]

He's either Chaotic Neutral or Lawful Evil.

[Frey Pie]

Probably, but then who isn't better than these jerks? ;)

I am growing to appreciate your insights more and more. Once again I agree. Sandor is better then many but also worse then many. He killed a kid- dick move no matter what

[Mikkel]

Another troll thread from LordArryn everybody!

I don't know, it seems a fair enough premise for a thread (hardly original, but those are few and far between, given the age of the board)

I mean. lots of people like the Hound, and see him as "not too bad", exploring why is not a bad idea.

As for "moral alignment", are you referring the Dungeons and Dragons "nine alignments" thing? Because those are far too simplistic to use as anything but a baseline for discussion.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Moral alignment? As in D&D alignment? Chaotic Neutral!

Seriously, The Hound is mostly a traumatized man who barely made it out alive of his childhood, having been raised to understand that might makes right, who has been trying to find a anchor ever since he was cast out alone into the world by a demented brother who killed the rest of his family after disfiguring him, carrying immense rage and frustration as a result.

It's suprising he's not far more 'evil' than he is, all things considered!

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

I don't know, it seems a fair enough premise for a thread (hardly original, but those are few and far between, given the age of the board)

I mean. lots of people like the Hound, and see him as "not too bad", exploring why is not a bad idea.

As for "moral alignment", are you referring the Dungeons and Dragons "nine alignments" thing? Because those are far too simplistic to use as anything but a baseline for discussion.

I mean just generally. Good guy, or bad guy who just is seizing opportunity. I do believe he is a victim of his upbringing, (being burned by Gregor, encouraged to become a killer, and probably suffering fear and abuses from Gregor growing up together. There was a reason he left Clegane Keep the minute Gregor came into his inheritance)

[Mikkel]

Seriously, The Hound is mostly a traumatized man who barely made it out alive of his childhood, having been raised to understand that might makes right, who has been trying to find a anchor ever since he was cast out alone into the world by a demented brother who killed the rest of his family after disfiguring him, carrying immense rage and frustration as a result.

It's suprising he's not far more 'evil' than he is, all things considered!

Well said.

He does do evil things - the killing of Mycah the ever-present, most obvious example - so it's difficult to paint him as any kind of a good guy - particularly as letting Mycah go would most probably have been perfectly possible for him, though he'd lose face if he was to come back and claim to be unable to track him down.

[Dicer]

For all the killings he's done, it never seems like he's killed anyone in a really terrible way, or gets pleasure from watching people squirm and suffer before he's done with them ( unlike Gregor and his henchmen.)

Maybe he does not torture people to death, but he does seem to enjoy cruelly taunting others.

There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. “No sign of your daughter, Hand,” the Hound rasped down, “but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet.”

He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned. Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. It was the butcher’s boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood. He had been cut almost in half from shoulder to waist by some terrible blow struck from above.

“You rode him down,” Ned said.

The Hound’s eyes seemed to glitter through the steel of that hideous dog’s-head helm. “He ran.” He looked at Ned’s face and laughed. “But not very fast.”

The fact that he found something funny about chasing an innocent, fleeing child and cutting him down tells me that he is no better than any of the other Lannister men.

[Universal Sword Donor]

He's not a good man. He's not even close to the worst.

[John Doe]

He is the most honorable KG member since the end of Aerys'. Before he ragequitted at least.

[Darksnider05]

He is the most honorable KG member since the end of Aerys'. Before he ragequitted at least.

No Sandor and Honor have nothing to do with each other.

[scotcat]

Like all characters in asoiaf it's never as simple as merely being a good person or a bad person.

Clegane's done some terrible things, but so have many, many other characters. I think, considering his background and the type of childhood he had, the only surprising thing here is that he didn't turn out far worse than he did, to be perfectly honest. He's far from the worst character in the novels.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

No Sandor and Honor have nothing to do with each other.

Nor does he think they should, and thinks other knights who are "honorable" are just hypocrites. Btw, even though he doesn't like being called "ser" and insists he isn't a knight, isn't he one by virture of his birth? or does the king have to make you a knight?

Anyhow, I don't think his conclusion is completely warranted that "there are no true knights" and they don't care about honor, glory, chivalry etc, but just killing.

Sure all knights have to be good killers, and can't be too sensitive about how people die. But people like Loras or Barristan probably care a great deal about "doing the right thing" and being brave + honorable, etc.

[John Doe]

The KG honor is the absolute contrary of a knights' honor (although it depends largely on the king and a KG member can be a good knight).

A good KG member has to what the King commands, no more, no less. Sandor does that job perfectly well until he quit because of the fire.
A good Knight has to protect the innocent and thinks like that. Because of that I think Jaime could be seen as a better knight than Arthur Dayne after he killed king Aerys, although fucking the queen and trying to kill innoent children fuckt that up later.

[Darksnider05]

Didn't Loras Tyrell murder a bunch of people after Renly died?

[Mikkel]

Btw, even though he doesn't like being called "ser" and insists he isn't a knight, isn't he one by virture of his birth? or does the king have to make you a knight?

Not necessarily the King, any Knight can make a Knight - I'm pretty sure Sandor could become one easily enough if he had wanted to (he certainly has the martial skills, and he is a noble, albeit the second son of a very minor house). So it's definitely a conscious choice on his part - one he couches as some deep philosophical aversion to Knights and their hypocrisy, but I think it's rooted in the fact that his hated brother is a knight.

Not that his cynical points about knights are completely without merit, but on the other hand it's not like he's doing anything to better things - rather than become a knight and do good deeds, he decides to not become a knight, but still do bad deeds.

[Dicer]

A good KG member has to what the King commands, no more, no less. Sandor does that job perfectly well until he quit because of the fire.

He quit, so he is not a good KG member.

I think, considering his background and the type of childhood he had, the only surprising thing here is that he didn't turn out far worse than he did, to be perfectly honest.

So having a harsh childhood in Westeros gives people carte blanche to do bad things like kill children and laugh about it?

I guess I would then have to appreciate Sam Tarly all the more for having a pretty bad childhood and still turning out okay instead of going around feeling sorry for himself and taking it out on other innocents.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

He quit, so he is not a good KG member.

So having a harsh childhood in Westeros gives people carte blanche to do bad things like kill children and laugh about it?

I guess I would then have to appreciate Sam Tarly all the more for having a pretty bad childhood and still turning out okay instead of going around feeling sorry for himself and taking it out on other innocents.

The Mycah thing was pretty bad admittedly.

But I get the sense the Hound regretted/felt badly about it. When Arya brings it up to him at one point, he tells her that if he mentions Mycah ever again he'll beat her bloody. This could suggest that he felt guilt and sorrow about killing him, and felt very badly about her bringing it up. Can you imagine Ramsey reacting with anger and umbrage about someone scolding him over killing Kyra? No. He'd probably smile and go into great detail about what fun it was to kill her. Big difference.

Also, you have to take in context of the Hound's time and station in life. He is charged with protecting the crown prince, and following his commands. He did not know that Mycah didn't threaten Joffrey's life, so he gave his prince and benefactor the benefit of the doubt.

Not that its right, but Im sure the Hound's violent upbringing "killing a man at age 12" and just the generally short lifespan of the peasantry from wars etc, perhaps made the Hound sort of devalue human life, or think it was "cheap" and not think of a butcher's boy as a big loss. I know it sounds bad, but I think it is sort of what the Hound thinks.