Are the shadowlands and the land of always winter one in the same?

[BaronVonMolotov]

No one has explored the land of always winter or the shadow lands.we do not know what lies north and east of those 2 areas. If this world of fire and ice is round, it seems possible that these 2 places could be one in the same or at least close in location. Looking at the map The shadowlands seem to be far south and across the entire world from the lands of always winter, but this is an unexplored world and im not sure these maps were designed with a true sense of direction.The north and south poles have not been discovered so it's possible that what appears to be north on the map is not in fact true north.

Theres other things that seem to hint at this as well. The greatest Westerosi explorers like Lomas Longstrider and the Sea Snake never sailed so far as to reach Asshai. Yet heres Melisendre of Asshai hanging out in Westeros. That would mean that Melisendre has seen more of the known world than both of these two legendary explorers. That is unless she knows of a shorter, quicker route to Westeros.

In the heart of the Shadowlands beyond Asshai lies Stygai, a Corpse city where even shadowbinders fear to tread. Could this corpse city be the lands of always winter where others and wights dwell? Euron Greyjoy claims to have sailed to Asshai where he obtained the dragon horn that can supposedly bind dragons to his will. It is said that there are "certain things only spoken of in whispers, that can only be found in the black bazzars of asshai." The ancient people of Asshai are believed to have taught the valeryians how to bind dragons so its possible that the horn from Asshai that Euron Gave to Victarion is authentic if he did in fact sail there.

Euron left the iron islands after the grey joy rebellion and returned the day after baylons death. In that time he supposedly traveled to Asshai and back and stopped at several places in between. About 10-15 years I think. Im not sure how long Lomas Longstrider and the sea snakes eastern adventures lasted but id like to find out and compare that to Euron's exile. Did they not reach Asshai because there own explorations lasted less than 10-15 years? Or did they fail to reach Asshai because they took the much longer eastern route? It is said that Euron should have been months away from Pyke, but shows up very shortly after the death of Balon, Some say this suggests he was expecting his brother would die, but what if he was able to return much sooner because he held knowledge of a much shorter quicker route to pyke from the east? im not positive about this theory but i think it raises some interesting questions.

[Archmaester Drew]

Welcome to the forum! :cheers:

No. The map is only about a third of the planet according to calculations people have done using known distances. Planetos is as large or larger than Earth. That means that we are seeing on the maps from about the equivalent of UK to India. There is far too much distance between, and GRRM has indicated there are oceans and unknown continents. :)

[Blazfemur]

I'd beg to differ. Going southeast enough, you'd appear northwest. In the land of always winter. Further suggested by quaithe to danaerys.

I'd say more specifically, the heart of darkness and the heart of winter, are more specifically, one in the same.

[Archmaester Drew]

I'd beg to differ. Going southeast enough, you'd appear northwest. In the land of always winter. Further suggested by quaithe to danaerys.

I'd say more specifically, the heart of darkness and the heart of winter, are more specifically, one in the same.

Certainly, any 'great circle' around a planet will link these two locations, but there is a lot of distance between, with two-thirds of the territory unknown. It's like saying Greenland is connected to Australia. :)

[Trogdor Targaryen]

The Shadowlands are the realm of fire while the lands of always winter are the realm of Ice. I feel like they are opposites in that sense, however, I feel that they are both the lands in which the others dwell, albeit, different others. I also think that the remote parts of the sea are domain to the others, and that each of these will have it's own prince who was promised to fight against the others.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

I'd beg to differ. Going southeast enough, you'd appear northwest. In the land of always winter. Further suggested by quaithe to danaerys.

I'd say more specifically, the heart of darkness and the heart of winter, are more specifically, one in the same.

I think this is how the Iron born came upon the Iron Islands, by taking a Magellan like trip around the entire world landing where they did, as opposed to the other first men who came on the arm of Dorne. I believe this could explain the parallels between the Drowned God and the Great Other, as they would have had to have traveled from the shadowlands, domain of one branch of others, and spent an unenumerated period of time traveling across the domain of an alternate Other, before settling on those Islands which serve as the main part of Westeros that is not a potential realm for the "Old Gods," as weirwoods cannot grow on the infertile, rocky islands.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I don't think so. In the Lands of Ice and Fire there is a map of the Far East which clearly shows that the Shadow lands are not only on Essos, but also to the north of Asshai.

[Fred Dii]

Asshai is apparently a continent with warm climate. It doesn´t make sense to have a cold climate like the lands of always winter right next to it.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I've thought about this too, but GRRM has said that Westeros and Essos don't "connect" by land at any point.

But, I think there is definitely a surprise of one kind or another in store for us regarding the maps. It's just a question of how he pulls it off - but based on how some real life medieval maps were skewed and out of proportion, it could be a pretty big reveal.

POSSIBLE ANSWER:

I'm not saying this is right, but it could explain things at least in part. We assume that we're looking at the northern hemisphere of Planteos, with Westeros/Essos being largely where Eurasia is. This fits in with the Lands of Always Winter being around the North Pole.

However, it's possible that Planetos has a (magically induced, as GRRM said it was magic) weird and extreme axial tilt towards/away from the sun, which causes the bizarre seasons.

A side effect of this would be that Planetos could look like this:

- a very hot pole

- a frozen Equatorial region

- a very cold pole, cooling from the summer heat of the previous summer

So, very different to Earth.

This, in turn, might mean that the Known World is being misrepresented on the maps we've seen. It could be sitting on the Southern Hemisphere, with the South Pole somewhere either on Sothoryos or in Asshai. The Lands of Always Winter are still in a northern direction, but in fact sit around the frozen equator.

This would mean that the map we've seen would "wrap around" completely differently from how we expect it to. If you look at a map of our own Southern Ocean, you will see that the Antarctic gets warped out of proportion really badly. It may even be that Ulthos and Sothoryos are just different coastlines of the same continent.

This would still allow for a lot of unknown landmass to exist elsewhere on Planetos, but would also mean that the widely speculated "shortcuts" like the one via the Sunset Sea to Asshai could in fact exist.

In conclusion: don't trust the map too much. Maps are always biased, and centred/focused in a way that makes sense to the mapmaker. We assume it's done in a way that makes sense to us too, but maybe not.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Some things really seriously need to be addressed here.

Ashai is not a continent, it is a city in Essos.

The shadowlands is a relatively small area that is a valley surrounded by very tall very steep mountains that block the sun keeping the area almost perpetually in shadow.

The entire map we have is northern hemisphere/ a little bit south of the equator and less than half way around the world, and Ashai is near the bottom putting it close to the equator.

There is an area in the northeastern corner of the known world known as the grey waste, it is possible that Essos curves upwards and connects to the lands of always winter, and this would also potentially explain the 5 forts, as well as why there are AA legends in Yi Ti and Ashai as well as Westeros.

[Archmaester Drew]

I've thought about this too, but GRRM has said that Westeros and Essos don't "connect" by land at any point.

But, I think there is definitely a surprise of one kind or another in store for us regarding the maps. It's just a question of how he pulls it off - but based on how some real life medieval maps were skewed and out of proportion, it could be a pretty big reveal.

POSSIBLE ANSWER:

I'm not saying this is right, but it could explain things at least in part. We assume that we're looking at the northern hemisphere of Planteos, with Westeros/Essos being largely where Eurasia is. This fits in with the Lands of Always Winter being around the North Pole.

However, it's possible that Planetos has a (magically induced, as GRRM said it was magic) weird and extreme axial tilt towards/away from the sun, which causes the bizarre seasons.

A side effect of this would be that Planetos could look like this:

- a very hot pole

- a frozen Equatorial region

- a very cold pole, cooling from the summer heat of the previous summer

So, very different to Earth.

This, in turn, might mean that the Known World is being misrepresented on the maps we've seen. It could be sitting on the Southern Hemisphere, with the South Pole somewhere either on Sothoryos or in Asshai. The Lands of Always Winter are still in a northern direction, but in fact sit around the frozen equator.

This would mean that the map we've seen would "wrap around" completely differently from how we expect it to. If you look at a map of our own Southern Ocean, you will see that the Antarctic gets warped out of proportion really badly. It may even be that Ulthos and Sothoryos are just different coastlines of the same continent.

This would still allow for a lot of unknown landmass to exist elsewhere on Planetos, but would also mean that the widely speculated "shortcuts" like the one via the Sunset Sea to Asshai could in fact exist.

In conclusion: don't trust the map too much. Maps are always biased, and centred/focused in a way that makes sense to the mapmaker. We assume it's done in a way that makes sense to us too, but maybe not.

Interesting -- but no, because the sun still rises in the east on Planetos. :)

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Interesting -- but no, because the sun still rises in the east on Planetos. :)

I know there are big question marks there, so all I could think of is: the "magical" aspect of the phenomenon is such that it achieves the effect of a massive axial tilt without necessarily following the physical rules.

I mean, really though we're dealing with magic and GRRM has expressly said so. We bend over backwards to explain things, but he could just go "no the entire planet was meant to turn into a giant snowball due to climate change, but they magically warmed up this one bit of it and that's the Known World. And they can travel super fast because warlocks. The end."

The joys of being the author/god.

[Valyrian Lance]

I know there are big question marks there, so all I could think of is: the "magical" aspect of the phenomenon is such that it achieves the effect of a massive axial tilt without necessarily following the physical rules.

I mean, really though we're dealing with magic and GRRM has expressly said so. We bend over backwards to explain things, but he could just go "no the entire planet was meant to turn into a giant snowball due to climate change, but they magically warmed up this one bit of it and that's the Known World. And they can travel super fast because warlocks. The end."

The joys of being the author/god.

Is it possible that the line of tilt is not perpendicular to the line of spin as it is on Earth at all times, maybe a varying axial tilt?

The other interesting thing about Planetos is the measurement of a year. We measure a year as one full rotation around the sun allowing for all four seasons in the same length of time due to each revolution being reasonably identical. One full rotation around the sun in Planetos would have to be more than one of their "years" to have all four seasons if the planet spun and tilted as ours does. We know that this is not the case because their seasons vary extremely in length (more so the total of all four season varies with the next total or last total and not each season varying with each other) most likely due to a changing of the duration of one orbit. This suggests a fantastical explanation to the orbit and spin of Planetos, therefore debunking all conventional wisdom regarding its geography. However, if we were to use the axis and orbit of earth as the basis for it, Westeros would be 100% contained in the Northern Hemisphere, and their orbital year would be roughly 25 years long or so.

[Blazfemur]

Asshai is apparently a continent with warm climate. It doesn´t make sense to have a cold climate like the lands of always winter right next to it.

you are correct, but look at the map. keep going south east, where do you end up? it's literally right there and i think it's best explained by:

Some things really seriously need to be addressed here.

Ashai is not a continent, it is a city in Essos.

The shadowlands is a relatively small area that is a valley surrounded by very tall very steep mountains that block the sun keeping the area almost perpetually in shadow.

The entire map we have is northern hemisphere/ a little bit south of the equator and less than half way around the world, and Ashai is near the bottom putting it close to the equator.

There is an area in the northeastern corner of the known world known as the grey waste, it is possible that Essos curves upwards and connects to the lands of always winter, and this would also potentially explain the 5 forts, as well as why there are AA legends in Yi Ti and Ashai as well as Westeros.

This. Mountains at high altitude are freezing. Also: Mountains would protect asshai from the immediate conditions that the Others bring with them (im a believer that winter is "attached" to them, and wherever they display dominion, winter has reached that place)

If there is a "wall" (heh, "I am the watcher on the wall", plural) of mountain around asshai, it could hypothetically block winter from reaching them. i would suggest the heart of darkness and heart of winter are located in this mountainous region.

[Dorian Martell]

All you need to do Is look at the maps provided in the IOS app and it shows that there is no connection between the lands of always winter and the shadow lands. They are literally on different parts of the planet.

[Blazfemur]

All you need to do Is look at the maps provided in the IOS app and it shows that there is no connection between the lands of always winter and the shadow lands. They are literally on different parts of the planet.

is the world round, friend?

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

is the world round, friend?

He's a witch! Burn him!!

[Lord Lannister]

I'd beg to differ. Going southeast enough, you'd appear northwest. In the land of always winter. Further suggested by quaithe to danaerys.

I'd say more specifically, the heart of darkness and the heart of winter, are more specifically, one in the same.

This possibility occurred to me as well. Going northwest by southeast would be quite possible by air.

[Dorian Martell]

is the world round, friend?

Yes, and there is still no connection physically, culturally or spiritually between the lands of always winter and the shadowlands. The connection nearest is far south of the lands of always winter and far west of the shadowlands., between Dorne and the disputed lands, and that connection is an island chain

[Black Crow]

I'd say more specifically, the heart of darkness and the heart of winter, are more specifically, one in the same.

As to that might I suggest you read Conrad, thinking the while of Bloodraven as Kurtz :cool4: