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Theon Greyjoy is not gay/bisexual


INCBlackbird

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I am making this thread because of a discussion in another thread (the “is cercei trans?” thread) about this, that doesn’t belong there, and I think it’s time to give it it’s own thread.


There are some people on tumblr who claim that Theon is canonically gay or bisexual. I say this is bullshit. And just to be clear I am not at all homophobic (as some of these people accuse me off when I disagree with them). My best friend is gay and I myself have had a gay relationship. But when I discuss a character I want to discuss the canon, and in canon there is nothing that points towards Theon being gay or bi.


The reasons I get given time and time again for Theon being gay are the following:


  1. Theon has feminine traids:

This is true, Theon has traids that are considered feminine even in our society but DEFINITLY in Westeros. I find it quite offensive that these people assume that when a man has feminine traids they must be gay though (especially ironic since these people are all social justice warriors who claim to be fighting against stereotypes)


  1. Theon dreams about Robb:

Theon dreams about Robb in a clash of kings when he feels guilty, they are nightmares.



Now, Mitt Baratheon told me that they got gay/bi vibes from Theon and thinks he might be denying his sexuality. I want to ask them to give me some passages where they think he’s doing this, because I have read and reread and analysed his chapters many times, and never seen anything that even remotely indicates this.


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Is Theon considered feminine by Westerosi standards in general or just in the Iron Islands?



As for the OP, Theon's sexuality is not something I questioned when I read the books so I haven't given it a lot of thought. I'm curious what textual references people would use to support the case for him being gay.


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I am making this thread because of a discussion in another thread (the “is cercei trans?” thread) about this, that doesn’t belong there, and I think it’s time to give it it’s own thread.

There are some people on tumblr who claim that Theon is canonically gay or bisexual. I say this is bullshit. And just to be clear I am not at all homophobic (as some of these people accuse me off when I disagree with them). My best friend is gay and I myself have had a gay relationship. But when I discuss a character I want to discuss the canon, and in canon there is nothing that points towards Theon being gay or bi.

The reasons I get given time and time again for Theon being gay are the following:

  1. Theon has feminine traids:

This is true, Theon has traids that are considered feminine even in our society but DEFINITLY in Westeros. I find it quite offensive that these people assume that when a man has feminine traids they must be gay though (especially ironic since these people are all social justice warriors who claim to be fighting against stereotypes)

  1. Theon dreams about Robb:

Theon dreams about Robb in a clash of kings when he feels guilty, they are nightmares.

Now, Mitt Baratheon told me that they got gay/bi vibes from Theon and thinks he might be denying his sexuality. I want to ask them to give me some passages where they think he’s doing this, because I have read and reread and analysed his chapters many times, and never seen anything that even remotely indicates this.

What exactly are Theon's "feminine traids"?

And why do you keep throwing around the term "social justice warrior"? What does that even mean?

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Why bother? Any text that I quote that I take as a possible hint that Theon may be repressing a portion of his sexuality will not convince someone who is so devoted to their own internal image of what their favorite character is. I have never argued that there are clear textual clues that Theon is gay, only that, as I got to know the character over the course of five books, he reminded me a lot of people I knew who eventually came out as gay. That doesn't mean it's certain or necessarily that he is gay, just that he seems like someone who is repressing a portion of his sexuality, who has strong emotional ties and dreams about other young male characters, and who has issues with relating to women. He could be repressing some other form of sexuality that would be looked down upon.

I don't get the whole "Theon has feminine traits" though. I don't see anything feminine about him at all, and I like that GRRM does not portray gay characters as effeminate.

try me. I am open for this, that's why I made the thread. the reason why I am so defensive of this mind you, is because I've had this argument many many times and no one ever provided me with anything solid.

also, here's something I wrote about Theon's feminine traits a while back :

Yes, Theon does indeed have traits considered to be feminine. He is, what we would today call, a metrosexual man. And even in today’s society that usually means having to deal with a lot of disrespect and speculations about one’s sexuality. In Theon’s case it was used against him in a different way, obviously gender stereotypes were much stronger and more important in the world of asoiaf then it is in our world and as a result Theon often gets insulted with female insults, being called weak(which was, especially for the iron born en equivalent of femininity), or simply being called a woman, to give a few examples:

“Did Ned Stark dress you like that?” his father interrupted, squinting up from beneath his robe. “Was it his pleasure to garb you in velvets and silks and make you his own sweet daughter?”

Theon felt the blood rising to his face.

“I am no man’s daughter (…) !”

Lord Ramsay wanted his wife clean. “She has no handmaids, poor thing,” he had said to Theon. “That leaves you, Reek. Should I put you in a dress?” He laughed. “Perhaps if you beg it of me. Just now, it will suffice for you to be her bath maid. I won’t have her smelling like you.”

But what were these feminine traits? you ask, well let’s start with the most obvious one:

His obsession with dressing well (and looking nice in general)

I’d like quote a very funny but accurate acok liveblogger here :

“shit is about to go down in winterfell and Theon is like, my hair looks like shit. Theon would you focus!”

Both when he is about to meet his father in pyke and when he’s about to meet asha in winterfell Theon takes a lot of care with how he dresses, taking pride in the clothes he wears, in fact, when he thinks he’s going to he thinks “I’ll not po to my grave in dirty clothes.”

And when Maester Lewin suggest to take the black one of theon’s first thoughts is about his clotes :

“ A brother of the Night’s Watch. […] I have black garb aplenty, once I tear the krakens off Even my horse is black.”

It is even such a prominent and specific feature of Theon that Roose Bolton knows about it :

“Would you prefer to dress in silk and velvet? There was a time when you were fond of such, I do recall.”

“No,” he insisted, shrilly. “No, I only want these clothes. Reek’s clothes. I’m Reek, it rhymes with peek.” His heart was beating like a drum, and his voice rose to a frightened squeak.

There’s a lot more considering theon and clothes/looking good but I think this would be enough to illustrated the idea.

He’s a sub

We all know that Theon has a lot of sex, the most prominent sexual experience we see him have is the one with the captain’s daughter. Whom he treats horribly. The one thing we can definitely say about her is that she is incredibly submissive, she basically does precisely what he wants, even when he tells her straight out that he’s not interested in taking her home with him. He doesn’t seem to be so much into the sex either, while she’s giving him a blow job he’s thinking about his home. The most emotion he seems to get from being with her is annoyance.

As opposed to when he meets asha again for the first time (pretending to be Esgred) she is playing the role of a pretty dominant, confident woman. You could even say a masculine woman (by Westerosi standards) and Theon immediately likes her. He seems pretty eager to please her.

“You would be wherever you liked.”

“I like to be on top.”

Where has this wench been all my life?

Archery

Even when Theon fights gender roles come into play.

“Theon had his bow, and needed nothing else, Once he had saved Bran’s life with an arrow. He hoped he would not need to take it with another, but if it came to that, he would.”

Theon’s weapon of choice is archery which throughout past fiction is a feminine weapon. It is also often regarded as a weapon for cowards, considering the fact that you often don’t come near your enemies. Theon is a very skilled archer but he never gets any appreciation for it. Instead Theon brags about how close he came to the kingslayer during battle, that is what he expresses pride over. Archery is something he enjoys and is very good at but he doesn’t seem to consider it worth mentioning when he’s trying to prove to his uncle how much of a great (manly) warrior he is.

How does he compensate?

It’s pretty clear that his gender issues don’t exactly get appreciated, his family’s response to it is pretty telling.

So Theon compensates the same way he compensates everything else he doesn’t like about himself (because the person he’s trying to please doesn’t like it) by acting the exact opposite!

He tries to look as manly as possible, he degrades the captain’s daughter in particular because she is a very submissive girl and he is on his way home so he knew he must be on his “manliest”. He also tends to use his skills in getting women as a way to evaluate his own capability:

“Theon’s anger flared. He’d led men in war, hunted with a king, won honor in tourney melees, ridden with Brynden Blackfish and Greatjon Umber, fought in the Whispering Wood, bedded more girls than he could name, and yet this uncle was treating him as though he were still a child of ten.”

Theon tries to be what others expect him to be, he tries to act like a what he thinks a greyjoy is supposed to be, he tries to act like a male stereotype. And he overdoes both because he is trying to hide the real him. and it’s a dilemma that GRRM captured perfectly in his 5th chapter in a clash of kings when he is about to meet up with his sister.

“He chose a satin tunic striped black and gold and a fine leather jerkin with silver studs... and only then remembered that his wretched sister put more stock in blades than beauty. Cursing, he tore off the clothes and dressed again, in felted black wool and ringmail.”

Theon takes his time dressing nicely, because it is important to him and he forgets for a moment that it is not what the iron born expect him to do and it is not appreciated. So he gets angry and redresses in clothes he doesn’t like. He cannot be himself, he cannot be who he wants to be he has to pretend to be someone else, someone who holds to gender norms, someone who behaves like a greyjoy would. Theon’s life is a constant internal struggle because he hates himself for not being able to be that person everyone accepts so easily. Just being himself is not an option in Theon’s eyes, because the only things Theon really wants are the things others receive unconditionally love, respect and acceptance. And you cannot fight to be accepted and be yourself at the same time in a world like westeros.

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What exactly are Theon's "feminine traids"?

And why do you keep throwing around the term "social justice warrior"? What does that even mean?

to the feminine traits I already responded in my other reply to you.

as to what a social justice warrior is, they're all over the internet and they're a plague. there's lots of them on tumblr but they're spreading. they're people who claim to be fighting against racism (but are actually racist themselves) and people who claim to be fighting against sexism (but are super sexist themselves) and so on... there's some Theon fans on tumblr who are also social justice warriors and they need Theon to belong to a minority because to social justice warriors white straight cis males are the devil, so they can't like a character who is one. they also claim that Theon is black. either way, if you're interested. this guy explains perfectly what they are, where they came from and why they're such a problem : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B3WQPdqTNs

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to the feminine traits I already responded in my other reply to you.

as to what a social justice warrior is, they're all over the internet and they're a plague. there's lots of them on tumblr but they're spreading. they're people who claim to be fighting against racism (but are actually racist themselves) and people who claim to be fighting against sexism (but are super sexist themselves) and so on... there's some Theon fans on tumblr who are also social justice warriors and they need Theon to belong to a minority because to social justice warriors white straight cis males are the devil, so they can't like a character who is one. they also claim that Theon is black. either way, if you're interested. this guy explains perfectly what they are, where they came from and why they're such a problem :

I don't particularly enjoy that subset of people either but I really don't think that's why they see Theon as bi/gay. There really is something between Theon and Robb that could be construed as more than simple friendship. I don't necessarily think Theon is gay but I understand why some people do.

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I see nothing feminine about wanting to dress well. Nobody other than the Ironborn imply anything about his sexuality because of that, either. The Ironborn are clearly a very homophobic culture, more so than even the rest of Westeros. Those cultures often associate weakness with femininity (in medieval times, "girl" did not mean female, it meant "weak"), and so they are trying to say he's grown soft and weak by implying he is feminine. I don't take that as any sign that Theon might be gay, though it can definitely explain why he would have that aspect of himself so thoroughly repressed.

He does appear to like strong, aggressive women, but that does not make him submissive. It could mean, however, that he is attracted to traits that are often associated with masculinity. A woman who has a repressed desire for other women might find herself attracted to feminine-seeming men without even realizing why.

Archery??? Theon DOES get praise for his archery skills, I remember one point where someone said they would not be in the trouble they were in if all the warriors had Theon's skills with a bow. Cleftjaw praises Theon for his martial ability and tells him he has no doubt that Theon is a brave warrior. There is absolutely nothing historical about the bow being considered a feminine weapon - the only connection I can think of is that the Amazons were said to burn off their right breast so they could draw a bow - this actually shows that ancient people knew that it's not practical for a woman to use a bow. This REALLY seems like stretching.

The reminding himself of how many women he's bedded as a reassurance of his manliness is one of the things that makes me think he might be gay. "Getting lots of girls" is not something at the top of the list of indications that someone is a "Manly Man" amongst the predominately heterosexual. In fact, being TOO into chasing women has been seen as an un-manly trait by some cultures - in some versions of Norse mythology, they believed there were two places you could go in the afterlife. If you were a brave warrior, you got to go to an afterlife where you fought all day and drank all night. If you preferred chasing women over fighting, you went to an afterlife that did not have the fighting, but it did have the drinking all night, and it was also the afterlife all the women went to.

All these are terrible arguments for Theon being gay. I have also never made any of these arguments, which makes me wonder why you are bringing them up in a thread addressed at me. Are you trying to make it look like people who think Theon are gay all do so for bad reasons?

My reasons, as I mentioned before, are based on a gestalt of all of Theon's actions and thoughts. He reminds me so much of a friend of mine from high school who came out in his 20s, and of stories of my uncle when he was young, and other gay people I've known. I think GRRM is deliberately painting the character this way, I don't get any repressed sexuality vibes from any of the other POV characters, but Theon sets off my gaydar something fierce.

Here's an analogy - let's say you had a character who acted in ways that were indicative of being abused as a child. The text never said that the character was beaten as a child, nor did the character ever reminisce about it, they just do and say things that remind the reader of other people abused as children. That could lead one to say "I'm not sure, but Character sure seems like they were abused as a child, they remind me of every child abuse survivor I have ever met." That is not conclusive proof that the person was abused, but the fact that there is no hard evidence of that doesn't invalidate the opinion of the person who sees this.

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to the feminine traits I already responded in my other reply to you.

as to what a social justice warrior is, they're all over the internet and they're a plague. there's lots of them on tumblr but they're spreading. they're people who claim to be fighting against racism (but are actually racist themselves) and people who claim to be fighting against sexism (but are super sexist themselves) and so on... there's some Theon fans on tumblr who are also social justice warriors and they need Theon to belong to a minority because to social justice warriors white straight cis males are the devil, so they can't like a character who is one. they also claim that Theon is black. either way, if you're interested. this guy explains perfectly what they are, where they came from and why they're such a problem : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B3WQPdqTNs

So, are you saying I am racist and sexist because I care about racism and sexism? That's ridiculous.

I'm coining a new term. I'm going to start labelling some people "SJC"s, or "Social Justice Cravens". They are people who are afraid of social justice, either because they fear losing their privilege, or because they hate minorities, or just because they are afraid of challenging societies prejudices. They mock anyone they see taking an interest in social justice and project their own racism and sexism onto those who are pointing out their backward beliefs. I think SJCs are a really big problem on the internet.

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Theon isn't gay, or bisexual. Some of these threads, I don't even know what say? Cersei as a transgendered person? People are seriously projecting with this stuff.



He Is Not Gay.



I don't really see these feminine traits either. Dressing well isn't feminine, he likes to dress well because it's the only tangible, outward manifestation of his status, since he has no guards, or castle or servants of his own. And, he's handsome.



He also is a womanizer, not because he's suppressing his homosexuality, but, because in his circumstances, where he has so little control over anything, and his obsession with his Iron Born heritage, the only thing he can "conquer" are women, so that's what he does, he racks up the numbers because he can't go reaving while he's under Ned Stark's authority.



As far as the dream he as about Robb, em, where he shows up at the table with the REST OF THE DEAD PEOPLE, and then, ends up dead. It isn't eve worth a refutation.


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Theon isn't gay, or bisexual. Some of these threads, I don't even know what say? Cersei as a transgendered person? People are seriously projecting with this stuff.

He Is Not Gay.

I don't really see these feminine traits either. Dressing well isn't feminine, he likes to dress well because it's the only tangible, outward manifestation of his status, since he has no guards, or castle or servants of his own. And, he's handsome.

He also is a womanizer, not because he's suppressing his homosexuality, but, because in his circumstances, where he has so little control over anything, and his obsession with his Iron Born heritage, the only thing he can "conquer" are women, so that's what he does, he racks up the numbers because he can't go reaving while he's under Ned Stark's authority.

As far as the dream he as about Robb, em, where he shows up at the table with the REST OF THE DEAD PEOPLE, and then, ends up dead. It isn't eve worth a refutation.

You are arguing against the strawman the thread starter created, not the people he is arguing against. I've never said that his dressing well was a feminine trait or implied that he was gay.

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I am making this thread because of a discussion in another thread (the “is cercei trans?” thread) about this, that doesn’t belong there, and I think it’s time to give it it’s own thread.

There are some people on tumblr who claim that Theon is canonically gay or bisexual. I say this is bullshit. And just to be clear I am not at all homophobic (as some of these people accuse me off when I disagree with them). My best friend is gay and I myself have had a gay relationship. But when I discuss a character I want to discuss the canon, and in canon there is nothing that points towards Theon being gay or bi.

The reasons I get given time and time again for Theon being gay are the following:

  1. Theon has feminine traids:

This is true, Theon has traids that are considered feminine even in our society but DEFINITLY in Westeros. I find it quite offensive that these people assume that when a man has feminine traids they must be gay though (especially ironic since these people are all social justice warriors who claim to be fighting against stereotypes)

  1. Theon dreams about Robb:

Theon dreams about Robb in a clash of kings when he feels guilty, they are nightmares.

Now, Mitt Baratheon told me that they got gay/bi vibes from Theon and thinks he might be denying his sexuality. I want to ask them to give me some passages where they think he’s doing this, because I have read and reread and analysed his chapters many times, and never seen anything that even remotely indicates this.

You're forgetting every male fictional character who thinks about a man as more as a drinking buddy is gay in fanfiction.

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Nothing in the text puts Theon Greyjoy as gay at all. Granted, GRRM doesn't throw gay in your face the way HBO does, but even considering his way of writing, which usually implies rather than outright states homosexuality, there's nothing to go on with Theon. I would actually like Theon more (and I'm a fan) if he had some kinda crush on Robb, but he doesn't. He's a throughly hetero dudebro. He's not a JonCon, a Rhaegar, a Loras, or a Blackfish, upon whom homosexual behavior might be considered to be likely. Theon likes banging girls. THAT is canon. His gayness is not.


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