The Hound's moral alignment?

[LordStoneheart]

And you saw that as a JOKE? You read that scene and thought "he is making a joke about raping Sansa"?

That is what you thought?

Seriously?!

I actually don't care if it's a joke or a way to make Arya angry or not. I think it just highlights how awful he was to her despite the good things he's done. The fact that he associates the memory so disgustingly says a lot. He equates the song as force and then speaks of raping her. To me that is just confirmation that he fully intended to rape her after she sang of Florian and Jonquil.

[The Wolves]

He's a awful person

[Woman of War]

Sandor is meant by Martin to be a horrible character, someone who starts as monster, who chops a child to pieces, emotionlessly because he is ordered to do so and who laughs about it.

His remark about the likes of Lollys and Tyrion, "If you can't protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can" is pure hatespeech against "life that is unworthy of life", allegedly lower than he is because born that way while he himself is strong. Advocating eugenics, we would call it today.

No, his darkness is, given to the horrible fate of many in those books, only a small justification for the little boy who got burned by his brother. His approach to other human beings is seeing them as lesser ones who are too dumb to understand how the world works while he sees himself as utterly despicable and yet superior to others for having the insight it takes for survival. Humiliating and absolute arrogance at the same time. "Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world (meaning: I am part of those superior while you are nil), don't ever believe any different."

And yet in his insecurity he is a hugely interesting literary invention, getting moved into questioning himself by two children, seeing the mirror in one and the porcelainelike ideal in the other. He is doomed to be broken by his own vulnerability. While one girl spared him the other will be his doom the one or other way. Given their violent dynamics we could expect Sansa to be the victim if she oversteps his ideal of her. But it might well be Sandor who will die not only for Sansa but through her.......

....if he ever leaves his Quiet Isle since staying there would be the ending closest to happy his character can expect.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As I see it, the Sandor that only wanted a song from Sansa is the REAL Sandor, not the monster that kills children. He could have taken her with him, or force her. He didn't. That's NOT what he is. That's what his brother is, a rapist and a murderer. He did the right thing: he left Sansa alone.

...yet, the "right thing" didn't work out for Sansa. She was married to the imp. As far as Sandor knows, Tyrion has had sex with her, and probably against her will. That's the motivation of his outburst "I did the right thing and yet, she was hurt and taken from me?". Of course, Sandor is not naive to pretend he would marry Sansa, but he does feel protective about her, and by taking away her "innocence", he probably felt THAT was taken from him.

[Woman of War]

As I see it, the Sandor that only wanted a song from Sansa is the REAL Sandor, not the monster that kills children.....

And where was the "real Sandor" when it came to Mycah? Or is the "real Sandor" the killer who made the choice to follow the orders of some tyrant while turning off his "real Sandor" conscience?

His conscience could have led him to a sellsword company or to a farm years ago, he would hardly have starved without the Lannisters' monthly salary. He had a choice and he made the choice pro Lannister hitman.

And still, he is fascinating to read about but any whitewashing makes his character dull and cheesy. Martin did not allow him to see the choice, the author wanted Sandor exactly to be the child killer. And Martin's Sandor is just as disgusted about himself as we readers rightfully are.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And where was the "real Sandor" when it came to Mycah? Or is the "real Sandor" the killer who made the choice to follow the orders of some tyrant while turning off his "real Sandor" conscience?

His conscience could have led him to a sellsword company or to a farm years ago, he would hardly have starved without the Lannisters' monthly salary. He had a choice and he made the choice pro Lannister hitman.

And still, he is fascinating to read about but any whitewashing makes his character dull and cheesy. Martin gave him no choice,mthe author wanted Sandor exactly to be the child killer. And Martin's Sandor is just as disgusted about himself as we readers rightfully are.

Well, as you said, he's fascinating and that's the fascinating part about him: unlike many people in Westeros, he does know right from wrong, he knows Sansa is a victim and she's innocent from anything. He could have also taken Arya to the Freys and being given a reward, and he didn't do it.

I think that's the reason he left during BW. He got fed up with it. The whole "Hound" image, the rudeness or toughness is what has kept him alive. Being a loyal dog who likes to kill is what makes other fear him. He wanted to serve Robb, he was tired of being the Lannister's hound. He is right about Knights having to do awful things, but I suppose he also told himself, like Tywin, that many things were supposed to be done for a "greater good". With Mycah, he was just a soldier doing what he's told, and doing what you are told is something easier than simply do the right thing. He enjoyed it because that's what the Hound should be. Just like Jaime hid inside of himself, he hid insde of the Hound persona, I suppose.

[OldGimletEye]

His conscience could have led him to a sellsword company or to a farm years ago, he would hardly have starved without the Lannisters' monthly salary. He had a choice and he made the choice pro Lannister hitman.

And why didn't Tyrion go and join him as a farmer or as a sell sword?

ETA:

I think you are under some kind of impression that Westeros is some kind of social democracy where the employment at will doctrine is the norm. But, even if Sandor had become a sell sword, what makes you think he wouldn't have faced the same ethical dilemmas? I mean yeah he could have become a sell sword and then um uh found himself fighting for one of the slaver cities in SB. And I don't think he could have just gone down and gotten a loan from the local Lannisport credit union in order to start farming.

[OldGimletEye]

I think that's the reason he left during BW. He got fed up with it. The whole "Hound" image, the rudeness or toughness is what has kept him alive. Being a loyal dog who likes to kill is what makes other fear him. He wanted to serve Robb, he was tired of being the Lannister's hound. He is right about Knights having to do awful things, but I suppose he also told himself, like Tywin, that many things were supposed to be done for a "greater good". With Mycah, he was just a soldier doing what he's told, and doing what you are told is something easier than simply do the right thing. He enjoyed it because that's what the Hound should be. Just like Jaime hid inside of himself, he hid insde of the Hound persona, I suppose.

I think this is right. I think he eventually did get fed up with the Lannisters. I suppose one could criticize him for not leaving sooner. And perhaps he should have. But, leaving Lannister service wasn't as easy as some suppose. We're talking about a feudal society here.

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~~

Just like Jaime hid inside of himself, he hid insde of the Hound persona, I suppose.

And now the Hound is dead. And who is Sandor?

[ummester]

Sandor has always been a big softy underneath but has learnt to live his life inside a very nasty shell.

The priests or whatever who made him the gravedigger understood him - he just had to let go of his hate, forgive his heavy handed bro and himself for the choices he'd mad since.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

like most everything with sandor, theres multiple layers to this too. yes, he was trying to goad arya into killing him but i wouldnt doubt the idea of forcing himself on sansa crossed his mind. iirc sansa noticed the hound crying before he leaves her at kings landing. since he was really drunk by the time he got to her, i assumed he started crying because he realized the horrible thing he was thinking before he acted on it.

the whole quote was to try and get arya to kill him but there are some hidden messages in it. the whole ripping her heart out part was just fuel for the fire but the rest was true. even though i do think he mentions raping her and standing there while she was getting beat because he wishes those things never happened but they did and he tries to use them to his advantage at the moment. the hound is a really complex character but hes not much of a liar.

I agree completely, he was horrified by what he was planning to do. When Sansa sang to him, it was like a knife in the chest. Stopped him cold.

wgen he tells Arya he should have fucked her bloody it was half true. Half of him wanted to - the monster half. The buried human being in him was awakened just in time.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think this is right. I think he eventually did get fed up with the Lannisters. I suppose one could criticize him for not leaving sooner. And perhaps he should have. But, leaving Lannister service wasn't as easy as some suppose. We're talking about a feudal society here.

The text tells us why he left - because everything was burning and he's terrified of fire. If He was morally opposed to the Lannisters maybe he should have left when they asked him to do something to hurt someone else

The hounds departure is just as messy as Jaimes burning of the letter. selfish reasons are the trigger for the break which has been building up ove several books.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Double post

[OldGimletEye]

The text tells us why he left - because everything was burning and he's terrified of fire. If He was morally opposed to the Lannisters maybe he should have left when they asked him to do something to hurt someone else

The hounds departure is just as messy as Jaimes burning of the letter. selfish reasons are the trigger for the break which has been building up ove several books.

Yes, Sandor should have bolted from the Lannisters long before the Battle of Blackwater. Even better, he should have actively opposed them. But saying that he should have done X if he felt Y isn't the same thing as saying he didn't do X because he didn't feel Y.

When Sandor tells Sansa something to the effect that "It isn't me that's awful, it's the world that is awful", you know what that sounds like to me? It's sounds like somebody trying to make an excuse. But, why would somebody make such an excuse if they simply didn't care? They answer is that they wouldn't. Now you can certainly criticize Sandor for trying ignore the problems before him by "blaming the system" and trying to convince himself that he need not do anything about it. That's fair. I have certainly criticized him for it. Sandor's methods of dealing with the Lannister's atrocities certainly were not ideal. Much like Jaime he convinced himself that he could simply ignore the problem.

I would submit that Sandor is hardly the only person in ASOIAF to have failed to act against a bad regime. Barristan continued to support Aerys despite Aerys' atrocities. And so did Rhaegar. Tyrion, despite his contempt for Cersei and Joffrey, continued to actively work to keep the Lannister regime in power.

Also, I think we do get some hints that Sandor soured on the Lannisters. As Sandor and Sansa crossed the moat into Maegor's holdfast Sandor refers to Joffrey as a "brave boy". I am pretty sure Sandor was being a smart ass there. And it would seem to me that at the KL riot Sandor clearly chose to protect Sansa over Joff.

Yes the fires at the Blackwater is what caused Sandor to finally break away from the Lannisters. But you have to wonder if Sandor's resolve to face his worst fear wasn't somewhat eroded by his dwindling loyalty to the Lannisters.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

The Hound seems to truely believe that following orders absolves him of any moral responsibility in the case of Myca. He kills him with no regret because he feels that's his job, the boy attacked Joff and he is Joffs sworn sheild. In the case of Sansa, he never beats her, weather this is his sense of right and wrong or simply that she is no threat to Joff is debatable. We do see however that once he is on his own, his own twisted sense of honor starts to become apparent he protects Arya and even comes to respect her to an extent when she shows she's not completely helpless. I am not arguing that he is good, he clearly isn't. What i am saying is that he doesn't seem like the truely evil characters like his brother, vargo hoat or lorche who seem to hurt people just for the sake of it.

To some extent you have to say If a dog goes bad you have to blame the owner.

[Woman of War]

And why didn't Tyrion go and join him as a farmer or as a sell sword?

I do not see what Tyrion does in your question here. Apart from that, the Hound and Tyrion don't even like each other, Tyrion would never have gone anywhere with Sandor nor would Sandor have accepted the crippled boy as companion. (Nor would any sellsword company have accepted Tyrion without Daddy's money and for farmers the dwarf would have been a useless eater.And when Sandor was old enough to leave Tyrion was still too young, he is three years younger. The idea is a bit weird, the two together as boys.) And whether Tyrion goes or stays has nothing to do with Sandor's decision, so why ask??

Tyrion and Sandor going anywhere together at an earlier point of their lives is lunatic. But exactly because of that impossibility I can imagine that Sandor and Tyrion might get thrown in to work together by Martin at later occasions - if Sandor does not stay on the island or is out of the story.

ETA:

I think you are under some kind of impression that Westeros is some kind of social democracy where the employment at will doctrine is the norm. But, even if Sandor had become a sell sword, what makes you think he wouldn't have faced the same ethical dilemmas? I mean yeah he could have become a sell sword and then um uh found himself fighting for one of the slaver cities in SB. And I don't think he could have just gone down and gotten a loan from the local Lannisport credit union in order to start farming.

No, Sandor simply could have packed his stuff and be gone. He would have found work everywhere, he had not sworn an oath as kingsguard so far and not every boy from lesser nobility has to enter the service of the king, he was no commoner, he could have worked as hedge knight for anyone else. He had a choice and he chose the king. He stayed because he saw himself as worthless and all moral consideration s were lost in his own eyes on someone like him. I guess he slipped into being the cruel hitman slowly, lost his identity without giving much thought to it - until it was too late. Many mafiosi may start with small favors to the boss and end as killers.

Working as payed killer is what Sandor had been good at, what made him valuable in others' eyes, what gave him a feeling of superiority, actually his physical prowess was the only thing that gave him that feeling and yet it was the reason for his self hatred.

[Woman of War]

The text tells us why he left - because everything was burning and he's terrified of fire. If He was morally opposed to the Lannisters maybe he should have left when they asked him to do something to hurt someone else

The hounds departure is just as messy as Jaimes burning of the letter. selfish reasons are the trigger for the break which has been building up ove several books.

And this

[OldGimletEye]

I do not see what Tyrion does in your question here. Apart from that, the Hound and Tyrion don't even like each other, Tyrion would never have gone anywhere with Sandor nor would Sandor have accepted the crippled boy as companion. (Nor would any sellsword company have accepted Tyrion without Daddy's money and for farmers the dwarf would have been a useless eater.And when Sandor was old enough to leave Tyrion was still too young, he is three years younger. The idea is a bit weird, the two together as boys.) And whether Tyrion goes or stays has nothing to do with Sandor's decision, so why ask??

Tyrion and Sandor going anywhere together at an earlier point of their lives is lunatic. But exactly because of that impossibility I can imagine that Sandor and Tyrion might get thrown in to work together by Martin at later occasions - if Sandor does not stay on the island or is out of the story.

The point here is that you seem to want to treat Tyrion and Sandor differently, when the truth of the matter is that Tyrion really isn't that much of a better ethical actor than Sandor is. If you want to criticize Sandor for not leavining the Lannisters sooner, then fine. But, I think the same criticism could be leveled against Tyrion.

No, Sandor simply could have packed his stuff and be gone. He would have found work everywhere, he had not sworn an oath as kingsguard so far and not every boy from lesser nobility has to enter the service of the king, he was no commoner, he could have worked as hedge knight for anyone else. He had a choice and he chose the king. He stayed because he saw himself as worthless and all moral consideration s were lost in his own eyes on someone like him. I guess he slipped into being the cruel hitman slowly, lost his identity without giving much thought to it - until it was too late. Many mafiosi may start with small favors to the boss and end as killers.

Working as payed killer is what Sandor had been good at, what made him valuable in others' eyes, what gave him a feeling of superiority, actually his physical prowess was the only thing that gave him that feeling and yet it was the reason for his self hatred.

You do realize that Sandor was only 12 years old when he entered Lannister service, right? Upon entering their service, it is likely that Sandor did swear some of kind of oath. Even if he didn't swear some kind of formal oath to the Lannisters, I would be pretty sure the Lannisters would have assumed that Sandor owed the them type of fealty owed to liege lords.

You seem to have this idea that Sandor could have just given the Lannisters his two weeks notice and then entered the local community college to train for a new career. Shit doesn't work that way in a feudal society. If Sandor had left the Lannisters many lords in Westeros probably would have percieved Sandor as being an oath breaker, something that isn't looked upon too kindly in Westeros. Many of the lords of Westeros simply don't give a shit about the moral qualms of their underlings. Sandor's only real choice would have been probably to cross the sea and become a sell sword in Essos or something. But if he had done that, he likely would have faced many of the same ethical dilemmas that he had with the Lannisters.

Yes, you can argue that Sandor should have Lannisters long ago. But, let's not pretend that it would have been easy.

[LongRider]

Realizing that one is in a situation that has become intolerable, admitting it to oneself, deciding what to do about it and putting that plan into action take time. This is what builds the story and the drama.

The Hound could of left, but even when realizing his situation was changing and becoming more and more intolerable to him still takes a while. His small protections of Sansa, his growing disgust of King Joffery, his moral dilemmas all had to coalesce until finally his fear of fire pushed him over the edge.

And when he left he left as an deserter and so his leaving was not well thought out. He could have joined up a sell sword company, before or after he left. But interestingly, even after he left he did not. He said after he left "I'm my own dog now." I don't think he wanted to hire out his sword to the highest bidder. He was done with that.

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~~

You seem to have this idea that Sandor could have just given the Lannisters his two weeks notice and then entered the local community college to train for a new career. Shit doesn't work that way in a feudal society. If Sandor had left the Lannisters many lords in Westeros probably would have percieved Sandor as being an oath breaker, something that isn't looked upon too kindly in Westeros. Many of the lords of Westeros simply don't give a shit about the moral qualms of their underlings. Sandor's only real choice would have been probably to cross the sea and become a sell sword in Essos or something. But if he had done that, he likely would have faced many of the same ethical dilemmas that he had with the Lannisters.

Yes, you can argue that Sandor should have Lannisters long ago. But, let's not pretend that it would have been easy.

:agree:

"Many of the lords of Westeros simply don't give a shit about the moral qualms of their underlings."

^^^ Deserves repeating.