Issue with King Jon I Targaryen theory

[chrisdaw]

So you think Dany is crasy and cant rule the realm? Has she shown any signs of crasyness yet? Does she seem mad?

No I don't think Dany is crazy, and that's what I said. But it being the one thing she fears flags it as central to her arc. And what better way to explore it than to have her wage war to take the throne from a beloved king on the basis that he is false, and then have her confront the real thing.

If she would destroy Aegon because he is false she must bend to Jon or she proves herself a usurper and hypocrite, tags which will manifest in the story as madness.

[sj4iy]

There are too many hints and ironies (especially in the first book) that hint to Jon being a king. Tread with caution on those hints but there are just too many of them not take a serious look at. Hell even In WoW Mercy chapter there is another hint to Jon being king.

This. It's pretty much in every book and is the strongest in the last book. Now, Martin could just be yanking our chain, but he is a big proponent of foreshadowing, and there's a lot on this particular subject.

(Paraphrased) "I won't forget my father no matter how many swords they offer me" seems to be directly foreshadowing Jon being offered the throne one day. There are many, many others.

I don't think it is a certainty by any means, but I think it's a definite possibility.

[Lee-Sensei]

@Chrisdaw 1) Stannis bending the knee to Jon isn't going to happen. He killed his own brother for the Throne.

2) Theon and Jon aren't on good terms and the Ironborn don't like the Northmen so him supporting Jon isn't going to happen if he's put in charge of the Iron Islands.

3) Aegon isn't dead yet.

4) Jon's not a Tully. He's a Stark bastard.

5) Sansa has no power over the Vale.

6) Jon doesn't want the Throne.

[Holly of Harrenhal]

I see an issue with his name. Jon targaryen just doesn't go

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Your OP would have been valid a few years ago, Westerosi time, when succession looked a pretty straightforward business. But recently, the realm has witnessed a magnificent clusterfuck which still goes on. Every imaginable claimant to the throne will be heavily disputed. Jon will not significantly stand out in this company. So, deriving their claim from Robert I Baratheon there's Tommen (a bastard! says who? where's proof?) and Stannis (Tommen's a bastard! sorry, no proof, you people suck); somewhere further down the line Myrcella and Shireen. From Aerys II Targaryen we get Dany (at least her paternity isn't disputed, but... ZOMG a girl!!1!), Aegon (or is he?), and finally Jon would enter the contest (Rhaegar's son? where's proof? Rhaegar's legitimate son? how's that even legal?).

Some of the aforementioned contestants will die in the two next books (not "possibly" nor "likely", just will). The supply of legit claimants will grow thinner still, and even bastards will move up the ladder. Edric Storm will get a serious thought, if reappears in Westeros. So will Jon Snow, if outed as Rhaegar Targaryen's son, no matter, legitimate or natural. Yes, in the eyes of lords of the realm his claim will be weak and disputable. Which is par for the course. No, the entire world will not jointly kneel and shout "All hail King Jon, the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne!". Just like they don't do it for any other kings and wannabe kings.

[Sword of Mutilation]

I see an issue with his name. Jon targaryen just doesn't go

It 's just like david eichiro or something.

But well we don't choose our names.

So you think Dany is crasy and cant rule the realm? Has she shown any signs of crasyness yet? Does she seem mad?

She is not mad...yet.but she is on the right path. And i don't think she is going to be a good queen if all she cares about is if she looks good for her lover... And plus we saw what she did in meeren.

She destroyed and starved the city and drogon is killing children. And now she will probably leave meeren in its current state to go "rule" westeros

[chrisdaw]

@Chrisdaw 1) Stannis bending the knee to Jon isn't going to happen. He killed his own brother for the Throne.

2) Theon and Jon aren't on good terms and the Ironborn don't like the Northmen so him supporting Jon isn't going to happen if he's put in charge of the Iron Islands.

3) Aegon isn't dead yet.

4) Jon's not a Tully. He's a Stark bastard.

5) Sansa has no power over the Vale.

6) Jon doesn't want the Throne.

We're barely halfway through the series, things change. I didn't say Stannis will bend the knee, but if he realises the different forces will not solidify behind Jon for the sake of his realm he may step aside.

If Theon makes it out of the North alive I think he'd well welcome the chance to make amends for what he did to Robb. Redemption arcs.

Jon's not coming South while Aegon is about, Jon doesn't dance, Jon probably won't even be a living man while Aegon dances.

Jon is KITN by Robb's will, Edmure swore to the KITN.

All those pawn to player topics are not for no reason.

It won't be a matter of wanting the throne, it will be a case of someone having to lead the North to survive the Others and warn and prepare the rest of the realm or they're doomed. Contrary to Mormont's thoughts, when the wall falls who sits the Iron Throne and that they're preparing to defend the realm will matter above all else. If Jon has to do it himself he will, or at least bend the IT to the task at hand.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) Doubtful.

2) By swearing fealty to Jon Snow? A fruit basket. maybe. The IB wouldn't accept it.

3) We don't know that Aegon won't be around.

4) Edmure swore to a half Tully. Jon's Ned's bastard.

5) And they stretch things. The Vale isn't going to swear fealty to Jon because a 13 year old girl says so.

6) Except he has nowhere near the strength to take Westeros.

[sj4iy]

1) Doubtful.

Stannis could bend the knee under the right circumstances. He hasn't bent the knee to his 'nephews' or his brother because he believes he has a better claim than them- but that doesn't mean he would NEVER bend the knee to anyone. I wouldn't be so certain about what Stannis will or won't do. Personally, I don't think Stannis or Shireen survives, so it may not even become an issue. But Stannis doesn't truly believe himself to be what Melisandre says he is- and if he were to see Jon IS that person, he might see it as a relief.

2) By swearing fealty to Jon Snow? A fruit basket. maybe. The IB wouldn't accept it.

I don't see Theon surviving, either, so this may be another pointless argument. Theon isn't the ruler of Pyke, though, so it wouldn't matter what he did. He most likely has another part to play in this, anyway.

3) We don't know that Aegon won't be around.

I don't think any of us know exactly what Aegon's true purpose in the story will be at this point.

4) Edmure swore to a half Tully. Jon's Ned's bastard.

No, people THINK Jon is Ned's bastard. People can change their minds with the right evidence. And Jon is Robb's heir by Robb's own will, signed by the other Lords with Robb...Edmure isn't a 'rock the boat' kind of person- if he pledged for Robb, he would pledge for Robb's heir if the realm were at stake.

5) And they stretch things. The Vale isn't going to swear fealty to Jon because a 13 year old girl says so.

I don't see why Sansa is spending so much time in the Vale if she's not somehow going to make a major power play for it. It seems only the natural course of action.

And Sansa would most definitely support Jon in whatever he needed if she has the power to do so, whether she believes he is her bastard brother or whether she finds out that he is her cousin.

6) Except he has nowhere near the strength to take Westeros.

No one does. It hasn't stopped anyone so far.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Your OP would have been valid a few years ago, Westerosi time, when succession looked a pretty straightforward business. But recently, the realm has witnessed a magnificent clusterfuck which still goes on. Every imaginable claimant to the throne will be heavily disputed. Jon will not significantly stand out in this company. So, deriving their claim from Robert I Baratheon there's Tommen (a bastard! says who? where's proof?) and Stannis (Tommen's a bastard! sorry, no proof, you people suck); somewhere further down the line Myrcella and Shireen. From Aerys II Targaryen we get Dany (at least her paternity isn't disputed, but... ZOMG a girl!!1!), Aegon (or is he?), and finally Jon would enter the contest (Rhaegar's son? where's proof? Rhaegar's legitimate son? how's that even legal?).

Some of the aforementioned contestants will die in the two next books (not "possibly" nor "likely", just will). The supply of legit claimants will grow thinner still, and even bastards will move up the ladder. Edric Storm will get a serious thought, if reappears in Westeros. So will Jon Snow, if outed as Rhaegar Targaryen's son, no matter, legitimate or natural. Yes, in the eyes of lords of the realm his claim will be weak and disputable. Which is par for the course. No, the entire world will not jointly kneel and shout "All hail King Jon, the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne!". Just like they don't do it for any other kings and wannabe kings.

:agree:

Power resides where men believe it resides. If enough people decide that Jon is a worthy candidate (because for example he's been instrumental in defeating the Others) and support him, his legitimacy is a non-issue. It's enough if there's a reasonable story or "proof"(even if forged) to explain his origins in order to appease the maesters and the masses. History can then rewrite it later on. At this point, no one is going to support Jon even if he brings his birth certificate signed by Gerold Hightower, 50 eye witnesses from Rhaegar/Lyanna's wedding and Rhaegar's harp.

People support Tommen even thought they know that he's a Lannister bastard. Other nobles will raise fAegon's banners despite suspecting that he's fake simply because it'll be advantageous for them at that moment.

[JonSnow4President]

So you think Dany is crasy and cant rule the realm? Has she shown any signs of crasyness yet? Does she seem mad?

I don't know... hundreds of years of Targaryen glorifying the stereotypical Alabama marriage structure.... It's not big enough, but my avatar seems to suggest she's missing a few screws.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Your OP would have been valid a few years ago, Westerosi time, when succession looked a pretty straightforward business. But recently, the realm has witnessed a magnificent clusterfuck which still goes on. Every imaginable claimant to the throne will be heavily disputed. Jon will not significantly stand out in this company. So, deriving their claim from Robert I Baratheon there's Tommen (a bastard! says who? where's proof?) and Stannis (Tommen's a bastard! sorry, no proof, you people suck); somewhere further down the line Myrcella and Shireen. From Aerys II Targaryen we get Dany (at least her paternity isn't disputed, but... ZOMG a girl!!1!), Aegon (or is he?), and finally Jon would enter the contest (Rhaegar's son? where's proof? Rhaegar's legitimate son? how's that even legal?).

Some of the aforementioned contestants will die in the two next books (not "possibly" nor "likely", just will). The supply of legit claimants will grow thinner still, and even bastards will move up the ladder. Edric Storm will get a serious thought, if reappears in Westeros. So will Jon Snow, if outed as Rhaegar Targaryen's son, no matter, legitimate or natural. Yes, in the eyes of lords of the realm his claim will be weak and disputable. Which is par for the course. No, the entire world will not jointly kneel and shout "All hail King Jon, the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne!". Just like they don't do it for any other kings and wannabe kings.

That's a great post.

But nevermind Jon, personally I have often said that I wish that Aegon is completely fake AND that he ends up king at the end of the serie. After all this non-sense about who is the legitimate heir, that would be the perfect ironic ending. I want a a guy with not one bit of connection to either of the previous two kings to rule because everyone else believes he does have such ties!

Take that, westeros stupid obsession with bloodlines.

[The Bastard of Walton]

The more I read & the more I think about the question of Jon's legitimacy, I'm starting to think it will count for little in the end. As it stands nobody would see the realm & High Lords offering the Throne to a Bastard of a vanquished Dynasty, but in two books a lot of things could happen that would allow for Jon to somehow be made King.

I personally don't believe he will become King, but I believe Jon will be offered the Throne, but will decline it because the Watch will still need to be kept.

[joluoto2]

I don't think Jon will become king.

1) He deserves better

2) Despite being Rhaegar's son the important thing is that he is Lyanna's. He will always be Stark

3) He'd never betray his vows

4) Unfortunately I think he will die a tragic death saving the Realm from the Others.

[Arya Stark Rules]

Jon Targaryen becoming King of the seven kingdoms is mostly fan fiction for me. I agree with the OP and I'll also add that there is no way to prove he is Rhaegar's son, no one is going to believe a crannog in the Neck. This isn't Memory sorrow and thorn.

:agree:

Power resides where men believe it resides. If enough people decide that Jon is a worthy candidate (because for example he's been instrumental in defeating the Others) and support him, his legitimacy is a non-issue. It's enough if there's a reasonable story or "proof"(even if forged) to explain his origins in order to appease the maesters and the masses. History can then rewrite it later on. At this point, no one is going to support Jon even if he brings his birth certificate signed by Gerold Hightower, 50 eye witnesses from Rhaegar/Lyanna's wedding and Rhaegar's harp.

People support Tommen even thought they know that he's a Lannister bastard. Other nobles will raise fAegon's banners despite suspecting that he's fake simply because it'll be advantageous for them at that moment.

Sorry but I dont see why the realm will want to make the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch a King since he is literally doing his job by fighting the others

I don't see why Sansa is spending so much time in the Vale if she's not somehow going to make a major power play for it. It seems only the natural course of action.

And Sansa would most definitely support Jon in whatever he needed if she has the power to do so, whether she believes he is her bastard brother or whether she finds out that he is her cousin.

The Vale Lord's aren't going to support Ned's bastard.

[SevasTra82]

When/if The Others attack, that would essentially mean the Wall has been crumbled (IMO this will probably be the final chapter(s) of TWOW), and when it's all said and done, the Nights Watch will essentially be disbanded. If that comes to pass and The Others are defeated....the Nights Watch duty has been officially completed and be over. If that's the case, Jon will no longer have any "vows" to be tied down to, and free to pick up the pieces and do his own thing again.

Whatever happens, I almost can bet the Wall will crumble and the Nights Watch will become no more IMO.

[trepesoa]

I don't think Jon will become king.

1) He deserves better

2) Despite being Rhaegar's son the important thing is that he is Lyanna's. He will always be Stark

3) He'd never betray his vows

4) Unfortunately I think he will die a tragic death saving the Realm from the Others.

Completely agree. Jon won't survive the final conflict and won't ever come south of The Gift. Westeros will need to go to the wall not the Wall come south to King's Landing. The messy legitimate claims and High Sparrow trials will simply lend public support to Aegon, who I do think is real (why would Varys lie to Kevan before killing him?). Aegon will pull the southern kingdoms together, including Dorne, Danny will show up with Dragons and lead everyone north for the final conflict. Jon has to finish what Azor Ahai started. He's the only one who is both Fire and Ice and it is truly his song that we are listening to. Danny and Aegon will wed and together rule.

[Arya Stark Rules]

When/if The Others attack, that would essentially mean the Wall has been crumbled (IMO this will probably be the final chapter(s) of TWOW), and when it's all said and done, the Nights Watch will essentially be disbanded. If that comes to pass and The Others are defeated....the Nights Watch duty has been officially completed and be over. If that's the case, Jon will no longer have any "vows" to be tied down to, and free to pick up the pieces and do his own thing again.

Whatever happens, I almost can bet the Wall will crumble and the Nights Watch will become no more IMO.

That seems way to forced it would just seem like the author is forcing the plot to make Jon King. Even if the others are defeated it doesn't mean the NW will be disbanded cause know one knows whether there are more up North that will return one day. Westeros is still in the Medieval period so there is still the case of terra incognita, so it would be silly for them to draw such conclusions.

[El Guapo]

When/if The Others attack, that would essentially mean the Wall has been crumbled (IMO this will probably be the final chapter(s) of TWOW), and when it's all said and done, the Nights Watch will essentially be disbanded. If that comes to pass and The Others are defeated....the Nights Watch duty has been officially completed and be over. If that's the case, Jon will no longer have any "vows" to be tied down to, and free to pick up the pieces and do his own thing again.

Whatever happens, I almost can bet the Wall will crumble and the Nights Watch will become no more IMO.

Defeated this time but why wouldn't they asume the Others wouldn't come back? If anything wouldn't they want a new and improved nights watch in case they should ever come back again? Isn't that why they formed the nights watch in the first place because theya ssumes they would have to fight the Others again at some point?

[sj4iy]

Jon Targaryen becoming King of the seven kingdoms is mostly fan fiction for me. I agree with the OP and I'll also add that there is no way to prove he is Rhaegar's son, no one is going to believe a crannog in the Neck. This isn't Memory sorrow and thorn.

Sorry but I dont see why the realm will want to make the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch a King since he is literally doing his job by fighting the others

The Vale Lord's aren't going to support Ned's bastard.

Did you miss the first part of my sentence? Circumstances change- who's to say they will never know who Jon really is? They THINK he's Ned's bastard- but he's really Robb's cousin...if he's their only hope of survival against the Others, then I see no reason they wouldn't support him. And they have no reason to hate Jon because Lysa's dead.