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Issue with King Jon I Targaryen theory


The Bittersteel

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Supposing R+L=J, many people use the idea that Rhaegar has entered into a second secret polygamous marriage with Lyanna to make Jon legitimate. However, I see know reason why many lords of Westeros would accept this as valid as it is entirely against the norm for Westerosi culture as well as being invalid with the faith of the seven. The only examples as far as I'm aware in the past were Aegon's which took place before he converted and Maegor I's whose relationship with the faith was so poor he hardly counts as justification. House Martell too might be riled at the idea that casting Elia aside was a 'legitimate' action.



Consequently, would Jon's claim be seen as only as good if not worse than Edric Storm's?


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All depends on the situation. Personally, I think Jon being a king is the closest thing to a lock this side of R+L=J. Whether that's NK, KITN, IT, Kot7K, or King of Love and Beauty of the tournament for Dany's coronation, I have no idea. If he is king of everything, I would imagine his claim derives more from being humanity's savior rather than any blood ties. The potential blood ties may just be a covering reason if a grand cousel or something similar crowns him.


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All depends on the situation. Personally, I think Jon being a king is the closest thing to a lock this side of R+L=J. Whether that's NK, KITN, IT, Kot7K, or King of Love and Beauty of the tournament for Dany's coronation, I have no idea. If he is king of everything, I would imagine his claim derives more from being humanity's savior rather than any blood ties. The potential blood ties may just be a covering reason if a grand cousel or something similar crowns him.

This how I see it working too. I'm sure his actions will stand him in good stead I guess and Edric is way too young to really contribute much. As well as being in exile.

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North follows him cos they will need a leader cos winter is coming and the KITN will.

Wildlings follow him because they'll need a leader and Tormund and Val is the best they have and they'll throw their lot in with Jon as he's their best chance of defeating the Others.

Stannis forces will follow because Mel says so and Stannis will either die or say so and move aside.

The Riverlands and Vale will follow because he's KITN and Sansa will tell them to.

It's Dany and possibly JC to whom R+L=J matters, and Dany will fall in line because of it.

Everyone else, most notably the Lannisters, he will bend to his will when he comes South with a vast host of wildlings, wargs, Giants, sorcerers etc. His will being the preparation and defence of the realm against the Others.

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North follows him cos they will need a leader cos winter is coming and the KITN will.

Wildlings follow him because they'll need a leader and Tormund and Val is the best they have and they'll throw their lot in with Jon as he's their best chance of defeating the Others.

Stannis forces will follow because Mel says so and Stannis will either die or say so and move aside.

The Riverlands and Vale will follow because he's KITN and Sansa will tell them to.

It's Dany and possibly JC to whom R+L=J matters, and Dany will fall in line because of it.

Everyone else, most notably the Lannisters, he will bend to his will when he comes South with a vast host of wildlings, wargs, Giants, sorcerers etc. His will being the preparation and defence of the realm against the Others.

Almost none of this post aligns to a reasonable argument.

North, wildlings fine.

Stannis will never bend to anyone.

Jon shares no Tully blood so while he could claim to be King in the North he has no blood claim over the Trident. I see no reason why the war ravaged Riverlands would listen to a young girl let alone the Vale which she has no hold over whatsoever.

J.C. is running out of time and has raised young Griff, I think he's committed to seeing him on the throne.

Dany never met Rhaegar and has no loyalty to him. She believes the Dragons give her the right to be queen. Like Stannis I don't see her bending.

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Jon and young Aegon both marry Danny (turning polygamy on its head) each has supporters but all three should be able to ride a dragon, confirming them as Targ's and leaders of the war against the others. Any children that Dany has (by either husband) will be legitimate and rightful heirs. So ends the Saga. :cool4:


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Whether that's NK, KITN, IT, Kot7K, or King of Love and Beauty of the tournament for Dany's coronation, I have no idea.

This image just made my night, thank you for that. :lol:

As for the main point of the thread, I don't think Jon's legitimacy or lack thereof is going to matter. (For the record, I'm not sure if he'd be legitimate or not but I think Rhaegar thought he was, and his reasoning was enough for the three KG at ToJ to agree. That may or may not matter.) We know from Ned telling Robert "you had the better claim" that, right of conquest or not, apparently the Westerosi kind of like being able to say "hey, the new boss is connected to the old boss, we didn't completely restart!" If Jon is what they have in that regard, plus a hero of the war against the Others as is likely if he lives at all, well, he's in with a pretty good chance.

(He's in with an even better chance if there's a Baratheon female to marry and unite the claims, whether this be Shireen, Myrcella - legally a Baratheon - or even a legitimized Mya. People may see such a union as the best hope for no more civil wars for a while. Which they would want. Desperately. Considering recent events.)

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if r+l=j is true (fully believe it is but ill still say if until its confirmed), i get the feeling jon will disregard it and keep it as his secret like ned did. not sure how hell find out but once he does i think hell still consider ned as his father. hell also realize thats why ned didnt try and tell him what the NW really was and let him go for his own protection in case word somehow got out he was rhaegars son.



this is also assuming that robb legitimized jon and named him his heir (which most people believe but, again, not confirmed).


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if r+l=j is true (fully believe it is but ill still say if until its confirmed), i get the feeling jon will disregard it and keep it as his secret like ned did. not sure how hell find out but once he does i think hell still consider ned as his father. hell also realize thats why ned didnt try and tell him what the NW really was and let him go for his own protection in case word somehow got out he was rhaegars son.

this is also assuming that robb legitimized jon and named him his heir (which most people believe but, again, not confirmed).

It's because of what GRRM have been giving us in the text, Jon's active denial...

denying he is a prince...

“Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

denying he is of royal blood...

It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne.

denying he is a king...

“You (Gilly) don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.”

denying that there is a promised prince or azor ahai reborn...

“Your fires have been known to lie.”

“I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—”

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady.

GRRM:

Another curious thing of your books is that you give us a lot of hints through the Red God flames, the words of the Ghost of the High Heart or through the visions of the House of the Undying…

[Laughs] Well, are they spoilers? You have to look them very carefully to figure out what they mean. Not all of them mean what they seem to mean...

Surely the plot is very unpredictable despite all the prophecies you give to help us...

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

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Supposing R+L=J, many people use the idea that Rhaegar has entered into a second secret polygamous marriage with Lyanna to make Jon legitimate. However, I see know reason why many lords of Westeros would accept this as valid as it is entirely against the norm for Westerosi culture as well as being invalid with the faith of the seven. The only examples as far as I'm aware in the past were Aegon's which took place before he converted and Maegor I's whose relationship with the faith was so poor he hardly counts as justification. House Martell too might be riled at the idea that casting Elia aside was a 'legitimate' action.

Consequently, would Jon's claim be seen as only as good if not worse than Edric Storm's?

Aenys was the child of Aegon's second wife, Rhaenys, and him and his line were recognized as the rightful kings. There is precedent for it, so Jon would be considered legitimate. Otherwise, the KG wouldn't have been at the ToJ when KL fell, but going on a ship to Dragonstone while Starfall sent people to look after Lyanna.

Also, Dameon Blackfyre's supporters said that Aegon IV promised Daemon that he could be married to two wives at the same time without any qualms regarding it.

Also, it seems you forgot that polygamy doesn't render Rhaegar's marriage to Elia null.

What is the point of giving Jon a secret royal heritage hinted at throughout the books if it isn't going to impact the story?

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Aenys was the child of Aegon's second wife, Rhaenys, and him and his line were recognized as the rightful kings. There is precedent for it, so Jon would be considered legitimate. otherwise, the KG wouldn't have been at the ToJ when KL fell, but going on a ship to Dragonstone while Starfall sent people to look after Lyanna.

Also, Dameon Blackfyre's supporters said that Aegon IV promised Daemon that he could be married to two wives at the same time without any qualms regarding it.

Also, it seems you forgot that polygamy doesn't render Rhaegar's marriage to Elia null.

What is the point of giving Jon a secret royal heritage hinted at throughout the books if it isn't going to impact the story?

:agree: The lengths to which people will go to totally discredit Jon's Targ bonafides just astound me.

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There are too many hints and ironies (especially in the first book) that hint to Jon being a king. Tread with caution on those hints but there are just too many of them not take a serious look at. Hell even In WoW Mercy chapter there is another hint to Jon being king.


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The legitimacy of R+L marriage depends on where you stand. According to the wildlings, there is no problem. The First Men used to practice polygamy. Valyrians practiced polygamy. Plus, they cared little and less about the laws of the gods. The Faith had to swallow Aegon I's marriages involving not only polygamy but also incest. The Lords of Westeros along with the Faith will believe in what is good for them and they will be mostly convinced that Jon is the only person who can unite the Realm after the Second Dance and the Long Night.


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Almost none of this post aligns to a reasonable argument.

North, wildlings fine.

Stannis will never bend to anyone.

Jon shares no Tully blood so while he could claim to be King in the North he has no blood claim over the Trident. I see no reason why the war ravaged Riverlands would listen to a young girl let alone the Vale which she has no hold over whatsoever.

J.C. is running out of time and has raised young Griff, I think he's committed to seeing him on the throne.

Dany never met Rhaegar and has no loyalty to him. She believes the Dragons give her the right to be queen. Like Stannis I don't see her bending.

Edmure swore to the KITN and will again after he is reinstated and Jon emerges, on Sansa's direction. Sansa will be queen and the LP of the Vale and Edmure in RR will owe their positions and prove loyal to her rather than the other half of the crown.

Stannis will die or come to see Jon is the best hope for his realm and take the black. Possibly simply naming Jon his heir and/or promising him Shireen. The Ironborn will follow too if Theon has to cheat death for it to happen. Everything in the North is there for Jon to eventually take the reigns.

JC may die with Aegon but if he lives while Jon emerges, well in basically his own words he lives to seat Rhaegar's son on the iron throne.

Dany does not believe the dragons make her queen, she believes the throne is hers by rights as the sole surviving Targaryen. After tearing the realm in two and fighting a war in which thousands will die to keep a false brother from the throne Dany will not deny a true brother and her rightful king, to do otherwise would be to prove herself the usurper and power mad queen. Her arc is to consider the question of her madness and to answer in the negative.

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Dany will not deny a true brother and her rightful king, to do otherwise would be to prove herself the usurper and power mad queen. Her arc is to consider the question of her madness and to answer in the negative.

So you think Dany is crasy and cant rule the realm? Has she shown any signs of crasyness yet? Does she seem mad?

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