Melisandre Chapter

[yankee211]

It kind of makes sense that Bran is warning Mel regarding Jons faith. But if Bran can reach out to Mel, how is that possible unless their are heart trees near the wall. Also, why cant Bran communicate with Jon as he did with Theon.

[sj4iy]

She already gets what awaits him.......He is marching to his DOOM that is crystal clear from the quote.That is why she kept going back to the fires saying "one more time .Just to be certain" because she was hoping that the vision of his Doom would change.That her god would throw the faitful servant a bone.

Then her vision was usurped by BR he showed her Jon Snow.( The question then becomes why and what is the context)

We the readers don't need anything else drawn to follow the herring.Its already made clear with Mel's statement in the end where some readers would bite.That which you use as proof is not proof at all that Jon is AA nor does it support what the author already hinted at with Mel's statement.

"I ask for AA and R'hollor shows me Snow"

He is not AA and R'hlorr is not showing her him....BR is.

...and just how is BR able to manipulate visions that she sees in the flames? That's definitely not a power ever mentioned in the story.

[Aaron of Doomed Valyria]

I don't get the feeling from reading her point of view that she is using Stannis.

I don't get that sense either. To say otherwise seems strange

[Aaron of Doomed Valyria]

I'll not deny that Stannis seems pliable to Malisandre's wiles though.

[wolfmaid7]

...and just how is BR able to manipulate visions that she sees in the flames? That's definitely not a power ever mentioned in the story.

Um your wrong about that.......Precedence has been set for visions to be sent via a medium -with the "glass candles" reported to not only divine but also communicate and give men "dreams and visions".

Pluuuuuus Melisandre has a bit of a problem with sleep for personal demons of her own and what she fear could happen.

"She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream.

Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night.

She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord’s blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by

the wash of heat as if by a lover’s kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour.

One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony,

she thought. Lot Seven."

Yeah,there is precedence with a divining medium.But that is here nor there because of.....see below

Lastly never ever, ever ever, ever ever ,did i say BR manipulated or controlled her visions. I said and i quote " he sent her the visions of Jon" .He infiltrated the medium she was using(flames) to divine with".

[sj4iy]

Um your wrong about that.......Precedence has been set for visions to be sent via a medium -with the "glass candles" reported to not only divine but also communicate and give men "dreams and visions".

Pluuuuuus Melisandre has a bit of a problem with sleep for personal demons of her own and what she fear could happen.

"She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream.

Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night.

She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord’s blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by

the wash of heat as if by a lover’s kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour.

One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony,

she thought. Lot Seven."

Lastly never ever, ever ever, ever ever ,did i say BR manipulated or controlled her visions. I said and i quote " he sent her the visions of Jon" .He infiltrated the medium she was using(flames) to divine with".

Where has the precedent been set for BR to send people visions via flame (the very antithesis of the type of magic that he wields)?

[wolfmaid7]

Where has the precedent been set for BR to send people visions via flame (the very antithesis of the type of magic that he wields)?

Your joking right ?

Dude think !!!! Why/How was BR able to see Mel through the flames ? Think about that and then ask me that question again.... I'll wait.

Note: Fire is also a divination/scrying tool like the glass candle.

I have heard you too many times argue Jon's possible magical affinity with regards to him being part Targ enough to also mention BR is a Targ bastard.....There's your fire.Its ok to admit that this is valid you know,instead of what you've resort to doing.

I don't mean to be snarky but that is being nonsensically picky about nothing.Especially as its crystal clear how he's able to send her the vision of Jon.

[sj4iy]

Your joking right ?

Dude think !!!! Why/How was BR able to see Mel through the flames ? Think about that and then ask me that question again.... I'll wait.

Note: Fire is also a divination/scrying tool like the glass candle.

I have heard you too many times argue Jon's possible magical affinity with regards to him being part Targ enough to also mention BR is a Targ bastard.....There's your fire.Its ok to admit that this is valid you know,instead of what you've resort to doing.

I don't mean to be snarky but that is being nonsensically picky about nothing.Especially as its crystal clear how he's able to send her the vision of Jon.

No, I'm not joking. You are making assumptions about what BR is capable of doing. We know that he can warg; we know that he can see through the weirwoods. We know that he can manipulate dreams. We DON'T know that he can manipulate fire visions, and without some sort of evidence for it, then I don't believe that he was the one sending her those visions through her flames.

To me, this is like people who believe that Melisandre will resurrect Jon because another priest was able to resurrect someone else. We have no proof that she has that capability. She might be able to, but there's nothing in the books PROVING that. Same with BR.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

My take on 'he sees me' was the feeling of noticing Bloodraven having watched her all this time. She was given a vision of BR's 1001 eye spy network.

Just like when Jon dreams of being Ghost, or maybe it's Ghost dreaming with Jon, and Brantree is speaking to them. I don't buy the interpretation that Bran is semi-conscious on his end and projecting future visions onto Jon/Ghost. They're just linked up subconsciously in their sleep, and the greenseeing is taking over.

[wolfmaid7]

No, I'm not joking. You are making assumptions about what BR is capable of doing. We know that he can warg; we know that he can see through the weirwoods. We know that he can manipulate dreams. We DON'T know that he can manipulate fire visions, and without some sort of evidence for it, then I don't believe that he was the one sending her those visions through her flames.

To me, this is like people who believe that Melisandre will resurrect Jon because another priest was able to resurrect someone else. We have no proof that she has that capability. She might be able to, but there's nothing in the books PROVING that. Same with BR.

Again you keep saying he's manipulating her visions.He's NOT manipulating her visions.He just sent her visions of his own something he can do.However, she opened up the window and he just walked through it.This whole assertion of yours that he can't manipulate a fire vision is conflating the issue and its trivial.So im not going to go over again.

You keep thinking Jon is AA and lets agree to disagree.

[sj4iy]

Again you keep saying he's manipulating her visions.He's NOT manipulating her visions.He just sent her visions of his own something he can do.However, she opened up the window and he just walked through it.This whole assertion of yours that he can't manipulate a fire vision is conflating the issue and its trivial.So im not going to go over again.

What you said is a massive contradiction. "He can't manipulate her visions but he can send her some of his own"...that's exactly what I mean by "manipulation". I simply said that we don't know that he CAN do that (which is true- we don't), and you act like I'm an idiot.

You keep thinking Jon is AA and lets agree to disagree.

No- I am simply stating that pattern in that particular vision. IMO, AAR is Jon, Dany or both of them, because I believe that TPTWP is also AAR...and we know that TPTWP is of Aerys and Rhaella's line- so that only leaves us with two real possible candidates.

[wolfmaid7]

I disagree with what you call a pattern because.

1.The connections are not as you depicted. Why because you're ignoring that she has seen what awaited Stannis she just didn't like what she saw.

2.This arguement that he can't manipulate visions is loose.She is the one who opened up a seeing channel at the Wall. If your able to be a part of a psychic link like that communication is two way. It doesn't matter the mode.

3.You are saying that these visions are all what awaited Jon Snow thus it is a pattern.What you call patterns aren't concluding he is AA because there are several confounders including its origin. Unless your thinking R'hllor is the one that whispered his name to her in the flames.

4.Lastly, we are forgetting Ageon who until he's proven fake is in the mix.

Im not saying your an idiot but your arguement against Mel being sent the vision of Jon is ignoring the subtle hints and plain reason. From the moment BR and Bran appeared in that vision it was time to take notice.

Again unless your saying R'hollor was the one whispering Jon's name.

[sj4iy]

I disagree with what you call a pattern because.

1.The connections are not as you depicted. Why because you're ignoring that she has seen what awaited Stannis she just didn't like what she saw.

There was nothing in that vision that 'awaited' Stannis. She saw dead rangers, BR and Bran, Hardhome, Jon's stabbing and towers crumbling next to the sea with dragon shadows. Absolutely NOTHING awaited Stannis there. She says "I see only Snow"...which is NOT the fluffy white stuff. Especially since she says to Jon that she sees him every time she looks into the flames. Now tell me, where do YOU think she is seeing what awaits Stannis specifically?

2.This arguement that he can't manipulate visions is loose.She is the one who opened up a seeing channel at the Wall. If your able to be a part of a psychic link like that communication is two way. It doesn't matter the mode.

It's not 'loose' - you are jumping to conclusions. I refuse to do the same.

3.You are saying that these visions are all what awaited Jon Snow thus it is a pattern.What you call patterns aren't concluding he is AA because there are several confounders including its origin. Unless your thinking R'hllor is the one that whispered his name to her in the flames.

I'm saying they are all what awaits Jon because they ARE. I don't know the origins of her visions no more than I know the origins of the magic of the Old Gods. It's just 'there', just like magic. BR surely hasn't been talking to her through the flames since Asshai, if that's what you're getting at. Unless you think he's so damn powerful that he can control all of the visions of everyone who has them- which I don't.

4.Lastly, we are forgetting Ageon who until he's proven fake is in the mix.

I haven't forgot Aegon- I just don't see him being a factor in this. Whether he's real or fake, he was introduced too late to be THAT important to the story.

Im not saying your an idiot but your arguement against Mel being sent the vision of Jon is ignoring the subtle hints and plain reason. From the moment BR and Bran appeared in that vision it was time to take notice.

Again unless your saying R'hollor was the one whispering Jon's name.

I don't know who the hell was whispering Jon's name. But I refuse to believe that BR has been giving Melisandre every vision regarding Jon, because that makes no sense whatsoever.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

wolfmaid and sj4iy,
Your discussion has prompted me to look more closely at the scene and I found it very interesting.

Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The beginning with swirls of gold and scarlet seems to be the colors of Stannis' flaming heart banners. The terrifying and seductive, strange shapes are hard to interpret but it is most likely connected to the battle. Never noticed this before but shadows as skulls which turn to mist sounds very much like Melisandre's own shadow babies. More fodder for the R'hollor = Great Other debate. Winged shadows = dragons?

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away. A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment ... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

This definitely sounds like her visions are indeed hijacked: crumbled and blew away is different than just melting and dissolved of the visions just before this. And then BR appears.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained. Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

The first part of this vision shows the dance between ice and fire but it ends with the cold putting out the fires. Possible interpretation: The Great Other will definitely win the dance and bring the Winds of Winter which neither R'hollor nor Melisandre will be able to stop.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

This possibly points to Jon not be dead but merely surrounded by it? The flames calling out Snow is interesting. It is either BR or R'hollor himself is trying to have Melisandre understand what she refuses to understand. I'm not sure that this image is meant to show that Jon is a threat for Melisandre though unless the skulls are meant to show danger and not death.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

I suppose this is the ominous part. It does imply that Jon is connected with either danger or death and not particularly for Melisandre. That's not the impression I get from this scene. It seems to be implying a much larger scale.

Again you keep saying he's manipulating her visions.He's NOT manipulating her visions.He just sent her visions of his own something he can do.However, she opened up the window and he just walked through it.This whole assertion of yours that he can't manipulate a fire vision is conflating the issue and its trivial.So im not going to go over again.

You keep thinking Jon is AA and lets agree to disagree.

The last part of her this scene does seem to support that Melisandre (and the reader) should assume Jon is the AA regardless of whether it comes from R'hollor or the Great Other:

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow.

Why would a reader not see this as endorsement of the theory, especially given how it's written and how the rest of the visions are shown?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

What you said is a massive contradiction. "He can't manipulate her visions but he can send her some of his own"...that's exactly what I mean by "manipulation". I simply said that we don't know that he CAN do that (which is true- we don't)...

Some readers have inferred that BR, as a greenseer mostly gone "into the trees" at this point, may well have the ability to interfere with flame-readings - as the Ghost of High Heart says to Thoros:

Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, youll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.

[wolfmaid7]

There was nothing in that vision that 'awaited' Stannis. She saw dead rangers, BR and Bran, Hardhome, Jon's stabbing and towers crumbling next to the sea with dragon shadows. Absolutely NOTHING awaited Stannis there. She says "I see only Snow"...which is NOT the fluffy white stuff. Especially since she says to Jon that she sees him every time she looks into the flames. Now tell me, where do YOU think she is seeing what awaits Stannis specifically?

It's not 'loose' - you are jumping to conclusions. I refuse to do the same.

I'm saying they are all what awaits Jon because they ARE. I don't know the origins of her visions no more than I know the origins of the magic of the Old Gods. It's just 'there', just like magic. BR surely hasn't been talking to her through the flames since Asshai, if that's what you're getting at. Unless you think he's so damn powerful that he can control all of the visions of everyone who has them- which I don't.

I haven't forgot Aegon- I just don't see him being a factor in this. Whether he's real or fake, he was introduced too late to be THAT important to the story.

I don't know who the hell was whispering Jon's name. But I refuse to believe that BR has been giving Melisandre every vision regarding Jon, because that makes no sense whatsoever.

Dude look at the beginning of the quote again. The reason Mel kept going back ti the flames over and over.The flames showed her that Stannis is marching to his doom.That is what YOU keep ignoring. That's what she kept seeing and could not accept.

Your whole conclusion drawn from the visions are connected to Jon ignore Mel's continued venture in the flames, ignore that it is because she already seen what awaited Stannis is the reason she kept going back, ignore the presence of two people in her visions who use telepathic abilities to communicate via dreams, ignore that there is precedence that Mel's scrying into her flames given her location could very well have been infiltrated.

Then to top it of you throw that bogus arguement on a clearly solid red herring. Mel already gave us the bit about "I ask for AA and R'hollo shows me Snow".Your better off leaving it like that than trying to make a conclusion where you ignore key facts.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The last part of her this scene does seem to support that Melisandre (and the reader) should assume Jon is the AA regardless of whether it comes from R'hollor or the Great Other:

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow.

Why would a reader not see this as endorsement of the theory, especially given how it's written and how the rest of the visions are shown?

It's definitely an interesting chapter to reread. My own feeling is that Martin included a Mel POV, in part, to show us the earnestness of her faith. In other words - while there's a little bit of showmanship (powders, etc), Mel is not insincere in plugging of Stannis as R'hllor's chosen hero. That's the sort of thing Martin's readers have learned not to take for granted in non-POV characters, so with this chapter from Mel he puts certain suspicions to rest.

Re: the last part of the flame-reading mentioned above... it definitely looks like an endorsement of the Jon=AA theory. But again - many of Martin's readers have learned to be suspicious. And not just of characters, but of Martin's own storytelling. For some, that last line is almost too obvious to be taken at face value.

[wolfmaid7]

wolfmaid and sj4iy,

Your discussion has prompted me to look more closely at the scene and I found it very interesting.

Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The beginning with swirls of gold and scarlet seems to be the colors of Stannis' flaming heart banners. The terrifying and seductive, strange shapes are hard to interpret but it is most likely connected to the battle. Never noticed this before but shadows as skulls which turn to mist sounds very much like Melisandre's own shadow babies. More fodder for the R'hollor = Great Other debate. Winged shadows = dragons?

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away. A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment ... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

This definitely sounds like her visions are indeed hijacked: crumbled and blew away is different than just melting and dissolved of the visions just before this. And then BR appears.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained. Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

The first part of this vision shows the dance between ice and fire but it ends with the cold putting out the fires. Possible interpretation: The Great Other will definitely win the dance and bring the Winds of Winter which neither R'hollor nor Melisandre will be able to stop.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

This possibly points to Jon not be dead but merely surrounded by it? The flames calling out Snow is interesting. It is either BR or R'hollor himself is trying to have Melisandre understand what she refuses to understand. I'm not sure that this image is meant to show that Jon is a threat for Melisandre though unless the skulls are meant to show danger and not death.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

I suppose this is the ominous part. It does imply that Jon is connected with either danger or death and not particularly for Melisandre. That's not the impression I get from this scene. It seems to be implying a much larger scale.

The last part of her this scene does seem to support that Melisandre (and the reader) should assume Jon is the AA regardless of whether it comes from R'hollor or the Great Other:

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow.

Why would a reader not see this as endorsement of the theory, especially given how it's written and how the rest of the visions are shown?

Firstly, the issue I have with the previous poster is how he presented and edited the quote in such a slanted fashion that ignore other more viable conclusions.

Secondly, im in no way saying that readers should ignore what GRRM clearly wanted to be drawn. I'm saying it's a red herring and the aspects of that vision to me say clearly that it is.

What you presented could very well be symbolism for whats happening but that to is neither here nor there.

The issue is the previous poster is saying Mel asked a question received an answer but didn't recognize it.Im saying that the way in which he drew his conclusion is not needed and it is flawed because.

1.Mel did see what awaited Stannis.She kept reading the flames hoping the image of him marching to his doom would change.

2.The presence of BR and Bran the fact that she could tell BR saw her meaning its two way.Why also because this woman who never feels cold was able to feel that through her vision.

3.The context after BR and Bran entered and the fact that Jon's name was whispered then we see what in essence is calamity is saying we should watch the context.

Mel drew hers that Jon is surrounded by death ergo he's in danger.Another conclusion he is himself dangerous.

Also, whose speaking we've seen this with Varys and his balls and MMD.These are stuff to consider.

[wolfmaid7]

There is a nice quote from Anne Grolle about how GRRM likes to reveal info.I'll post that in a bit.

[sj4iy]

Firstly, the issue I have with the previous poster is how he presented and edited the quote in such a slanted fashion that ignore other more viable conclusions.

I didn't slant anything- I gave my interpretation. I don't even know what you are arguing at this point. I don't even get why you think this somehow tells her that Stannis is "marching to his doom" because there's absolutely nothing concerning Stannis IN the vision. So if you want to interpret it differently- go right ahead. But don't act like you have some superior knowledge concerning a vague vision that we don't even have any answers for yet- because you don't. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But you can't prove it at this point, anymore than you can prove you are right.

Secondly, im in no way saying that readers should ignore what GRRM clearly wanted to be drawn. I'm saying it's a red herring and the aspects of that vision to me say clearly that it is.

Same could be said for Dany- and really, she fits it better than Jon at this point and has done since book 2, so really, I would say that this line of thinking is sort of ridiculous since Jon isn't even the #1 candidate at this point.

What you presented could very well be symbolism for whats happening but that to is neither here nor there.

The issue is the previous poster is saying Mel asked a question received an answer but didn't recognize it.Im saying that the way in which he drew his conclusion is not needed and it is flawed because.

LOL, this is a ridiculous accusation. I don't see how my way is more "flawed" than what anyone else (yourself included) has presented.

{1.Mel did see what awaited Stannis.She kept reading the flames hoping the image of him marching to his doom would change.

2.The presence of BR and Bran the fact that she could tell BR saw her meaning its two way.Why also because this woman who never feels cold was able to feel that through her vision.

3.The context after BR and Bran entered and the fact that Jon's name was whispered then we see what in essence is calamity is saying we should watch the context.

Mel drew hers that Jon is surrounded by death ergo he's in danger.Another conclusion he is himself dangerous.

Also, whose speaking we've seen this with Varys and his balls and MMD.These are stuff to consider.

Where does Mel see Stannis "marching up his doom"? I am utterly lost as to how one draws this conclusion from several unrelated visions that had nothing of Stannis in them.