The Hound's moral alignment?

[Woman of War]

Sansa is just where she needs to be. She's gonna take LF down big time.

If Sandor "saves" sansa I just might puke.

Uh he didnt kiss her but he did FORCE HER ONTO A BED WITH A KNIFE

Will the romantization of the hound never cease!?!

It must be an incredibly romantic situation when a man considers raping a woman and then doesn't. :devil:

So much romance in knife at throat

Of course I am aware that this is not all there is to Sandor's character. But styling him into no more than a romance hero goes far away from those eminently important topics like redemption, guilt in following orders, identity, religion and war. And seeing how Martin declinates those topics along the character Sandor is fascinating. Only we do not need any quantifying of morality for it. At least I can follow with even more empathy if I don't waste my time with defining a character's position on a morality scale but if I simply look at him or her as fascinated observer.

And yes, we are allowed to love the character of Sandor even if he is a despicable and cruel monster, if he is narrowminded and pathetic or caring and heartbreaking. We need not reduce him by whitewashing. Counts for any character.

[Annara Snow]

This is a fair assessment. My problem was that people were ignoring the Fire part and just saying he left because he was "finally fed up with the Lannisters". No, he left because of the fire. BUT he didn't feel like anything was holding him there anymore either. It wasn't a particularly noble thing, but it was a good thing in the end. I really feel it's similar to Jaime and the Letter. I think both characters did the right thing for their respective moral progression, but kinda for the wrong reasons.

Ending a relationship because it's bad and harmful to you in multiple ways and because the other side doesn't care about your wellbeing is not a wrong reason. That goes for both these cases.

[Le Cygne]

Sandor's words ("I could keep you safe"), his kiss (she gives him), his cloak (bloody, red on white, consummation symbolism), that she remembers again and again, throughout the story... Those are the elements of the wedding ceremony. Everything in Sansa and Sandor's last scene together is straight out of her dreams of marriage to a "tall and strong" man. He is there to rescue her, once again, but he is afraid of the fire (and looking back, she tells us "it was only the fire he feared").

Her song is her prayer for him, she knows the fire troubles him, she tells us this right before this scene. She prays to the Mother, "save him, if you can," and when he comes to her from a ship called Prayer, she sings to the Mother, "save our sons from war, we pray." She "remembers" and that's the song she sings. And she caresses his face and puts on his cloak (a second time, rule of three suggests there will be a third). And he remembers she "sang me a sweet little song."

Later, when Lysa "sings" on her wedding night, Sansa is troubled remembering what happened to her (Tyrion told her "a Lannister lie"). A callback to the scene with Sandor, a hound waits for Sansa in bed, she lay down beside him, he licks her face (his kiss) and she pets him (her caress). She hopes Sandor is there to resue her from Marillion (who she compares to Littlefinger). Then she dreams of Sandor naked in bed with her ("bigger than Tyrion") - and her eyes are open for him, not tightly closed like with Tyrion. "I'll have a song from you," Sandor tells her. "I'll sing for you, gladly," she told him before.

So many layers. This just touches on a few, there's a lot more... It's a pretty good story, that's why so many like it.

(fixed the quotes)

[Annara Snow]

It must be an incredibly romantic situation when a man considers raping a woman and then doesn't. :devil:

That's the entire reasoning for shipping Sansa and Tyrion, isn't it?

At least the SanSan shippers have other things to base the ship on, don't claim that anyone else would have raped Sansa in the same situation, and don't claim that Sansa had an obligation to have sex with Sandor to make him feel better about himself and out of gratitude for him not having beaten her or raped her when he had a chance to.

[Annara Snow]

Safer than she would've been the The Hound. Just picture it, the two of them traveling together Arya and The Hound -style... She wouldn't stay a virgin for long. The Hound is more than a little bit rapey

Littlefinger is more than a lot rapey.

[Woman of War]

That's the entire reasoning for shipping Sansa and Tyrion, isn't it?

At least the SanSan shippers have other things to base the ship on, don't claim that anyone else would have raped Sansa in the same situation, and don't claim that Sansa had an obligation to have sex with Sandor to make him feel better about himself and out of gratitude for him not having beaten her or raped her when he had a chance to.

I neverever mentioned Tyrion here, why are you picking at me?

There is no need of playing your favorite character against any other, in the hope that after a hundred posts you have won by sheer quantity and your favorite comes off as morally more valuable.

Being "morally superior" does not make a character more fascinating to read about, not more interesting and touching nor more valuable for the story. And maybe not even more relatable.

So why do you insist on "my favorite is more moral than your favorite"? Don't you feel entitled to like a character if he or she has very dark aspects, does liking a complex, maybe evil character rub off on the poster and so people have to fabricate their own justification?

A big disservice to the books.

[Cas Stark]

Wait, where is there any evidence that the Hound is "rapey"?

He doesn't rape Sansa. He doesn't even kiss her. We don't know of him ever raping anyone. We know he likes killing people, and that he's really violent and cynical and he hates the layer of BS that the nobility likes to use as cover for their own violent and cynical BS.

[Le Cygne]

He hates Gregor, too. And he calls the rapists "rats" when he talks to Sansa about the rescue. When she is attacked by a rapist (Marillion), Sansa thinks the Hound is there to rescue her. Not sure how much more clear the author could be.

[OldGimletEye]

Wait, where is there any evidence that the Hound is "rapey"?

He doesn't rape Sansa. He doesn't even kiss her. We don't know of him ever raping anyone. We know he likes killing people, and that he's really violent and cynical and he hates the layer of BS that the nobility likes to use as cover for their own violent and cynical BS.

Well the Hound is often an obnoxious and drunk asshole, so golly he's just got to be a rapist. Ok, I get there is a little more too it than that, but really the evidence for him being a rapist is pretty thin.

[Le Cygne]

I think you meant the opposite. There is no evidence. :)

From the official app:

Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city....

Arya considers killing him, and the Hound attempts to force her into it by telling her how he killed Mycah and how he made Sansa sing for him.

[OldGimletEye]

I think you meant the opposite. There is no evidence. :)

You are right. I changed "against" to "for". This is the reason I don't speak two languages. I have a hard enough time speaking and writing in one. :lol:

[LongRider]

I neverever mentioned Tyrion here, why are you picking at me?

There is no need of playing your favorite character against any other, in the hope that after a hundred posts you have won by sheer quantity and your favorite comes off as morally more valuable.

Being "morally superior" does not make a character more fascinating to read about, not more interesting and touching nor more valuable for the story. And maybe not even more relatable.

So why do you insist on "my favorite is more moral than your favorite"? Don't you feel entitled to like a character if he or she has very dark aspects, does liking a complex, maybe evil character rub off on the poster and so people have to fabricate their own justification?

A big disservice to the books.

Bringing up Tyrion's near rape of Sansa is a fair comparison. Nobody cares a hoot if Tyrion is your favorite.

[Le Cygne]

The author adds contrast, it's a common literary technique and important to the discussion. Tyrion and Littlefinger are the contrast. Both Tyrion and Littlefinger sexually assaulted Sansa, after forcibly marrying and kidnapping her. Forced stripping, kissing, groping.

And it's very relevant that Sandor wanted to kiss Sansa, didn't think she wanted him to, didn't kiss her, and she chose to give him the kiss in her dreams. That's putting the choice for expressing her own sexuality in Sansa's hands. This reads like a romance novel (and cruel kisses = the way Dany describes Daario's kisses, and she says "no one ever kissed her like Daario Naharis" - she's super turned on by him):

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

[Woman of War]

Bringing up Tyrion's near rape of Sansa is a fair comparison. Nobody cares a hoot if Tyrion is your favorite.

Why are you mentioning Tyrion together with my posts?

Actually I do not care about anyone's sensitive feelings about their favorite, the characters are fictional.

But if the only defense for a character is that some other character is just as bad then your arguing is more than poor.

But as I said: you need not defend Sandor at all, I find him interesting just like he is and might become, and no superficial and overemotional arguing can stop me from liking his story. I don't need his character cleansed of what makes him complex before I allow myself to value his story.

[kimim]

Wait, where is there any evidence that the Hound is "rapey"?

He doesn't rape Sansa. He doesn't even kiss her. We don't know of him ever raping anyone. We know he likes killing people, and that he's really violent and cynical and he hates the layer of BS that the nobility likes to use as cover for their own violent and cynical BS.

I agree, Sandor is not rapey, so why oh why are people talking about rape???

Whatever. I think Sandor saved himself, and does not need to be saved by Sansa. I also believe Sansa will save herself, and will not need to be saved by Sandor. They may find one another again, fall in love, or not. I prefer to see Sandor remain at the monastery, digging graves, petting dogs. That man needs a break from reality.

.

[Le Cygne]

But he wasn't characterized that way. As wanting to spend his life in a monastery (where they are mute, celibate, and praying), digging graves, petting dogs.

He's a talkative guy. Not religious, even named his horse Stranger as a tongue in cheek gesture. And he said all a man needs is a woman. While looking at Sansa's boobs. And the love train has left the station.

That's not actually a happy ending for a guy like him.

And the author has not constructed the story that way, either. Stranger wants to go. They tried to "cut and polish" him into Driftwood, and he said nothing doing. And Sandor - who knows how to aim a clod of dirt - threw one at the feet of two he took for knights. Add that to Sansa obsessing about him, with all of those very classic elements of a love story in progress. Also, his name keeps coming up, too...

[kimim]

But he wasn't characterized that way. As wanting to spend his life in a monastery (where they are mute, celibate, and praying), digging graves, petting dogs.

He's a talkative guy. Not religious, even named his horse Stranger as a tongue in cheek gesture. And he said all a man needs is a woman. While looking at Sansa's boobs. And the love train has left the station.

That's not actually a happy ending for a guy like him.

You could be right. How about a very, very long break from reality at the monastery? Being involved with Sansa would take him back into the game, and he hates the game and everything and everyone involved with it. Sandor would have been happiest with the wildlings, before the Others showed up.

[Le Cygne]

You could be right. How about a very, very long break from reality at the monastery? Being involved with Sansa would take him back into the game, and he hates the game and everything and everyone involved with it. Sandor would have been happiest with the wildlings, before the Others showed up.

He's a fighter, too, though. And a protector, that's how he's characterized. And he wants to protect her. And she could use some help. He could use some, too. Everyone could. There's nothing wrong with caring about people, in fact, it's a good sign.

[Annara Snow]

Well the Hound is often an obnoxious and drunk asshole, so golly he's just got to be a rapist. Ok, I get there is a little more too it than that, but really the evidence for him being a rapist is pretty thin.

Don't forget that he's tall, muscular, a soldier, talks harshly and uses bad language. Clearly he's a rapist! As opposed to a short, well-dressed "friend of the family" (eerrr) who deals in wheeling and dealing finances, doesn't carry a sword, can't fight (though he's good at pushing people from the Moon Door or ordering others to kill), talks in a smarmy way, and smells of mint; clearly, that kind of a guy can't be rapey at all!

I neverever mentioned Tyrion here, why are you picking at me?

There is no need of playing your favorite character against any other, in the hope that after a hundred posts you have won by sheer quantity and your favorite comes off as morally more valuable.

Being "morally superior" does not make a character more fascinating to read about, not more interesting and touching nor more valuable for the story. And maybe not even more relatable.

So why do you insist on "my favorite is more moral than your favorite"? Don't you feel entitled to like a character if he or she has very dark aspects, does liking a complex, maybe evil character rub off on the poster and so people have to fabricate their own justification?

A big disservice to the books.

Where did I compare the relative morals of Tyrion and Sandor as people? The only thing I compared were the two situations, and your opposite reactions to them. You practically invited that comparison with your sarcastic comment that it's so romantic when a guy considers raping a girl and then decides against it. Well, that's exactly what happened with Tyrion and Sansa, and it's actually named as the reason by why many why they ship them, and why Tyrion is a wonderful guy that Sansa doesn't "appreciate" enough. You yourself have repeatedly expressed a degree of support for the idea of Tyrion and Sansa ending up together, while repeatedly - including here - expressing outrage at the idea of Sandor and Sansa ending up together.

So, tell me, how does that work? Basically:

"Sandor may have considered raping Sansa" (which is not even clear as you make it out to be, as it's based on a questionable interpretation of a couple of lines he said long after - I mean, you could say "he threatened to kill her", that's definitely true, but you don't do that, you choose to insist on the idea that he was going to rape her) "but he did not do it. OMG, he was disgusting and it's an abusive relationship, and how could anyone want them together!"

"Tyrion did consider raping Sansa, but he did not do it. Oh, he is such a nice guy, and so good to her, it could be a really good relationship if she was older and more mature and could appreciate him!"

Hmmmm....

[kimim]

He's a fighter, too, though. And a protector, that's how he's characterized. And he wants to protect her. And she could use some help. He could use some, too. Everyone could. There's nothing wrong with caring about people, in fact, it's a good sign.

He's a fighter, but I don't think he likes fighting. He's a protector who needs to protect himself, and heal himself, first. The way he is with Sansa at KL is horrible to see, for him, as much as for her.

Also, Sansa has changed. She's no longer the helpless child of KL. LF is Sansa' teacher--ie., she's being taught to play the game. Hooking up with Sansa would take Sandor right back into the game, with her as a serious player. I'm not sure if he'd want anything to do with that Sansa...if that's how Sansa develops, lol.